Post by Kevin on Oct 28, 2008 13:09:52 GMT
From: MSN NicknameRayL7345 (Original Message) Sent: 17/11/2007 08:25
More topics needed?
As a guitar builder as well as a guitar player, here's a few topics that are of interest to me. Any responses?
1. The size of the upper bout on a guitar and the position of the strap button have a strong effect on playing styles. That long upper bout, with the strap button placed at the tip, means that guitars like the Strat (and it's clones) and the Burns Marvin (and it's clones, like the Marquee) have a strap that starts opposite the 12th fret. For a right-handed player, this brings the end of the fingerboard nearer to the left hand and the left elbow tucks comfortably against the body.
Other guitars have a strap that starts opposite the 15th, 16th, or even 17th fret (my Baldwin 712T) and the left arm has to stretch out to play near the nut - not so comfortable over long periods. So the 'hidden comfort' factor may be a strong reason why the Strat has become the world's best-loved guitar. Leo certainly knew a thing or two!
2. By way of contrast, here's another of my hobby-horses - the position of the middle pickup on Strats (and most other three-pickup guitars). At 4in (10cm) it's just where my pick wants to strike when I rest the heel of my hand on the bridge. When picking the strings, my plectrum bounces on the body of the middle pickup, and in particular on the tips of the magnets. Yes, I could move my hand but then I wouldn't be able to rest the heel or dampen the strings when needed.
It's just one of those things - but it means most of my guitar collection has two pickups rather than three.
3. Volume controls (not just tone controls) dull the sound of a guitar. If you don't believe me, have a listen to my Shergold and Hayman guitars which have Bypass switches. These bypass ALL the pots so that the pure tone of the pickups goes straight to the amplifier input. It's like drawing back a veil -the pickups have a magic extra something in the treble. There is frequent discussion on forums about values for volume pots, 250K?, 500K?, but for the greatest, cleanest output, 'no pots' is best.
Ray Liffen
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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamebear637 Sent: 17/11/2007 17:38
Hi Ray
Interesting topics you have pointed out. Now how many of us when playing our Strats, dampened our strings only to the hit volume knob with the little finger driving the guitar into full volume? Like Phil Emmanuel once told me, why don't they locate it between the tone knobs. Phil himself doesn't have this problem as he uses the volume with his little finger, instead of the "whammy" bar, bending his strings, it's uncanny to watch him
I being unable to do this, set my volume at max and use my volume pedal to adjust amount of sound out of the amp
Any thoughts on this?
John
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Recommend Delete Message 3 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamehoadlies Sent: 18/11/2007 00:29
HI RAY GOOD TOPIC'S,Ilike ''atlantis&other's ''& have trouble getting my,heel of my hand just right[ Iam not a real good player] ,but what about a string dampener,Ithink i saw one years ago on a ''FENDER JAGUAR'' I know it is not the done thing traditionally but what the hell ,some of us less experienced player's need all the help we can get you could ''pick where you want '.have you seen such a item &if so where,??. DAVE GILMORE also fiddles with his vol-pot a lot[ps have you seen his new work ''remember that night,live at the royal albert''Ihave just gotten the DVD &It is fantastic[my wife surprised me with it].AS far no load tone what about ''fenders no load pot''AS for strap position Ican't really coment as i don't play so well standing,CHEER"S FOR NOW ..aussie barry..
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Recommend Delete Message 4 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 18/11/2007 05:29
Hi Ray,
The Gibson SG must be the worst guitar for what you are talking about in #1.
Re. your point #2, I don't have a problem with the middle pickup on a Strat. I was thinking about what you said while I was gigging tonight, and noticed that my picking position was often just the bridge side of the middle pickup, but I have small hands.
You can get close to the Strat position 4 (on a 5 way) with 2 pickups by using an idea from the Fender JD Tele circuit. In one of the switch positions, the pickups are reconfigured out of phase, a resistor of 6.8K (I think that's the correct value) is put in series with each pickup, and also a capacitor of 0.01Mfd is in series with the neck pickup. The exact effect depends on the position of the 2 pickups relative to the overall scale from nut to bridge, as well as how well balanced the pickups are with each other.
Re your point #3, the volume pot resistance has an effect on the strength of the resonant peak of the pickup, so what you are saying is correct.
John,
The effect Hank uses with his volume pedal alters the sound from completely off to full on in a short space of time. It must be very difficult to do exactly the same thing with a Strat volume control. Jeff Beck uses it all the time. I have never been able to do it well so I use a volume pedal, the only time I need to use my guitar volume control is for setting the drive level (equivalent to threshold) when using a compressor.
Barry,
String dampers have no control over the damping effect, they are regarded as useless by those who damp by hand.
You can't use a no load pot for volume, you can only use them for tone controls.
Regards,
Charlie
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Recommend Delete Message 5 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameRayL7345 Sent: 18/11/2007 07:44
Charlie
Like you, I prefer to use a volume pedal rather than the volume control on the guitar. Since my Fender 2x12" combo (FM212R) has insert jacks, I feed Preamp Out from the amp into the Proel Volume pedal, Proel into the G2, and G2 back into Power Amp In. That way my AKG guitar wireless receiver can plug direct into the amplifier input. By putting the Proel before the G2, I avoid cutting off repeats when using some of those special Shadows echoes that you kindly devised.
Incidentally the Proel volume pedal has a couple of nice features - the first is that it has an 'minimum volume' pot, which avoids turning the guitar right off in 'pedal up' position - can be used for rhythm/solo, and for giving more sensitivity to the pedal range. The second is that it is dual channel ie it has two 'In's and two 'Out's so it can control two instruments at once - ideal for my Sherman guitars! (the ones that fit together, see earlier thread).
You mentioned pickup phasing. What I'd like to find is a Fender-style switch that gives me 3-pole, 4-way selection. At present I'm using rotary switches on several of my guitars with humbuckers to give me the following selections for each humbucker:
1, Coils in series and in phase
2. Coils in series and out of phase
3. Single coil (with other coil available for stereo operation)
4. Coils in parallel and in phase
Rotary switches are all very well but it's not easy to rotate to the correct position in a hurry. It would be nice to find a Fender-style lever switch.
Ray
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Recommend Delete Message 6 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 18/11/2007 15:28
Hi Ray,
It's good idea to use a volume pedal away from the guitar cable as it helps to stop further deterioration of the tone, and yes, the stereo operation is good for more complicated uses. I can see how the minimum volume feature would be useful, although I wouldn't need it myself.
I don't think a Fender Style 3 pole 4 way switch is made. You are probably aware of the Superswitch (by Yamaha?) mentioned elsewhere that has 5 way, 4 pole contacts. Maybe you could devise a further useful setting for the fifth position.
Regards,
Charlie
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Recommend Delete Message 7 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamehoadlies Sent: 19/11/2007 00:10
HI RAY ,fender make a5 way -4pole [named super switch]you can use it in conjuction with std 5 way,''ie'' fit it along side ,with it set in pos 5 you have std strat ,on std, switch operation,&4 other series combinations,on super switch,Iam currently building-up a squire using this set up,Iwill post pic's when Ican.THANK'S charlie for coment;s on damping.[I'LL practice more]...ray the switch was $33.00aust.AT this the well known auction site store RAMMSTEIN8888guitarparts4u.CHEER'STO ALL barry..
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Recommend Delete Message 8 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 19/11/2007 01:34
Hi Ray,
I made an error with the resistor value for the JD Tele circuit. It should be 6.2K, and not 6.8K. I doubt that it would make much difference though.
Regards,
Charlie
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Recommend Delete Message 9 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameRayL7345 Sent: 19/11/2007 05:54
Charlie and Barry
Thanks for your mention of the Superswitch. I'd overlooked this because in the places I'd looked, there was no mention of the number of poles. For non-Strat use, do you know of an escutchion for a 5-way? Trying to make a really neat, clean slot is not easy and an escutchion will hide any dodgy handywork.
Ray
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Recommend Delete Message 10 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 19/11/2007 06:55
Hi Ray,
I don't know of an escutchion being available. As the switch will be designed for standard scratchplate thickness you might have to make your own out of scratchplate material and keep an area of the body open so the switch is correctly positioned and operate correctly. I once cut an extra slot in a Strat scratchplate for someone and drilled several small holes in a straight line, then filed the slot from that.
I would think you are aware of Stewmac but in case you are not, the site address is:
www.stewmac.com/
They have 2 types of similar switches, and if anyone would have a special plate I would expect them to, but I was not able to find anything.
Regards,
Charlie
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Recommend Delete Message 11 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamehoadlies Sent: 19/11/2007 10:10
HI RAY I marked a line ,just long enought''ie'' take it from origonal slot,&drill starting in centre of slot,ose smaller size drill-bit than slot [1/16''] etc &make a slot by moving each way 1/4'',to make a slot long enough to fit a hack-saw blade into&care fully cut each way ,keeping to your line[dont go too far]&then get a auto points file&finish width of slot.,offer switch to slot in centre position to mark holes for holding screw's,mine turned out good.cheer's&good luck with it...barry..
More topics needed?
As a guitar builder as well as a guitar player, here's a few topics that are of interest to me. Any responses?
1. The size of the upper bout on a guitar and the position of the strap button have a strong effect on playing styles. That long upper bout, with the strap button placed at the tip, means that guitars like the Strat (and it's clones) and the Burns Marvin (and it's clones, like the Marquee) have a strap that starts opposite the 12th fret. For a right-handed player, this brings the end of the fingerboard nearer to the left hand and the left elbow tucks comfortably against the body.
Other guitars have a strap that starts opposite the 15th, 16th, or even 17th fret (my Baldwin 712T) and the left arm has to stretch out to play near the nut - not so comfortable over long periods. So the 'hidden comfort' factor may be a strong reason why the Strat has become the world's best-loved guitar. Leo certainly knew a thing or two!
2. By way of contrast, here's another of my hobby-horses - the position of the middle pickup on Strats (and most other three-pickup guitars). At 4in (10cm) it's just where my pick wants to strike when I rest the heel of my hand on the bridge. When picking the strings, my plectrum bounces on the body of the middle pickup, and in particular on the tips of the magnets. Yes, I could move my hand but then I wouldn't be able to rest the heel or dampen the strings when needed.
It's just one of those things - but it means most of my guitar collection has two pickups rather than three.
3. Volume controls (not just tone controls) dull the sound of a guitar. If you don't believe me, have a listen to my Shergold and Hayman guitars which have Bypass switches. These bypass ALL the pots so that the pure tone of the pickups goes straight to the amplifier input. It's like drawing back a veil -the pickups have a magic extra something in the treble. There is frequent discussion on forums about values for volume pots, 250K?, 500K?, but for the greatest, cleanest output, 'no pots' is best.
Ray Liffen
First Previous 2-11 of 11 Next Last Delete Replies
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 2 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamebear637 Sent: 17/11/2007 17:38
Hi Ray
Interesting topics you have pointed out. Now how many of us when playing our Strats, dampened our strings only to the hit volume knob with the little finger driving the guitar into full volume? Like Phil Emmanuel once told me, why don't they locate it between the tone knobs. Phil himself doesn't have this problem as he uses the volume with his little finger, instead of the "whammy" bar, bending his strings, it's uncanny to watch him
I being unable to do this, set my volume at max and use my volume pedal to adjust amount of sound out of the amp
Any thoughts on this?
John
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 3 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamehoadlies Sent: 18/11/2007 00:29
HI RAY GOOD TOPIC'S,Ilike ''atlantis&other's ''& have trouble getting my,heel of my hand just right[ Iam not a real good player] ,but what about a string dampener,Ithink i saw one years ago on a ''FENDER JAGUAR'' I know it is not the done thing traditionally but what the hell ,some of us less experienced player's need all the help we can get you could ''pick where you want '.have you seen such a item &if so where,??. DAVE GILMORE also fiddles with his vol-pot a lot[ps have you seen his new work ''remember that night,live at the royal albert''Ihave just gotten the DVD &It is fantastic[my wife surprised me with it].AS far no load tone what about ''fenders no load pot''AS for strap position Ican't really coment as i don't play so well standing,CHEER"S FOR NOW ..aussie barry..
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 4 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 18/11/2007 05:29
Hi Ray,
The Gibson SG must be the worst guitar for what you are talking about in #1.
Re. your point #2, I don't have a problem with the middle pickup on a Strat. I was thinking about what you said while I was gigging tonight, and noticed that my picking position was often just the bridge side of the middle pickup, but I have small hands.
You can get close to the Strat position 4 (on a 5 way) with 2 pickups by using an idea from the Fender JD Tele circuit. In one of the switch positions, the pickups are reconfigured out of phase, a resistor of 6.8K (I think that's the correct value) is put in series with each pickup, and also a capacitor of 0.01Mfd is in series with the neck pickup. The exact effect depends on the position of the 2 pickups relative to the overall scale from nut to bridge, as well as how well balanced the pickups are with each other.
Re your point #3, the volume pot resistance has an effect on the strength of the resonant peak of the pickup, so what you are saying is correct.
John,
The effect Hank uses with his volume pedal alters the sound from completely off to full on in a short space of time. It must be very difficult to do exactly the same thing with a Strat volume control. Jeff Beck uses it all the time. I have never been able to do it well so I use a volume pedal, the only time I need to use my guitar volume control is for setting the drive level (equivalent to threshold) when using a compressor.
Barry,
String dampers have no control over the damping effect, they are regarded as useless by those who damp by hand.
You can't use a no load pot for volume, you can only use them for tone controls.
Regards,
Charlie
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 5 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameRayL7345 Sent: 18/11/2007 07:44
Charlie
Like you, I prefer to use a volume pedal rather than the volume control on the guitar. Since my Fender 2x12" combo (FM212R) has insert jacks, I feed Preamp Out from the amp into the Proel Volume pedal, Proel into the G2, and G2 back into Power Amp In. That way my AKG guitar wireless receiver can plug direct into the amplifier input. By putting the Proel before the G2, I avoid cutting off repeats when using some of those special Shadows echoes that you kindly devised.
Incidentally the Proel volume pedal has a couple of nice features - the first is that it has an 'minimum volume' pot, which avoids turning the guitar right off in 'pedal up' position - can be used for rhythm/solo, and for giving more sensitivity to the pedal range. The second is that it is dual channel ie it has two 'In's and two 'Out's so it can control two instruments at once - ideal for my Sherman guitars! (the ones that fit together, see earlier thread).
You mentioned pickup phasing. What I'd like to find is a Fender-style switch that gives me 3-pole, 4-way selection. At present I'm using rotary switches on several of my guitars with humbuckers to give me the following selections for each humbucker:
1, Coils in series and in phase
2. Coils in series and out of phase
3. Single coil (with other coil available for stereo operation)
4. Coils in parallel and in phase
Rotary switches are all very well but it's not easy to rotate to the correct position in a hurry. It would be nice to find a Fender-style lever switch.
Ray
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 6 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 18/11/2007 15:28
Hi Ray,
It's good idea to use a volume pedal away from the guitar cable as it helps to stop further deterioration of the tone, and yes, the stereo operation is good for more complicated uses. I can see how the minimum volume feature would be useful, although I wouldn't need it myself.
I don't think a Fender Style 3 pole 4 way switch is made. You are probably aware of the Superswitch (by Yamaha?) mentioned elsewhere that has 5 way, 4 pole contacts. Maybe you could devise a further useful setting for the fifth position.
Regards,
Charlie
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 7 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamehoadlies Sent: 19/11/2007 00:10
HI RAY ,fender make a5 way -4pole [named super switch]you can use it in conjuction with std 5 way,''ie'' fit it along side ,with it set in pos 5 you have std strat ,on std, switch operation,&4 other series combinations,on super switch,Iam currently building-up a squire using this set up,Iwill post pic's when Ican.THANK'S charlie for coment;s on damping.[I'LL practice more]...ray the switch was $33.00aust.AT this the well known auction site store RAMMSTEIN8888guitarparts4u.CHEER'STO ALL barry..
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 8 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 19/11/2007 01:34
Hi Ray,
I made an error with the resistor value for the JD Tele circuit. It should be 6.2K, and not 6.8K. I doubt that it would make much difference though.
Regards,
Charlie
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 9 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameRayL7345 Sent: 19/11/2007 05:54
Charlie and Barry
Thanks for your mention of the Superswitch. I'd overlooked this because in the places I'd looked, there was no mention of the number of poles. For non-Strat use, do you know of an escutchion for a 5-way? Trying to make a really neat, clean slot is not easy and an escutchion will hide any dodgy handywork.
Ray
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 10 of 11 in Discussion
From: Charlie Hall Sent: 19/11/2007 06:55
Hi Ray,
I don't know of an escutchion being available. As the switch will be designed for standard scratchplate thickness you might have to make your own out of scratchplate material and keep an area of the body open so the switch is correctly positioned and operate correctly. I once cut an extra slot in a Strat scratchplate for someone and drilled several small holes in a straight line, then filed the slot from that.
I would think you are aware of Stewmac but in case you are not, the site address is:
www.stewmac.com/
They have 2 types of similar switches, and if anyone would have a special plate I would expect them to, but I was not able to find anything.
Regards,
Charlie
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 11 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamehoadlies Sent: 19/11/2007 10:10
HI RAY I marked a line ,just long enought''ie'' take it from origonal slot,&drill starting in centre of slot,ose smaller size drill-bit than slot [1/16''] etc &make a slot by moving each way 1/4'',to make a slot long enough to fit a hack-saw blade into&care fully cut each way ,keeping to your line[dont go too far]&then get a auto points file&finish width of slot.,offer switch to slot in centre position to mark holes for holding screw's,mine turned out good.cheer's&good luck with it...barry..