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Post by leslie on Sept 7, 2019 21:40:25 GMT
Has anyone got any ideas how I can get that nice fat strat sound my guitars are a 56 no’s strat and a Alan Branson custom strat I have a H & C echo unit and I use a Boss Katana 100w head going through a 12” vox speaker but not to happy with that so I am open to ideas.
I must add this is for indoor use as I do not gig anymore.
Les
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 7:49:26 GMT
Yep that's an easy one. Put an overdrive pedal in the signal on a low setting to give "saturation" but not distortion. Use the guitars volume pedal to clean up 'more or less' The boss amp will have overdrive built in. Try it.... You already have that...
If you use a separate pedal try it before and after the H&C see what's best suited...
George
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Post by leslie on Sept 8, 2019 8:01:21 GMT
Thank you George I will give it a go.
regards
Les
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 8:05:11 GMT
Let me know. Just enough OD to add tone and colour to the sound = Fat.... Adjust treble and bass to get it where you want it....
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Post by scanners on Sept 8, 2019 11:42:09 GMT
Try boosting the mids the Katana has a mid boost in the effect section also but you have to hook up to the computer via USB There’s a guy on YouTube who does patches but he charges for them youtu.be/g_eR4wZzfrsMatthew |
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Post by leslie on Sept 8, 2019 13:17:12 GMT
Hi George you suggestion worked fine much improved now I just need to get a good volume height on the pickups is there a recommended height for Kinman pickups.
Thank again
Regards
Les
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 13:34:29 GMT
Les
I'm glad the OD worked. Such a simple fix.
There should be a manual or tutorial about kinman pickups. I am Seymour Duncan man myself. So not familiar with kinman. However you should be able to adjust the height until a sweet spot is found....... Make sure they all have the same volume following height adjustment. Make sure they are not so high as to hit the strings when fretting high up the fretboard.
George
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Post by leslie on Sept 8, 2019 17:28:01 GMT
George
Thanks for that it's been nice chatting and hope we keep in touch by the way I was a bass player for 35 years but always played guitar as well hence my need of advice on some things thanks again.
Regards
Les
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 18:44:26 GMT
Les my pleasure
Of course keep in touch.
I did some YouTube numbers with Viv Rose ex The Eldorados bass player and member of this site. Viv was number one bass player in Rhodesia.. Before moving to South Africa.
Check out HIDEAWAY posted on here today.
George.
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Post by bor64 on Sept 9, 2019 8:10:46 GMT
Les,
On the Kinman website you can find a easy to follow tutorial, how to setup Kinman pu's on a strat.
When you find the sweetspot, it's easy to alter your pu's "fatness" and loudness....
Hank doesn't use a distortion pedal to fatten his clean sound...
His distortion pedal(19 inch Marshal JMP-1 preamp) is mainly for doing that ,and is backstage always on a separate chain/channel (A/B switch).
George,
The last time I saw Viv here online was about two years ago....do you know how he's doing?
Cheers Rob
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 8:30:17 GMT
ROB
I reckon the pre amp Hank uses to fatten his sound works similar to an OD pedal. I have a similar preamp and used it instead of OD to fatten up Jailbreak Blues 66.
Sadly I can't track down Viv. I've not heard from him for 2 years either. We did 16 numbers on YouTube together so it's a shame. He went off radar after his dear wife Liz passed. I still have his number so I'll try again today.
Best wishes
George
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Post by Charlie Hall on Sept 9, 2019 8:40:53 GMT
Hank's live signal chain was typically split into two after the volume pedal and routed through one route or the other via an A/B footswitch. One route was via the Q20 and straight into the amp, the other was through an ADA MP-2 preamp to generate distortion then to a Marshall JMP-1 for echo/reverb effects then to the other channel of the amp. The latter route was only used for lead break sounds.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by bor64 on Sept 9, 2019 9:54:10 GMT
Your right Charlie! Stupid enough I forgot to mention the ADA completely....(I reckon a senior moment...a rather growing collection of that on the shelf). Before I wrote the reply I had that ADA-2 in my mind, but as I wrote....completely left out.  George, Like Charlie wrote, Hank doesn't fatten his tone with a pedal...let alone a OD pedal. He used the ADA-2 for just the OD parts in his repertoire. Hanks sound is for lots of shad fans to fat already  Hope you find Viv in good health, because if I remember correctly he wasn't at that time he placed his last replies... Cheers Rob |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 10:22:11 GMT
I know there's a sound thats loved by Shadows fans, however I've heard Hank say in an interview that the early sounds where in fact "distorted". For example Man of Mystery, original, has serious grit in the tone.
G.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Sept 9, 2019 10:44:05 GMT
Hi George,
The distortion on the early recordings is mostly from the amp. The echo unit also often added distortion to the echo part of the sound.
Of course, not many of us can or want to play loud enough to get amp distortion, so the next best thing is some kind of overdrive effect as you suggest.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 15:26:21 GMT
Charlie
Yes I heard it was the amp that was over loud. Apparently deafening in the studio!!
George
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Post by bor64 on Sept 9, 2019 18:56:54 GMT
Why Leslie's request to fatten his sound a smidgen is going of track towards first a OD pedal and now the unwanted distortion as by-product of Hanks old sound is beyond me.
He ask just to give his clean signal a little more body/thickness/fatness that can be done with lesser stuff in the signal chain.
Full nickel strings,thicker strings (if wanted), adjusting his pu's, turning his volume pot on 7 8 or 9 and that's just the guitar....
He got the old Hank distortion already from his HCSE, so maybe he got more use for some EQ or if he must some compression perhaps?
I spoke Hank so often I lost counts and the only time he mentioning a deafening amp was with Brian May.
The "distortion" on his amp and echo was partly of his hitting the strings relative hard!
They sat close to the amps and tried hard to avoid/prevent sound going from one amp going into the mike at the drums etc...
Cheers Rob
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Post by philc on Sept 9, 2019 19:42:49 GMT
After many years of studying how things were done in Studio 2, .....a lot of Hanks overdriven (fat) sound on the original recordings, besides hitting the strings hard, amp distortion and tape saturation etc was caused with mic overspill, i.e. Hanks sound when picked up on other mics not only had a few mls delay but also had a different sound via studio ambiance, all this added together makes a difference but more noticeable on some songs that others.  Phil |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 21:48:12 GMT
I've never quite understood the obsession with copying somebody else's sound.
I've heard members say they spend so long getting the sound right there's is no time to play. Brilliant. Find a sound you like that suits the music, commit to it, get on with playing and enjoy it.
My music which includes some Shadows favourites has been featured on local radio in Dorset. At the front end is a TC Electronics Mojo Mojo OD pedal. That's my sound and the audience have commented on it. They don't know any rules they just enjoy what they hear. I hope!!
At the end of the day its up to the individual to use a particular sound and there are no hard and fast rules. No bible, just guidelines...
By creative guys. Experiment... Smile...
Best
George.
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Post by shawbridge on Sept 9, 2019 22:23:04 GMT
I think I can safely say, when watching the Shadows many times live and have always enjoyed Hanks sound, I have never thought it sounded like his early recordings, in fact I have thought that at least 2 Tribute bands have sounded more authentic to the original sound as opposed to the Shadows themselves.
Has anyone else found this to be?
Tin hat firmly on 😆
Sorry for drifting a little of track.
Peter
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Post by philc on Sept 10, 2019 6:59:15 GMT
George, everyone to their own thing, for me, copying the studio sounds of "all" instruments is a challenge, a bit of fun, it also teaches what techniques were used in those early days, apart from that there's no other reason, it's not for everyone as it takes a considerable amount of time and effort and can also be very frustrating!
Peter, the reason Hank never had a close sound to the recordings is because a lot went on in the studio and control room that is not easily replicated on stage, also practically every tune had it's own mix, which complicates things even further!
Phil
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2019 7:51:01 GMT
Phil
I couldn't agree more. Each to their own. I can see the fascination in going for sounds as a project in itself and its your thing. So power to you. You're good at it! I just think there's more than one path. The guy that started this thread wanted to fatten his sound and that was achieved. I agree there's multiple ways to do it.... Some a good enough fix, and some more authentic.
All the best
George
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Post by shawbridge on Sept 10, 2019 8:43:35 GMT
Agree, re EQ mix live on stage, I think I pointed that fact out earlier on in the debate on the H&C and TVS3.
I know the reasons, Hank has to have reliability on stage with the equipment but that will no doubt equate to authentic sound compromise, as older more authentic gear is to be fair, not as reliable as modern equipment 🤭.
I think my point was that I was relating my experience with live Shadows Bands and comparing the Hank sound, the Shadows live performances were always professional, talented musicianship and all that and great sound but not that dated sound of the early 60s.
In my opinion, I thought Phil Kelly’s early Shads sound was more authentic than Hanks on stage, purely because of the authentic gear he used but at the same time, this equipment carries risk with reliability and if it goes down it’s hardly likely you have two.
I think really, we are on the same wave length with regard to the hows and why re Hank live stage sound but Hank’s early sound on stage, with respect, was not there.
A good example was the Savage at the, I think the O2 arena.
👍
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Post by andyj47 on Sept 10, 2019 18:25:51 GMT
hi peter straw bridge ,I agree with you about hanks live sound ive seen them at various stages of their career, and they've never reproduced their early recorded sound to me.a good example is the recent live at the bbc cd,somebody got me this as a present,however found it very disappointing,for example wonderful land and apache could have been any bunch of musos playing, or even at a shads club.hanks never pulled all the stops out to sound like its 1961 again,i guess hes not that bothered ,after all he had the great sound at the time.
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Post by scanners on Sept 11, 2019 3:35:53 GMT
Interesting what you say about trying to copy someone else’s sound I read Mark Knopfler was trying to get Hanks sound with his Fender blackface amplifier but it was too thin he was trying for that mid range Nasel Vox sound by wedging the pick up selector between the bridge and middle pick up, and got his own signature sound
Matthew
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Post by bor64 on Sept 11, 2019 5:12:54 GMT
Hank told me, he's always trying to get the best sound possible and available with the equipment at that time.
His Meazzi's were real nightmares to keep in service...when Hank changed from Meazzi to Binson, Dick Denny threw all 3 machines in a pit in the garden....later a garage was built on it!!!
So that's why he always use the modern stuff to get his sound.
For him it's always a two-edged sword, on the one side the echo patterns needed for the tunes and a reliable clean sound and the old sound the anorak fans wanted....
The change in 2009 to Fender '54 pu's and the JMI amps were actually a gesture to the fans.
The equipment before that were Kinman and the KCP Marvin amp and before that a Matchless...
Nowadays Hanks changed back to Kinman again.
This is all for the fans needs, not for Hank....Hank moved on in his personal music adventure hence the Gipsy music...
Cheers Rob
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Post by garyallen on Sept 11, 2019 7:01:37 GMT
In a recent interview I'm sure Hank mentioned he used a tube screamer to fatten up his sound on his last album.
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Post by andyj47 on Sept 11, 2019 8:05:29 GMT
wheres this garage !!!!! quick get a spade and dig em up !!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 8:41:49 GMT
There you are HBM uses a tube screamer. I've got one too!! I just prefer the TC Mojo Mojo.
Here's what I think. Analogue saturation is pleasing to the ear at low levels. Audient interfaces have an optimised guitar input that adds some harmonic distortion and sounds good as a result. I think all solid body electric guitars sound like a plank of wood with strings on unless something is added to create a sound. If you just put echo on you've got "no tone with echo" . Add something to fatten up at the beginning (or after echo in some cases) and the result is a pleasing sound.
Example I was trying to get a descent sound with a quadraverb a while back and it wasn't happening. I accidently kicked in a Fuzz box set low and BINGO there was the Shadows sound. It's over-driven.. Gobsmacked!! I'm sure there are other ways but I'm happy with the OD method cheap simple and effective...
Feel free to debate guys I like this topic it's intetested me for years
George
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Post by philc on Sept 11, 2019 9:18:48 GMT
As well as amp volume, running a guitar track through an Altec 436c or RS124 as was the case in Studio 2, adds tube saturation, it's an easy case of raising the input signal which highers the compression ratio to get this, saturation/distortion happens when the gain reduction is more than -20db.
This seems to have been common practice with some of the early recordings.
Phil
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