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Post by musketeer58 on Jan 29, 2015 10:57:57 GMT
How`s it going troops, hope you`re all well. Just wanted to ask if somebody could give me some advice on which pickups to select for Atlantis. I know that there are a few changes for different verses and I`ve tried every which way but I can`t get it to sound even remotely like it should and I`m really getting frustrated with it  There`s also what sounds like some muting on the intro and the chorus which I`m assuming is done in a similar way to the chorus in Wonderful Land. I think I`m ok with that but any advice on which pickups to use would be greatly appreciated. Cheers all Adrian |
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Post by Viv on Jan 29, 2015 11:07:12 GMT
Hi Adrian, The muted intro is played using the middle pickup but you need to mute lightly so the echo is there but the strings still ring out a bit. This takes some practice.
The chorus and the four bars leading into the end it are also played like this using the middle pickup.
All the rest is played on the bridge pickup. Have a listen to my version. note the muting that starts at 2.11 towards the end. link
Also watch tis video. I used the ending but the main thing is you can actually see the pickup changes happening.
Cheers
Viv |
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Post by Tone on Jan 29, 2015 11:10:19 GMT
Hi Adrian
It's generally accepted that, on the record, Hank used the neck pickup for the muted parts (which is the intro - repeated in the middle and just before the end) and the bridge for the rest (which involves a very rapid change from neck to bridge for the outro).
I recall that there was a discussion on this forum some time ago regarding whether Hank always used these settings when playing Atlantis live. The conclusion was that he didn't but I can't remember the exact details.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Tone on Jan 29, 2015 11:20:56 GMT
Hi Viv
I posted my reply before I saw yours. It's interesting that you say the muted sections are played on the middle pickup because the experts (Charlie, the TVS guys, Geoff Strachan of Shadowsland) all say it's the neck. When I play Atlantis I always use the neck for these parts which sounds "right" whereas the middle doesn't.
I'm just wondering on what you're basing your assertion that it was the middle? My comments are in relation to the record, of course.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Viv on Jan 29, 2015 11:30:09 GMT
Hi Viv I posted my reply before I saw yours. It's interesting that you say the muted sections are played on the middle pickup because the experts (Charlie, the TVS guys, Geoff Strachan of Shadowsland) all say it's the neck. When I play Atlantis I always use the neck for these parts which sounds "right" whereas the middle doesn't. I'm just wondering on what you're basing your assertion that it was the middle? My comments are in relation to the record, of course. Cheers. Tony Hi Tony, Your not wrong. Hank played it on middle sometimes and neck sometimes as you can see in the video I now put up on my initial reply. Watch it in full screen view.
Have a look at the quick pickup change at 1.30. Then see at 1.40 that it's the middle pickup being used.
It must have been a mood thing
Cheers
Viv
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Post by rosemary on Jan 29, 2015 13:24:48 GMT
Hi Adrian
Atlantis was one of the first songs I learnt a few years ago and everyone advised me then to use the neck pickup for the muted parts each time they were repeated. Last time I played it live at our club I forgot to change it back to bridge after the first muted part at the beginning though which didn't sound too good as it definitely seems to need the brighter bridge sound there.
Best wishes
Rosemary
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Post by Cruachan on Jan 29, 2015 13:29:27 GMT
Is it possible he simply missed the correct positional change of the switch? Much easier to flip the switch from bridge to neck position and vice versa.
Just a thought. Dare I say it, and shoot me if I'm wrong, even Hank can be fallible on rare occasions.
Mike
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Post by istvan on Jan 29, 2015 13:31:51 GMT
Mike you are right!I think so too.
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Jan 29, 2015 13:33:49 GMT
To get the Atlantis sound there its the neck for the first 2 muted parts, rest including the end mute bit is on the bridge. Paul from tvs3 advises amp settings on the that sound videos. Ive tried top boost with bass and treble full on and the cut just off and can get reasonably close hope this helps but definately worth watching the that sound video
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Post by Viv on Jan 29, 2015 14:38:51 GMT
Is it possible he simply missed the correct positional change of the switch? Much easier to flip the switch from bridge to neck position and vice versa. Just a thought. Dare I say it, and shoot me if I'm wrong, even Hank can be fallible on rare occasions. Mike Hi Mike, Possibly different guitar different pickups, and none of us are right or wrong. My former Bullet Strat was better using the neck pickup on the muted sections.
I made my choice of middle pickup long before seeing that video. My present "real" Strat with Impersonator 54 pickups sounds better on middle although my EFTP chart said neck pickup.
Who knows?
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Post by Cruachan on Jan 29, 2015 15:21:23 GMT
Hi Viv, I'm sure you are correct. All I know is I puzzled over that end section for ages before I worked out a compromise: While playing the end muted section on the neck pickup, instead of attempting to play the F on the G string I miss that note and use the time to flip the switch from neck to bridge and on the next beat start the outro by striking the G on the D string. Seems to work, but I do have to be quick off the mark and accurate with finger placement on that D string. The downside, of course, is not playing that F on the G string. I doubt anyone notices  Does anyone have an alternative solution? Regards, Mike |
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Post by Tone on Jan 29, 2015 15:39:59 GMT
See what you've started, Adrian. Though quite innocently, I'm sure!
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Viv on Jan 29, 2015 17:47:53 GMT
Hi Viv, I'm sure you are correct. All I know is I puzzled over that end section for ages before I worked out a compromise: While playing the end muted section on the neck pickup, instead of attempting to play the F on the G string I miss that note and use the time to flip the switch from neck to bridge and on the next beat start the outro by striking the G on the D string. Seems to work, but I do have to be quick off the mark and accurate with finger placement on that D string. The downside, of course, is not playing that F on the G string. I doubt anyone notices Does anyone have an alternative solution? Regards, Mike Hi Mike, Have a look at the video on full screen and start at 2.30. You'll see hank slide down the neck after the muted section and almost as soon as he gets there he flips the pickup switch to bridge pickup. I watched it quite a few times to see exactly what he did. I now do the same and use the ending in that video. I think its the best ending Hank ever used.
Cheers
Viv
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Post by mikeab on Jan 29, 2015 22:14:00 GMT
Obvious really but worth saying maybe that Hank plays the ending differently live to give him time to change the pick up - on the record the muted section is clearly over dubbed.
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Post by Cruachan on Jan 30, 2015 10:51:47 GMT
Hi Viv,
Hey, you know, you are right! That's the perfect solution....much better than mine.
It will be great to round off Atlantis in this way rather than by continuing to use my somewhat unsatisfactory answer.
Many thanks! Can't wait to start practicing!
Regards,
Mike
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Post by musketeer58 on Jan 31, 2015 8:55:01 GMT
That`s what I love about this forum. One question and look at the discussion that follows. Brilliant!
Anyway, many thanks to all of you for your replies, I`ve learned quite a bit from this discussion and looking at the videos. I had a look at the videos on the TVS site and video 4 goes into picking style etc and I found that I was doing some things wrong there as well like the Apache gallop for instance, I didn`t have that quite right and there were a few other things I was doing wrong as well so, this post ended up being very educational.
Thank you all for your advice for Atlantis as well, I can`t believe that I had it completely the opposite. I was using the bridge pickup for the intro and the neck pickup for the rest. No wonder it sounded like s##t. I`m now trying to do the pickup changes without making mistakes and trying to get the muting right as well which is easier said than done. I`m either muting too much or not enough, I`ve just got to try and get that balance. I don`t have too much trouble with Wonderful Land but I`m struggling a bit with this one for some reason but you`re right Viv it`s just practice.
I would also appreciate some suggestions for amp settings as well. I`ve got an AC30 and I usually use the top boost high input with the bass and treble at around half to three quarters which doesn`t sound too bad. I tried your suggestion Steve but I felt that full treble was a bit over the top so I turned it down. Anyway, many thanks again troops, your input is very much appreciated.
Cheers all
Adrian
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Post by fenderplucker on Jan 31, 2015 9:58:55 GMT
Hi Adrian,
The purpose of having the bass and treble both full (or very nearly full)on is that it produces a deep valley in the response at about 800 Hz, giving the very scooped Atlantis sound. As you say, this also gives a very bright sound and you need to bring the top down with the top cut control (I needed it nearly fully on). It is all part of the curious way that the bass and treble controls on the Top Boost AC30 interact with each other.
Regards,
Paul.
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Post by Viv on Jan 31, 2015 10:20:19 GMT
Hi Adrian, Firstly, muting. I was told; If you want to sound like Hank try and play like Hank.
I used to mute with the side of my hand American style but the Strat volume control was always in the way. I made the switch to Hank style and the results were incredible. If you listen to Atlantis I linked to my first reply to your post I'm using palm muting.
Have a look at this video. Just Hank Marvin and pick it up at 47 minutes. Here Hank describes his palm muting style.
The whole video is worth watching. I learned a lot from it.
On my AC30 C2 I use low top boost with bass and treble in the middle and about one third tone cut. Also as you will find in the AC30 manual, the primary volume setting should be set low and the master volume set high to get a cleaner sound.
This recording I did a while ago was miked from in front of the AC30 into Audacity using the settings above. Cosy Zoom G3 with EFTP effects.
Cheers
Viv |
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Post by bor64 on Jan 31, 2015 14:15:11 GMT
Hank told me more then 30 years ago a nice eye-opener...
He told me that on some occasions there was a certain singer that had nothing better to do and he was sitting on the floor and after a nod of Hank, that singer did the switch for Hank. Not only on the guitar but also occasionally on a echo or something similar...
That only happen very sparsely, only when they had to record a song/tune with that singer later on or that singer was with the boys after a gig.....
Mind you Hank didn't mention Cliff's name at all during this anecdote....
Cheers Rob
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Post by musketeer58 on Feb 3, 2015 10:42:47 GMT
Many thanks for the replies again guys, it`s all been a huge help. Thanks for the videos Viv, I did listen to your version of Atlantis after your first reply and it sounded great. I watched the part of the video about palm muting and yes, it is a lot easier that way. I`ve been practicing and I`m starting to get it. Atlantis is now starting to sound a lot better than it did before although I`ve only been playing through the headphones at the moment because I can only use the amp when the house is empty which should be this weekend sometime so I`ll play with the amp settings then. The last time I played with the amp settings I didn`t do anything with the top cut control so maybe that's why I didn`t get it right also, I`ve got the effects pedal connected through the effects loop on the AC30 so, I might try straight into the input of the amp and see if it makes any difference. Thanks for your replies also Rob and Paul. When you mentioned the deep valley in the response at about 800 Hz  I had question marks above my head because I don`t understand what all that stuff means. Maybe I should do some reading on it. Also wanted to say hi to you Rosemary if you`re reading this, I meant to say hello after your reply earlier on in this thread. Hope things are going well way over the other side of the paddock. Anyway, many thanks again gang for your help and advice, it`s very much appreciated. Cheers Adrian |
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Post by rosemary on Feb 3, 2015 11:47:19 GMT
Hi Adrian
Thanks. Good to hear of your progress with Atlantis and nice to meet another Aussie here.
Best wishes
Rosemary
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Post by Viv on Feb 3, 2015 13:39:29 GMT
Hi Adrian, I'm glad I could help in a small way.
Cheers
Viv |
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Post by musketeer58 on Feb 6, 2015 1:01:46 GMT
It wasn`t just a small way Viv it was a big help. Many thanks.
Adrian
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Post by musketeer58 on Feb 14, 2015 11:54:15 GMT
How`s it going Troops. Just an update, I`ve been practicing Atlantis and I`m slowly getting there but one thing that`s bugging me is regarding the muted sections that we`ve talked about in this thread. When I`m playing the muted sections, it gets drowned out by the backing track. I had a look around the forum because I think it was mentioned before in another thread but I couldn`t find it. As far as I can remember, I think somebody mentioned that by using Audacity, it`s possible to reduce the volume for the muted parts of the backing track. I have been trying but it always goes pear shaped and I`m getting really frustrated with it. My computer has come very close to orbiting Saturn on a number of occasions. I had a look in the help section which wasn`t very helpful so I just wanted to ask if anyone could give me a few tips on how to do it or maybe there`s another way. As usual, any advice always has been and always will be very much appreciated. Cheers all Adrian |
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TonyL
Member
Vintage stuff
Posts: 190 
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Post by TonyL on Feb 14, 2015 13:55:45 GMT
Hi Adrian
I use Audacity quite a lot for modifying backing tracks (making them short/longer or slower/faster) as well as for recording.
So there are at least 2 ways achieving what you want.
1. With the Selection tool selected (it should be by default) click and drag across the section that you want to reduce and select the Effect>Amplify menu. Drag the slider at the top of the dialog but do it in small steps, you can preview the result.
2. Use the Envelope tool which should be next to the Selection tool. You click at the required position in the track to set place holders that can be moved in towards the centre of the track to reduce the volume. You probably need to set 4 positions and the use the 2 inner ones to change the volume. This has the advantage over method 1 in that you can get a smooth transition from the loud part to the quieter part and vice versa. In step 1 you get an abrupt change at each end.
Look in the help file index under Envelope Tool for more info.
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Post by musketeer58 on Feb 17, 2015 5:03:43 GMT
Many thanks for the reply Tony.
I`ll play around with it this weekend, it`s the only time I get to do stuff like this. I`ve also recently found out that with Audacity, you can slow the song down without losing the pitch which is a great learning tool. There`s obviously a lot more to Audacity than meets the eye.
Cheers Tony
Adrian
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Post by Viv on Feb 17, 2015 7:57:04 GMT
Many thanks for the reply Tony. I`ll play around with it this weekend, it`s the only time I get to do stuff like this. I`ve also recently found out that with Audacity, you can slow the song down without losing the pitch which is a great learning tool. There`s obviously a lot more to Audacity than meets the eye. Cheers Tony Adrian Hi Adrian, A site I've used a lot is Songsterr.
Have a look at these two links.
Text Tab It says at the top of this that the intro is left hand muted. That's new to me and could it be true?
Watch the video I put up earlier in this thread and start at 1.35. When the camera goes close up you'll see that Hank's right hand is moving too much, and does not appear to be muting. Watch again and try to concentrate on his left hand and it indeed looks as if he's touching the strings very lightly. (Other opinions?)
Sound Tab This is a play along tab.
Cheers
Viv
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Post by musketeer58 on Feb 18, 2015 2:22:33 GMT
Thanks for the info Viv.
I`ve never heard of the songsterr site, it`s great, I`ve now bookmarked it and I`ll be going there quite a lot from now on.
I had a look at that part of the video a few times and it does look like he`s finger muting however, if you have a look you`ll see that he`s still plucking the strings closer to the bridge where he normally would when he`s palm muting so, I`m not sure. I have tried it a few times but I find it really difficult but I suppose it`s the usual thing, practice, practice, practice and then more practice. I`ll try it again and see if I can get it right. I`m thinking that finger muting may be a better way, I would be interested to hear if anyone on this forum does finger muting and perhaps some tips on how it`s done would be great as well.
Thanks again for your reply Viv.
Cheers
Adrian
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Post by Cruachan on Feb 18, 2015 2:35:28 GMT
Hi Viv,
Now that IS interesting. I say that because in the early days, before I started to get to grips with palm muting, I was doing just that, and it does work!
You can mute each note by playing with a light but positive touch over the fret rather than behind. As you press the string down onto the fret the fleshy part of the finger ahead of the fret is damping the string as it vibrates. If you freeze the video early at 1:43 (just before Hank swivels to the right) you can see his index finger, under the mic, is positioned directly over a fret rather than behind.
I must try it again. Only reason I switched to palm muting for the Atlantis intro was because I thought my method was wrong. Originally I had assumed that 'my' way was in fact how all strings were muted and, indeed, how that unique sound was produced in Atlantis. The downside of finger muting is the need to be very accurate with finger placement - I can remember it taking me an age to pull it off consistently.
Could we have stumbled on a new technique, perhaps, or just simply resurrected an old technique that has gone out of favour?
Interesting.
Mike
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Post by musketeer58 on Feb 20, 2015 6:42:48 GMT
How`s it going Mike. I`ve been trying the finger muting over the last couple of evenings and it`s really difficult. You are certainly correct in saying that you need to be very accurate with finger placement. I`ll tell you what though, when you get it right it sounds sweet.  In my opinion, a lot better than palm muting and for that reason I`m going to persevere with it. I know it`ll take a while but it`s going to be worth it. Give it a try gang. Cheers all Adrian |
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I had question marks above my head because I don`t understand what all that stuff means. Maybe I should do some reading on it. 
In my opinion, a lot better than palm muting and for that reason I`m going to persevere with it. I know it`ll take a while but it`s going to be worth it.