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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 10:45:51 GMT
HI Guys
I was wondering which amps other than a Vox would give that Shadows/Hank sound,not just the early stuff but an all round sound.
I know they used Matchless and Vox but i only learned yesterday that they had used Mesa Boogie as well though i don't know which one or even if they had recorded anything with the Boogie.
Any info on this would be appreciated.
Thanks
Alan
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Post by frankmarvin on Nov 26, 2014 12:03:07 GMT
Hi Alan, I think Charlie is the one to ask, I always thought a Matchless was just a Vox that didn't break down lol cheers Frank:
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Nov 26, 2014 12:10:49 GMT
Session acetone is brilliant for Shads and its transistor, we had 2 last night along with an ac30 and Laney lc30 and it was agreed that the sessions were on par.
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 12:33:52 GMT
Thanks for the replies,i realised when i asked the question that most answers would probably say Fender of some description,but i am looking at something different.
Since i retired 2 years ago and a lot longer before then i always wanted a so called Boutique amp,Boogie - Matchless - Two Rock etc,but i was never in a position to purchase anything like those amps,now i am.
So the question is Boogie - Matchless or something else?
Not talking early stuff,just a good middle of the road Shads/Hank sound.
Alan
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Post by GeorgeII on Nov 26, 2014 13:37:50 GMT
Hi Alan , I think the Valvetech Hayseed does also a brillant Job in this directon.. Also a EF86 Channel is possible, turn down also power from 30 to 15w....
Cheers, Gerd
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 26, 2014 15:04:26 GMT
Hi Alan, I was told that Hank's Boogie was a MkIIC. I think he used it for several years for recording and live shows. Not my choice of amp but some people like them. Regards, Charlie
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 15:13:18 GMT
Hi Charlie
Any idea which recordings were made with the Boogie?
Alan
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 26, 2014 15:18:03 GMT
Hi Alan, Possibly most of the recordings in the late 70s, 80s, and on until he went to using Matchless. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Nov 26, 2014 15:19:03 GMT
If its boutique there is top hat amps they are an ac30 style. Matchless dc30 is very similiar
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Post by peterbower on Nov 26, 2014 16:28:43 GMT
Not sure how true this is but I have no reason to doubt it. I read some where that there were a couple of Fender Twins at the Abbey Road studio and Hank had tried them out and from all reports, liked them. According to rumour and it has to stay a rumour, Hank made a few recordings through the Fender twin but not sure what songs. This apparently did not please Dick Denny so he developed the AC-30 which was in effect, 2 AC-15's joined together, the rest is history. So would a modern day Fender Twin work, I don't know.
Peter
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 17:07:25 GMT
Hi Guys
Many thanks for the suggestions and the link to the Pinnacle which i am sure would do the job if i were after a gigging amp,but i am not.
I don't want to replicate the vintage Shadows sound,i just want a nice middle of the road Hank tone that i can record with at home.
I am looking at the new Mesa Boogie Mark 5/25,which has the MkII circuit that Hank used.I know i won't sound like Hank but it may give me that smooth sound i am looking for.
The albums released by the Shads using the Mesa Boogie were Moonlight Shadows - Reflections - Simply Shadows and Guardian Angel.
I agree that Fender Amps sound thin,i don't like them but i do like their guitars.
Its interesting all the different amps that have been mentioned,just shows that we all hear the same sound differently.
Alan
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Post by baz on Nov 26, 2014 17:18:08 GMT
Hi Al...don't want to pour cold water on your quest but be careful,............ it could end up like the cat chasing its tail.........a very expensive but ultimately frustrating experience. Baz Mesa boogie recto-verb 25 sounds sensational...but thats only my opinion of course............but to really hear a great amp you need to be able to use it at reasonably high volume levels
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Post by Rick on Nov 26, 2014 17:35:13 GMT
Years ago now,Hank did tour useing Messa Boogie amps,Somewhere through the eighties,I was at Chandler Guitars picking up my refretted Les and there were a couple of used by Hank Messa Boogies for sale. They were price tagged at around three or three and a half thousand pounds ( cos Hank used them ) I carried on with my trusty Marshall amp ( 3 Ecc83 and 2 El 34 output valves and a number of different echo units & never looked back. My Marshall is still cutting it after a couple of services and flash tests on the transformer.The EL34 system is very smooth and of course does not give the kind of heat shimmer to fry eggs on. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 17:52:04 GMT
Hi Guys
Well after all the comments regarding an alternative amp,I think It would be safest for me to go for the Vox AC15C1.
As Baz says it could be a very expensive but fruitless search for something that does not Exist,I still think Hanks sound is done by plugins or outboard gear,but that's just my Logical thinking and I am not looking to get into a load of verbals because others will not agree with me.
Alan
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 18:18:39 GMT
Hi Tonio
Yes the Meazzi would be excellent but they don't become available very often.
The circuits for them are all over the internet,I'm surprised no- one has made a copy,I guess there must be a good reason why not.
Alan
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Post by asimmd on Nov 26, 2014 18:40:22 GMT
Hi Paul
Thank you for the reply,I did try a Tech 21 Liverpool Pedal but I didn't like it.
Not tried a Joyo.
I swopped recordings with Philc some weeks ago,and he said that while my sound was close it lacked the core tone that only a Vox can give,hence the reason for looking for an amp.
Alan
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Post by kipper on Nov 26, 2014 22:20:29 GMT
Just spotted this for sale now.... www.the well known auction site.co.uk/itm/Pinnacle-Twin-30-Amplifier-/231397415506?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item35e05c5a52 That would do the job for you..... i had a Pinnacle Twin 30 Amplifier same as this and it was a smashing amp great for that sound and any others. peter
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Post by scanners on Nov 27, 2014 1:00:13 GMT
Hank had a KCP amp he used for a while built by Charlie and a couple of his mates till it caught fire in the studio Charlie told me, it must have been when he started using those JMI Vox copies after that Matthew
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Post by scanners on Nov 27, 2014 1:04:15 GMT
I think Hanks son Ben was using a Pinnacle amp I don't know if he still is? he's gone acoustic these days with his sister Matthew
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 27, 2014 2:01:08 GMT
I don't remember telling it quite like that. That makes it sound like the amp was to blame and I wouldn't think that for one second. Not impossible of course, but remember studios are full of electrical equipment, not just one amp. I have no idea if the cause was ever discovered. I had heard there was a fire in the studio and many things or everything, including the amp, were destroyed. I have forgotten when it happened. The JMI amps were first supplied for the 2009 tour, I was there when they unpacked them. Regards, Charlie
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Post by didier on Nov 27, 2014 8:47:03 GMT
Not sure how true this is but I have no reason to doubt it. I read some where that there were a couple of Fender Twins at the Abbey Road studio and Hank had tried them out and from all reports, liked them. According to rumour and it has to stay a rumour, Hank made a few recordings through the Fender twin but not sure what songs. This apparently did not please Dick Denny so he developed the AC-30 which was in effect, 2 AC-15's joined together, the rest is history. So would a modern day Fender Twin work, I don't know. I remember translating an interview in which Hank said he tried Fender amps, but preferred the Vox sound. The Shadows asked JMI for more powerful amps, not for recording, but for stage playing, as the AC15 were not loud enough anymore (larger venues, and girls screaming at Cliff), this is why Dick Denney designed the AC30. At this time, guitar amps were not miked, PA was used for singers only. As the speakers used couldn't handle more than 15W, two were needed to cope with the 30W amp. This is the only reason for the "twin" configuration. Early prototypes had a single speaker, but this was quicly dropped, obviously it couldn't last long ! They dropped using Vox amps after having encountered serious reliability problems with them during the eighties, and then started using Mesa Boogie and Matchless. Didier
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Post by asimmd on Nov 27, 2014 9:08:42 GMT
Hi Didier
Thank you for the explanation, it has been said that others who have tried both Mesa Boogie and Matchless thought they were not up to the job of creating Shadows sound.
I have listened to all 4 of the albums i mentioned as having been recorded using Mesa Boogie and i think the sound is excellent.
I understand that some post recording EQ is necessary and i have the tools to be able to do that,whether they are the right tools is another matter.
Alan
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Post by Tone on Nov 27, 2014 11:24:05 GMT
I had a Fender Twin with JBLs in the 70s.....completely the wrong amp for Hank's sound in my opinion......far too trebly....no meat in the Mid Range.....got rid of it for a MusicMan HD130EVM which was twice as dear in 1977 but a far better all round amp.....even though the preamp was solid state...valve driver and valve output stages.... For me Fender amps are all too thin in their tone and there isn't much you can do about it as it seems inherent in the circuit design......great for twang and country.....Beach Boys pop......and ok for Blues with a Gibson.......but against an AC 30 they lack that punch that puts you on top of the mix....and it's not just volume...... Orange Matamp.....or any of the current Matamps do the deal tone wise........very positive, full, dynamic lead tone........ Peter Green recorded Albatross through a Matamp and he is a big Hank fan..... Only my opinion all this of course and others will have other views.......cheers, Paul..... Hi Paul It just shows how one man's meat etc! I bought a 15 year old Fender Twin earlier this year and I love it. I don't find any of the negatives you mention and it will produce just about any sound you want, including all Hank's various sounds over the years. Perhaps the circuitry in mine is different from the one you had - the Twin's spec has varied over the years. I rarely use my AC15 Heritage these days! Cheers. Tony
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Post by Tone on Nov 27, 2014 12:38:57 GMT
Hi Paul
You could be right about the speakers making the difference - the ones in mine are Blue Label Fenders and are described in the manual as 'Special Design P/N 026488.' A little research has shown that they were actually made by Eminence.
I'm about the same age as you and couldn't agree with you more about the weight (77lb for mine) but I bought it knowing that it wouldn't move out of the house. Getting it home from the seller's house was quite enough for me!
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by peterbower on Nov 27, 2014 14:11:50 GMT
Some of the higher end Fender amps use Celestion speakers. I heard a Paul Revere 40-W valve amp, and it sounded pretty good for Shadows numbers.
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Post by glyderslead on Nov 27, 2014 23:27:15 GMT
Hello Alan, It seems that You are coming back to the idea that perhaps a Vox may be quite a good option after all.
Now, seeing the comments of Paul and Tony just above I would mention that I also recently sold on my Fender Twin reverb and my Musicman 212 150w HD as they were both becoming heavier by the week. I managed to replace them with an AC15 CC1 with blue speaker and essential mods and an AC15 C1. I took didiers advice that both used together were the equal of an AC30. The added bonus was that each of the "new" amps was half the weight of each of those sold. So, no I don't have that great Musicman sound any more but I can at least manage the weight of one amp more easily and leave one in the boot if I find the hall doesn't need two. Finally I have the added bonus that I will always have something if one amp was to fail. I'm very happy with this arrangement.
I hope this helps
Cheers
Mick
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Post by asimmd on Nov 27, 2014 23:52:18 GMT
Hi Mick
Thank you for the comments,i have yet to hear a Vox AC15C1 as my local shop sold out the day they arrived in store,same with the AC4,he only has the AC30C1 left now which as you say is very heavy.
I think it safe to say the jury's out on this,but i am as you say leaning towards the Vox.
Alan
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Post by sandytuck on Nov 28, 2014 4:09:26 GMT
Hi Allan, I've got a 1970 Fender Super Reverb with four JBLs and valve of course the sound is mind blowing on any song. It has plenty of EQ adjustment, and a real warmth as well. All our ears are a bit different as well, as the room or hall etc. you are playing in. Regards Les.
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Post by rogerbayliss on Nov 28, 2014 13:08:23 GMT
I recently got a Hayden MOFO 30 Head which I use with a Celestion Vintage 30 cab and the valves are 3 x ECC83 and 4 x EL84. Slightly different tone to a Vox due to tone circuits but with some effort I managed to get a great Shadows sound from the amp. It also has a boost circuit foot switchable and can cover a lot of sound scope. Used it at the Hankies Club a few times and all players sounding very good through it.
The designer of the MOFO was Dave Green the designer of the Mata amp by the way.
My amp for use at home is a Vox AC4 C1 TV Ltd and it is light and has the correct tones for the Shadows tunes.
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Post by murraysanders on Nov 29, 2014 11:15:32 GMT
Hello Alan I have a mesa Mk3 which I find is excellent Shadows , I also bought a Mk2c in 1982 when they came out , there was a problem with the early Mks , the 6L6 sockets were soldered on to the circuit board and when the amp was played for a long time in the hot weather the solder melted on the socket pins , this was fixed on the Mk3s as the sockets are mounted on the steel chassis , The Mesa's also have a record out which is handy , I also have a fender deluxe reverb with a celestial blue alnico speaker , these came out in 2011 and I find this amp is also great , only 22 watts but it is very load , i have include some pics , good luck in your quest , best regards Murray www.4shared.com/account/dir/qcEb5DNu/_online.html#dir=k7SUZ6Hu
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