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Post by abstamaria on Jul 20, 2014 9:49:26 GMT
There is a study that concluded that dedicated practice accounts for almost all – at least 80% - of the difference between an elite performer and the dedicated amateur. That was the inspiration for the “10,000 hour rule” – the number of hours said needed for expert performance. The study applies to sports, music, chess and other endeavors.
That is good news for talent-challenged people like me. At least, there is hope.
A new paper, reported in this week’s International New York Times (the former International Herald Tribune, an excellent newspaper), attributes a smaller contribution to practice – about 20% - and making inborn talent a more important factor. This is bad news for me.
However, the new paper has been criticized because it lumped playing for fun and casual practice into “practice.” The older study suggests that it is dedicated study that is critical and which would account for the 80% difference. That would be practice, for instance, with a teacher providing critique and continually upping the standard. I think I agree with this view, which supports the first study.
The paper also reported that scientists separately have found actual performance – a form of dedicated practice I suppose - an important component. For guitarists, I think that is true. My level skills rose steeply with shows for a paying audience (but admittedly they were pretty dismal to start with, so any improvement was monumental).
I thought this might be interesting for us guitarists here.
Andy
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Post by fender7 on Jul 20, 2014 10:33:00 GMT
An interesting point Andy.I think self discipline plays a big part in putting oneself that little bit further.Ive had to learn la bamba last week..to put on stage for a private function last night.
Basically, it took me all week to learn it note for note (3 ish hours per day)(with the help of a slow downer).
I'm sure others could learn it faster, but this is how long it took me !
I was totally satisfied..and pleased with myself when i could finally tell myself i was happy with it.
In the early 80s, in my late teens,i seem to knock out three new songs a day.I guess now I'm 47 it takes longer,especially when i put my pick down ,and cant remember where i put it.
As you said Andy,and was said in previous threads,whether it be music, sport,acting etc, true dedication can mean dedicating your life to it.Many experts have sacrificed childhoods,marriages,jobs etc, to become part of that elite group.
One well known shred master apparently practices for eight hours a day..not even stopping to eat.
makes my three hours a day look embarrassing i guess...which is probably why I'm playing legions and conservative clubs....and not the o2 or Cardiff arms park i guess lol.
Now...........wheres my guitar. Cheers......steve.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 11:07:10 GMT
don't buy that for a second, it depends on the individual, some people just have a natural talent ,so pick things up very quickly and can produce a professional performance very quickly, and on the other hand some people can take months just to get a tune sounding right  |
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Post by rosemary on Jul 20, 2014 11:12:42 GMT
Hi Andy
This is a very interesting subject for me as after last weekend's club meeting I've decided I need to take a 2 month break from playing live at our meetings to be able to progress further with technique and other aspects of guitar playing. Last weekend I played all four songs with no 'major' mistakes but that was only through intensively practising the same songs over and over and over - even though I knew three out of four of them very well and the 4th fairly well.
At my current playing level and as long as there are no really difficult technical parts in them, repetition is the only chance I have of being able to play them to the best of my ability at home in a live environment. Even then the nerves can cause unpredictable mistakes but the more repetition the more confident I am.
Practising the same songs repeatedly though takes up a lot of practice time. It helps me generally with other songs and sometimes I find tricky parts of other songs seem to fall magically into place but I need to move forward a bit on other songs and technique. Hence the short break from playing four songs live once a month. Already I'm practising harder songs, chords and some more technique and am enjoying the freedom of being able to play whatever I feel like although I know I'll miss not playing next meeting as I love playing with the band - but I definitely intend to go back to playing at our meetings again soon.
Experienced players might not need to practise as much but for me it's the only way.
Best wishes
Rosemary
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Post by brileary on Jul 20, 2014 11:53:19 GMT
Rosemary, have you considered playing blues? All you need to learn are the major and minor pentatonic scales and those scales can be played anywhere on the fretbaord. Look for a You Tube tut on lessons, 8 bar or 12 bar blues, relatively simple; that's pure repetition of scale playing.
Bri
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Post by kipper on Jul 20, 2014 11:59:24 GMT
practise makes perfect so the saying goes, i think for the home bedroom player just enjoy it. thats why i started playing. its the same with the golf at the moment the average person will never achieve what the pros do unless you dedicate yourself to it, so no good beating yourself up about it or it will turn into a chaw just enjoy it for what you can do. ps unless you want to be a pro that is. i also agree with dave d. peter
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Post by fender7 on Jul 20, 2014 12:37:54 GMT
Of course there are naturally talented people out there who wont need to put in as many hours as some,i agree.Tho i stand by what i said. Even the natural genius will dedicate most of his life to strive for the next level.If not for practise,for the next level of creativity..unless self destruction gets in first.
I agree with Kipper.Once it gets to the point of non enjoyment,its time to question it..unless your lucky enough to have your record label on your back,screaming for the next thriller album..Cheers.....Steve
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Post by noelford on Jul 20, 2014 14:32:52 GMT
The one thing I don't think you can really teach is empathy with the music you are playing and playing with real feeling. Playing all the right notes in the right order and keeping time, is simply not enough.
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Post by philc on Jul 20, 2014 14:40:24 GMT
Rosemary, have you considered playing blues? All you need to learn are the major and minor pentatonic scales and those scales can be played anywhere on the fretbaord. Look for a You Tube tut on lessons, 8 bar or 12 bar blues, relatively simple; that's pure repetition of scale playing. Bri Bri, not quite sure if that's the case as just playing those scales repetivelly won't make you a blues player.....there's a bit more to it than that As for the theme of this thread, practicing will help you play better, but practicing every hour of the day will not necessarily make you into a great player. Everyone has their own level, this applies to not just music. Phil |
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Post by allclaphands on Jul 20, 2014 15:56:04 GMT
You got to admit playing a guitar is very enjoyable what ever level your at.Better IMO to play than not to play what ever style or tune
rhythm lead or Bass some people envy not being able to play and some even say they can't be interested in it they don't know what
there missing but I suppose they don't care anyway.I have never heard of anyone amateur or professional getting anywhere without
Practicing.The skill levels and equipment might be better and higher than others but it does not diminish the enjoyment of playing
your guitar what ever you have or how you play.To my knowledge there's only one Hank Marvin but it does not stop someone
playing the same tunes as him but probably not as good or so.Just as a thought I wonder who Hank when first picking up the guitar
tried to model his self on.
Pete
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jul 20, 2014 16:03:05 GMT
A list of multi millionaires with no talent? No, not unless you can afford all the legal costs! |
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Post by philc on Jul 20, 2014 16:14:32 GMT
What about the talent they have for making money Phil |
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Post by abstamaria on Jul 20, 2014 16:15:59 GMT
I was reading the research, much of which covered musicians. At the very, very top levels, the marked common ingredient was the number of hours of practice, the mythical 10,000 hours. They seem to say talent will allow one to learn a piece faster, but if that person is satisfied at a certain point with his performance, a musician of lesser talent who keeps practicing may surpass him. Between two persons of equal talent, the diligent one will be the better performer.
Of course, us bedroom musicians are not in the equation, the top level of our category being "dedicated amateur." To reach the very top echelons, the super elite performers, the difference will be practice. 10,000 hours of it.
They say that's true of sports, music, and similar endeavors. I was reminded of a film on the choreographer Bob Fosse. His dancers were complaining why they had to keep repeating a routine they already knew. They were told they didn't have to; they could just quit the company.
I'm just reporting!
Andy
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Post by driftin on Jul 20, 2014 16:22:38 GMT
I think it was a chet atkins quote,.... when told he was lucky to be able to play as he did, he replied,,,, that its amazing, that the more I practise, the luckier I get !..........so I guess you can pick the bones outa' that
regards
les
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Post by abstamaria on Jul 20, 2014 16:27:48 GMT
Rosemary, I think you are doing the right thing. I was quite curious about the research papers and read a comment in one of the articles on the subject that practicing the scales each time, practicing something you already know, improving on it, and then learning something new is a beneficial routine that produces good results. Playing for fun or "in a group" wasn't the type of dedicated practice the studies refer to.
I remember one of the Beatles recounting that in India he would wake up and hear Ravi Shankar going through his scales. That struck me, a musician of his caliber practicing the scales each morning.
Steve (Fender7), I agree with you. I suppose ultimately personality has a lot to do with it. Someone who is passionate and disciplined and willing to push himself beyond the point when it's no longer fun anymore, given sufficient talent, will be more likely in the elite tier.
Andy
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Post by meladdison on Jul 20, 2014 20:26:57 GMT
Hi Andy This is a very interesting subject for me as after last weekend's club meeting I've decided I need to take a 2 month break from playing live at our meetings to be able to progress further with technique and other aspects of guitar playing. Last weekend I played all four songs with no 'major' mistakes but that was only through intensively practising the same songs over and over and over - even though I knew three out of four of them very well and the 4th fairly well. At my current playing level and as long as there are no really difficult technical parts in them, repetition is the only chance I have of being able to play them to the best of my ability at home in a live environment. Even then the nerves can cause unpredictable mistakes but the more repetition the more confident I am. Practising the same songs repeatedly though takes up a lot of practice time. It helps me generally with other songs and sometimes I find tricky parts of other songs seem to fall magically into place but I need to move forward a bit on other songs and technique. Hence the short break from playing four songs live once a month. Already I'm practising harder songs, chords and some more technique and am enjoying the freedom of being able to play whatever I feel like although I know I'll miss not playing next meeting as I love playing with the band - but I definitely intend to go back to playing at our meetings again soon. Experienced players might not need to practise as much but for me it's the only way. Best wishes Rosemary Hi Rosemary, I found your comments really interesting as I have also had the same problems as yourself, With me though, I found the more I practised a particular track the more my mind would wander away from playing and I would make simple mistakes then the nerves come in and so on. My remedy to this was not to learn to play just one track at a time, but perhaps three or four tracks, in that way you need to really concentrate and not allow the mind to wander or to think here we go again. You can play, otherwise you would not be playing lead in front of an audience, your mind may be bored with hearing the same thing time and time again, it just might need refreshing. Try learning a number of tracks in the same rehearsal session - it may take a little longer but you should not get bored or so frustrated and you will be learning a number of tracks rather than one. Don't stop playing in front of people otherwise you may face another challenge in a few months time, anyway applause gives you confidence. I hope you don't think I am telling you what to do, I am simply trying to help. I wish you every success in your rehearsal sessions. Kind regards, Mel |
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Post by noelford on Jul 20, 2014 21:14:16 GMT
I think it was a chet atkins quote,.... when told he was lucky to be able to play as he did, he replied,,,, that its amazing, that the more I practise, the luckier I get !..........so I guess you can pick the bones outa' that regards les Not Chet Atkins, it was the golfer, Arnold Palmer who famously said that, Les. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 21:38:28 GMT
i find that naturally gifted players have a feel for the guitar and the notes they play, its something that you cant learn no matter how much you practise, its inbuilt,its this that sets them apart from us mere mortals, that practise from now until Domesday , but never quite get there, |
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Post by philc on Jul 20, 2014 23:19:13 GMT
Like I said, everyone get's to their own limit, no matter how much practicing you do, you will only reach that limit, you will not get past it.
Phil
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Post by abstamaria on Jul 21, 2014 0:40:39 GMT
I tend to agree with you, Phil. The studies suggest though that individual limits are much higher than we assume, but we have to spend long hours to reach them. Certainly the gifted will have higher limits, but if they accept a lower standard of success will never achieve them. They may be surpassed. Thinking about that more, I see many examples in school, work, sports.
Everyone knows this joke, but I researched a bit on it. You all might all find this bit of trivia interesting.
"Rumor is that a pedestrian on Fifty-seventh Street, Manhattan, stopped Jascha Heifetz and inquired, "Could you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?" "Yes," said Heifetz. "Practice!"
This old joke has become part of the folklore of the hall, but its origins remain a mystery. According to The New York Times, the main player in the story has been described at various times as either an unnamed man, violinist Jascha Heifetz or the pianist Arthur Rubinstein. On its webpage Carnegie Hall quotes the wife of violinist Mischa Elman as having perhaps the best story of its origin: "One day, after a rehearsal that hadn’t pleased Elman, the couple was leaving Carnegie Hall by the backstage entrance when they were approached by two tourists looking for the hall’s entrance. Seeing his violin case, they asked, 'How do you get to Carnegie Hall?' Without looking up and continuing on his way, Elman simply replied, 'Practice.'” "
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Post by abstamaria on Jul 21, 2014 6:03:09 GMT
Our bass guitarist Anna sends daily uplifting text (sms) messages to some of her friends. Today's seemed relevant. "If you put a limit on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus and you must not stay there. You must go beyond them." Bruce Lee
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Post by philc on Jul 21, 2014 6:49:50 GMT
I agree, as I said, we all have our limits, but we should strive to go beyond them.
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Post by George Lewis on Jul 21, 2014 8:39:33 GMT
Our bass guitarist Anna sends daily uplifting text (sms) messages to some of her friends. Today's seemed relevant. "If you put a limit on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus and you must not stay there. You must go beyond them." Bruce Lee Hi Andy, Let's not forget Bruce Lee died at 32. Burning the candle at both ends is spectacular .. but does shorten the candle's life. Not withstanding the occasional "exceptional natural talent", I do favour the Arnold Palmer/Chet Atkins/Hank Marvin/anyone accomplished view that lots of practice is essential ! Cheers George |
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Post by allclaphands on Jul 21, 2014 8:42:12 GMT
I agree, as I said, we all have our limits, but we should strive to go beyond them. Very much so,and the more people young or old that are encouraged to pick up and learn to play a musical instruments the better. Those with the will to try to win rather than only just take part.The can do will do attitude to life,The drive to always try to do better, To save things rather than squander things in life.Some people just buy guitars to say they have them and hang them on the wall,I know people like this,when you ask them why they don't play them its a shrug of the shoulders and a remark like "I will one day" why not make that day today I say even offer to pass on my limited experience to them but its declined.They can talk a good story about there guitars but they can't play them They just like the thought of owning them and saying its like a Fender but not a Fender ect. It's so refreshing to be on this site among so many people with a talent and a interest in guitars/tunes and instruments ect and a willingness to communicate things rather than to be to superior about things and to be to aloof about other people Keep Smiling Pete |
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Post by baz on Jul 21, 2014 9:32:31 GMT
The quote "the more I practice the luckier I get" is actually attributable to golfer Gary Player (who was a great colleague of Arnie Palmer) who made it to a spectator (on television) who had the nerve to describe (in Player's hearing), the fact that he had holed out from a bunker as a fluke.
Same principle ....just a different application.
Baz
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Post by rosemary on Jul 21, 2014 10:43:28 GMT
Hi Bri, Andy and Mel
Mel, part of the reason for taking a break from playing live at our club is to try to progress with all the half finished or new songs especially the difficult ones and there are a lot of songs that have parts where I don't yet have the technique mastered to play them. I have no trouble learning the melody parts of songs but when there are a lot of chords, bends and so on it takes a long time for me to work out those parts of the songs and/or get them smooth. I therefore have songs that are sort of 90% ready to play but can't get past the last 10%. I've tried playing the difficult parts over and over but I have to be patient as usually it's something I'm not doing properly - like the angle of my hand or something which doesn't allow me to reach a fret. These types of things often click into place suddenly one day but take a long time.
Everyone plays for different reasons but I suppose my main aim now is to continually learn new songs to play live at our club as I enjoy playing with others most of all. At present there'd be about 20 or so songs I'd be reasonably comfortable to play live but to play 4 different songs each month is only 5 months. Playing at the club is very good for me as it's made me practise a lot harder than I would have otherwise but now I need to take some time out to try to improve my technique and work on more chords, new songs and the half finished ones.
Bri, I'm not a fan of blues as such but realise a lot of the rock'n'roll I really like is based a lot on it so will definitely check it out and think that would also help with some improvisation if ever I got to a stage where I'd be able to back a singer etc.
Thanks for your tips
Best wishes
Rosemary
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Post by meladdison on Jul 21, 2014 11:43:46 GMT
Hi Bri, Andy and Mel Mel, part of the reason for taking a break from playing live at our club is to try to progress with all the half finished or new songs especially the difficult ones and there are a lot of songs that have parts where I don't yet have the technique mastered to play them. I have no trouble learning the melody parts of songs but when there are a lot of chords, bends and so on it takes a long time for me to work out those parts of the songs and/or get them smooth. I therefore have songs that are sort of 90% ready to play but can't get past the last 10%. I've tried playing the difficult parts over and over but I have to be patient as usually it's something I'm not doing properly - like the angle of my hand or something which doesn't allow me to reach a fret. These types of things often click into place suddenly one day but take a long time. Everyone plays for different reasons but I suppose my main aim now is to continually learn new songs to play live at our club as I enjoy playing with others most of all. At present there'd be about 20 or so songs I'd be reasonably comfortable to play live but to play 4 different songs each month is only 5 months. Playing at the club is very good for me as it's made me practise a lot harder than I would have otherwise but now I need to take some time out to try to improve my technique and work on more chords, new songs and the half finished ones. Bri, I'm not a fan of blues as such but realise a lot of the rock'n'roll I really like is based a lot on it so will definitely check it out and think that would also help with some improvisation if ever I got to a stage where I'd be able to back a singer etc. Thanks for your tips Best wishes Rosemary Hi Rosemary, I am just pleased you are not getting fed up and frustrated, you sound as keen as ever, I know what you mean about the difficult bits, I have that problem at present with Kon-Tiki, but you are right, one day something clicks and suddenly you are there. Lovely to share our experiences. Kind regards, Mel |
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Post by noelford on Jul 21, 2014 13:38:11 GMT
Rosemary, I don't understand why you need to stop playing at your club. My own club is very relaxed and we don't expect/demand perfect performances from everyone - that would be pretty boring! We encourage experimenting and playing material that hasn't been previously rehearsed. I often include unrehearsed material - it may not be perfect but it's fun.
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Post by rosemary on Jul 22, 2014 8:56:15 GMT
Hi Noel
It's just a short break - 2 meetings - and I'll be playing again in October. It's very relaxed at our club too so there's no pressure on us either but I suppose I put a bit of pressure on myself to try to play as well as my current level at home so once I add my songs I'll start practising them over and over at home which doesn't leave as much time to progress with others.
Although the notes are usually fine (unless the nerves get to me) I am badly lacking in technique which is very obvious when I hear other players live and here on this website. e.g. my chords and double stops are not nice and clean like they should be, my bends aren't very good yet - all that sort of thing. For instance I'm now spending a fair bit of time on Genie with the Light Brown Lamp which needs a lot of technique. It will be a long time before I can play it properly but it's those types of songs I never usually get time to work on.
Best wishes
Rosemary
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Post by peterk on Jul 22, 2014 13:34:40 GMT
I only scanned throught this thread but didnt see the term " Deliberate practice". Mindless practice or practicing those parts you can already play achieves little.
Many references to this on the web.
Sent from my GT-I9305T using proboards
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