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Post by patrice on Dec 20, 2022 19:22:39 GMT
Paul A very big thank you for divulging all the latest informations you found about "F" models. We return to the origins of factory possibilities… Now and about the particular use of this Hank’s SEP « F » in Zambesi . For my part, I can only believe you, since you are the "reference" in the matter both of the measurements but also of the reproduction of these characteristics with your TVS3. Therefore, we cannot be completely sure of anything, as for the use, supposedly obligatory and unique, of the Echomatic 2/ vox ECHO past February 1961 with the joint recording of Frightned Ciy and Blue Star… Now? If Hank uses (mostly!) his Echomatic 2 from the recording of Kon Tiki at the end of January 1961, the other good question is to know if he was able to use, in succession, two (mono speed) Echomatic 2 and not only one only ? Because : Considering the number of concerts and recordings, as much Shadows alone as with Cliff, performed with this SEP during the years 1961, 62, 63 and (in theory) 1964, one can reasonably think, in terms of wear and reliability, that the use of a single machine is insufficient before it gives up the ghost or becomes unusable? However, and relying on the "reference" of your measurements, we can also think that February 18, 1964, the date of the recording session at studio 2 of Zambesi and The High And The Mighty, (does it the same echo pattern used for this one in the same session ?) the Hank’s SEP/ Echomatic 2 has some troubles and needs to be revised, or that Hank and the Shadows decide to re-use (exceptionally but also for other contemporary titles, the Apache "F" model preserved and remained at stays in Abbey Road, to voluntarily "change" echo pattern ? So many questions that Hank could perhaps answer, even if remembering such details, in the dense musical activity of this time, he can't logically remember… Finally if I base myself on the magnetic transfer curve brought by a Binson magnetic drum compared to that of a tape on the Echomatic Meazzi in my possession, and with, for both, the same « SEP schematics (linear recording/ playback without pre-accentuation of the treble to recording) it is already the same thing except that it is not identical ! By adding that on the Meazzi the choice of the type of the tape is important since according to that used, the HF tension of polarization is most often insufficient (even set "thoroughly") to be able to reach the maximum performance at 1kHz as on a tape recorder, and which says lack of pre -magnetization voltage called stronger harmonic distortion and promoting treble, or rather what remains after 3000Hz…(!) Not to mention this reverberation range and this unique echo halo, generated by a magnetic drum compared to the tape. Even if, in the end (except to make some comparative measurements between my clone and the Echomatic 2 of Ben, and may be ?!) I do not know the difference in the tonal rendering that exists between a magnetic drum using a piece of tape against glued on the periphery, as on the SEP, and a Binson drum, become magnetic by using a wire (iron-based) wrapped in joint turns around its periphery . Best regards and Merry Christmas to all.
Patrice
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Post by patrice on Dec 15, 2022 7:57:29 GMT
With a little delay (not due to SEP !) First : Thank you all for your answers and your interest in my text.. In particular for the attention of Paul Rossiter or Charlie Hall with whom I am delighted to be able to exchange. About the microphone input impedance on the SEPs it is (without a doubt !) 500 kOhms and not 1MOhms as I wrote (I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it, even if, in practice, it does not change much). However, for the readers and referring to the schematics, it is the resistance wired between hot and ground of the SEP input Geloso socket, which sets this impedance. Even if the "grid current through the resistance of 4,7 MOhms = 10 times more strong than the one of 500K, comes to be connected electrically in // on that of 470k making it evolve towards a slightly lower value… However, this resistance value of 500 kOhms (470kOhms today in standardized value) is sufficient to correctly "load" the single coil pickups of a Stratocaster in order to leave them with all their dynamics. Conversely, I would just like to warn users of an Echorec Binson lamp since in this case, it is a 47 kOhm resistor (10 times less than that of SEPs) which is (from factory) wired between point hot and ground on each of the three input sockets of this Binson. However, with this resistance value 10 times lower, it becomes normal or not surprising, due to this insufficient electrical charge, that the natural brilliance delivered by the pickups of the Stratocaster decreases. And so that the (direct) sound becomes duller… Simple remedy to recover this natural brilliance of the SEP type: remove (cut or unsolder) this 47 kOhm resistor. Getting to Hank: What makes me say that his (first) "F" model was reserved for recordings at Abbey Road comes from the fact that on all known Youtube videos from the year 1960 (my friend André Duchossoir RIP had made a compilation of it) it is still his "J" model that Hank uses live... I think so (but if anyone can prove otherwise we'll have advanced) that since this Signature "J" model was easily replaceable (just in case = shock in the transport) by JMI, this is also the reason why it is this SEP "J" model that is used live. A way also to preserve the (first) "F" model. That said! I don't deny that this same "J" model could have been used at Abbey Road Studio 2 to record Cliff's tracks. The primary purpose of this echo chamber being to give a reverb effect of the same type as the Studio recording that can be reproduced on stage with Cliff. And not or not yet… (?) an echo effect to the particular song from the moment when the Shadows alone will replace Cliff in the N°1 place of the charts with Apache. And as I believe in your measurements reproduced on your site (Paul) it is and becomes obvious that for only the instrumental titles Shadows, with the model "F" (rendered after Jet Harris RIP redoubtable) "on" applies , to obtain four slightly different echo programs to allow Hank to "choose" (in the Studio...) "the" program that will best suit the tempo and the music of the recorded title. And all this in no way prevents, since it is the "J" model which is reserved for live performances (stage or BBC) that we find this same SEP "J" model used by Hank on television in FBI the same day than their performance with Cliff...And even though for the record it was the "F" model that was used. If Hank ( trolling me in the interview ! ) could answer these questions, specifying these specific points (and now that there is a prescription!) would be even better ! (By the way say hello to my Guitar hero for me, Paul, if you meet him? It's without hard feelings !!!) Now about Ben Van Zon's SEP/Echomatic 2. I had myself, some difficulties to understand how these two simultaneous operations of adjusting the speed and level of the mix of the first three heads versus the fourth, was done using the Effects knob alone. Jean Paul Caro (who has built several SEP clones) after seeing Ben's Echomatic 2 just one mouth ago, in Holland, told me the following things about how it works: In practice, it is by pulling the axis of the Pot Effect towards you, and then turning its knob, that you mechanically adjust (by interposed cam) the speed of rotation of the drum. So by varying the positioning of the rubber roller on the conical part. Once the "chosen" speed obtained, you have to press again on the axis of the Effect pot (the rubber drive roller remaining in place) and it is then that we adjust, by turning the "Effects" button again, the desired level of mixing. So and in practice, you MUST first adjust the speed (if you obviously want to change it !) and then adjust the level of the mix of the first three reading heads in relation to the level of the fourth (fixed) For my part, I think that if there was a separate mechanical adjustment to adjust ONLY the rotation speed of the drum and the Effects pot to adjust ONLY the level of the mix, no doubt that the interaction between the two would be not only easier to do and hear, but also more obvious to find... Especially since on this SEP / Echomatic 2 model from Ben, we can only shorten the times of the four rebounds since it is on the position of its slowest speed that we obtain the echo song of the Echomatic 2 by Hank… Finally and if I base myself on my clone (or even on the four that I have built) from a all tubes Binson PE 603 to make it a SEP Echomatic 2 there is no doubt that from one lap to another of the drum, the relative playback level of each of the heads changes but also the "instantaneous" wow, leading to this "flange/chorus" effect which is difficult to reproduce since, on SEP, it varies constantly and from one completely random... Regards Patrice
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Post by patrice on Jun 13, 2019 11:39:01 GMT
Rob The French guitar collector who bought this STRAT 57 ex Hollies, is not ALF (Alain la France) that I know very well too ! (Joke : ALF told me that he had not the money enough to buy it !) And I promised to the actual owner (who wishes to remain anonymous) not to disclose his name… About this 57 2 tone Sunburst Strat we can see Hank played with it (in 83 and certainly in Honey Hill studios) in this youtube video and between 35 sec and one minute www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNHYx24AR1Yand after 1 minute, Hank played his (my) 58 Fiesta Red… About now the Hank’s Black Strat with a large headstock and fitted with a maple neck. I’m totally agreed with you Rob. This kind of model is (very !) RARE (and certainly rarest that a maple board !) because of its « massive » (one peace like in the 50’s) maple neck screwed on the body by (yet) four screws… During the 20 years of Guitar Express Vintage Guitars in Paris, I sold only ONE Strat 1970 with a « like this » one piece maple neck 4 bolts, compare to the three ! Stratocaster from the end 60’s fitted with a maple cap on a maple neck… (4 bolts too !) So, and as you say Rob, a Hank’s (Black) Stratocaster certainly made by Fender in 1970. Because, before this date (1970) the Stratocaster fitted with a « maple neck » (like the Jimmy Hendrix White Strat) were always made with a maple cap (glued) on a maple neck… (Never in one piece) Then and after 1971, if the neck on a Stratocaster is again made in one piece maple, appears in the same time, the « bullet truss rod » and the « tilt neck » but ALSO with a neck always screwed on the body by three bolts… So no doubt, with these details, to recognize one of them. Now: In the video : youtu.be/sRtSl9lLaRI, if you take a look on the Hank’s Sunburts Strat at 2’10 you can see the « bullet truss rod » just after the nut. That’s mean that this Strat Sunburst is a (brand ) new ! model made in 1973… And we can be sure that this Strat Sunburst is an other guitar than the Black Strat that Hank will played at the same time ? or a little beat later. In 1980 December in Paris Mogador theater Hank played this (pick ups modified) Black Strat on stage. Back stage I saw this Strat putted on a stand and I remember (before having it in hands) having say to Hank: « Do you know if your Strat is a 4 bolts ? » And Hank to answer: I don’t know I never return it ! It’s Hank ! But we love him for that… Paul If you have to meet hank in a near future please say hello to him for me... Thank you ! Regards Patrice (and excuse me for my english mistakes... I don't practice enough to day !)
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Post by patrice on Jun 11, 2019 8:16:42 GMT
Hi all,
I would just want to add that the ex Tony Hicks 57 Stratocaster, that Hank bought and played (sometimes) during 20 years, is now the property of a french collector that I know very well... Before that ! Hank showed me (in private) his 57 Strat a couple years later (83 /84 ?) that he bought (!) my 58 Fiesta Red in December 80 in Paris... For the history: The ex Tony Hicks 57 Strat is a TWO tone Sunburst (without red) and his serial number is # -22102 For sure, Hank used it between 1980 and 2002. Now: When you take a look to the video with John Farrar, the Strat that Hank plays is a « 70's" Fender guitar with a 3 tone Sunburst and large headstock...
Best regards from Paris Patrice
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Post by patrice on Apr 22, 2017 19:39:52 GMT
Hi Mike Excuse me ! You're right... I wanted to say "beats" not "bars"... (The reason of my mistake: I don't practice enough english every day ! ) Now If your friend take a look on this video : www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDqaFnFELz8He 'll see that Bruce plays the chords : F / Dm and C / Am (during the three verses) in the same part of the neck and all near the nut... (Nothing really difficult ?) So, and "just" with a little bit more work, I think it's better to play the "complete" Bruce's chords list, than a simply version even if this one sounds OK ! Best regards from Paris Patrice
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Post by patrice on Apr 22, 2017 11:53:44 GMT
Hi Mike and Rosemary Just a remark about the chords played by Bruce during the three verses (1,2 and 3) of Wonderful Land. Bruce don’t play only : G – D – F – C – C – F – Bb – G and during 4 bars for each chord but G – D (each for 4 bars, right, but) then F - Dm - C - Am - C - Am - F - Dm (for only two bars each) and then Bb – G (each again for 4 bars) So and if you want to « copy » Bruce… Regards Patrice
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Post by patrice on Jan 7, 2016 16:55:52 GMT
Hi Rob, Thank you very much for your pictures. No doubt, with these pictures, that on the #34346 the G poles are lower that normal. If you compare with the picture of the "standard" 58 Strat pick up, it's an evidence Now Rob, you posted also a picture of an 59 Strat pick up with a G pole shorter... The stagger top picture prouve it ! Right, but as I said, the main difference of this 59 Strat pick up compare with the 34346 ones, is that if you take now a look on its stagger bottom side, you can see that this G pole overpassed the other ones. And if it overpasses the other poles that mean that some body pushed down that pole (with a hammer !)... It's means that this G pole has originally the "standard" normal length (the same as the 58 standard pick up) Because: One more time in the case of the 34346 the pole is factory CUT shorter... And this pick up seen from the stagger bottom side you can see that the whole poles are "flat". It's the reason why, with the help of this trick, if you see an old Strat pickups with a shorter G pole, by taking a look on its bottom side, you have 99% of chance to say that this pole was pushed down with a hammer... In contrary, seeing an original Fender Strat pick ups fitted with a shorter (cut) G pole from the factory, for my own I saw that just only one time in my life, on a 1955... Two times with the #34346 ! It's the reason why this kind of Fender pickup is rare to find... But ! Yesterday morning I met my friend André Duchossoir and spoke with him about this "curiosity"... He was not able to confirm or invalidate that, and particulary in 1959, many (or only some ones... or only two ! the #34346 and the #33649 ) Strats (maple or rosewood fingerboard) were factory equipped with this kind of shorter G pole pick ups ? But André promised me to take a look in his documentation and to the whole of his Strat pictures, and then, he 'll tell me his conclusions... So: To be continued ! Best regards Patrice P-S : Pardon for my english mistakes...
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Post by patrice on Jan 2, 2016 22:34:33 GMT
Hi Rob You are totally right when you speak about a shorter length of the G poles found on the three pick ups of the #34346. But, if the three G magnet/poles on this Strat are (really !) shorter, it’s not only because somebody pushed them down… with a hammer ! It’s because and compare with a "normal » length of a G pole (on a regular Strat pick up) the lengths of each one, on the #34346, are CUT shorter than as usual. In practice and more surely, it’s just six E first length magnets put in G position. It’s the reason why, if you can take a look on the bottom of these three pick ups, the whole magnets are "flat » and in the same plan… That means that the three Strat pickups of and fitted on the #34346 was « specially » built with a factory intention… For my own, and during the 20 years that I sold, in Paris, Vintage american Guitars, I only saw (on a little bit more than one hundred sold) ONE other (1955) maple neck Strat with this same pick up characteristic… It’s the reason why I really think that this (built) « curiosity » is pretty rare to see and to find on a 50’s Stratocaster. So, Rob and If you have a picture of an other 1959 maple neck Start equipped on its three pick ups with G magnets/poles shorter, I’m very interested to see it. Now the good double question is to know: Why the Fender factory sent to Cliff a Stratocaster fitted with these « particular » three pick ups ? Why Fender proposed as soon as (it seems) 1955 three Strat pick ups with a shorter length on the G poles ? First answer ? (But who knows ?!) May be because the Stratocaster (all options !) ordered by Cliff, was directly available « like that » (in March 1959) in the factory ? Keep in mind that Fender guitar with "all options » (Custom color + Gold hardware + this fantastic complexity piece of wood for its maple neck) is « rare" , compare to the whole Stratocaster production made during the 50’s. So and if this Strat was yet assembled with it’s terrific look ! may be Leo Fender thought that THIS Strat was perfect "like this" for a British singer ? And no doubt that the #34346 did ! And always does… In addition, don’t forget also that, for Fender, the first neck production with a « slab rosewood » fingerboard added on the maple, appears in May 59… Only two mouths later than the « official » order of Cliff. So: If the #34346 was directly available like Cliff asked and wanted why, for Fender, obligatory modified its pick guard assembly by changing its three « custom » pick ups by a three "regular" other ones ? But ?!!!... Second answer: We can imagine that if the G poles are shorter on these three pick ups it’s not only « pour faire joli » ! But and more surely (?!) for mounting, on the guitar, a set of strings with a G plain… Because, on a pick up, if the length of the magnet on the G string is shorter, the first idea it’s to compensate the lowest output level delivered by a G wound string compare with a G plain… If we remained James Burton, he put (in the late 50’s) on his Fender a « special » set of strings (doing by himself !) from an original 13-54 Fender set, by adding a banjo 0.10 string for the E first. So in final a string gauge = 10,13,17, 26, 36, 46, with the original B plain string gauge 0.17 becoming the G (plain) string… So it's always possible to think that some others american guitarists, who wanted, like James Burton, to equip their Strat with a custom set strings with a G plain, asked Fender to made these "special" Strat pick ups ?… But may be also that Leo Fender and/or Freddie Tavares or George Fullerton thought to this "custom" possibility before the guitarists ?!... I just want to add that for the "Shadows 50th anniversary» limited edition Stratocaster made by the custom Shop, the #34346 was cloned… it's the reason why, on this re-issu Strat, and if the three pick ups were specially hand wound by Abigail Ybarra (which was a very good idea ! Mike ) the shorter lengths of the G magnets / poles were respected too… But does it mean that, with this kind of pick ups, you have to put, a plain string for the G one ? Theoretically yes… But in practice ? Surely that Hank in 1960 did not ask him the question, because no body knew the reason why the G poles were shorter… or (simply) realized that these G poles were shorter than "normal" ! Best regards and Happy New Year ! Patrice
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Post by patrice on Dec 26, 2015 10:35:15 GMT
Hi Mike,
I just want to add : At the time of the #34346 Cliif's Strat, there was only one type of pickup (and always the same) designed for the Strat. This pick up was built with: Six Alnico 5 staggered magnets A bobin « manual » wound with a 42 gauge copper wire, isolated « Formvar" and with around 8500 turns = a DC resistance around 6000 Ohms.
These electric characteristics were used between 1955 and 1962 (In 1954 the magnets were Alnico 3 not Alnico 5 and eight years later, with the beginning of the « L series » = end of 62, the 42 wire gauge passed from an isolation Formvar to Enamel. In the same time the winding passed from « manual » to 100% automatic.) So If you are looking for a set of three Strat pick ups « identical » or with the nearest characteristics than a 50’s Fender Strat pick up, you have to choose (as Charlie said in the forest of the 2015 possibilities !) the one which is built with: Six Alnico 5 staggered magnets A bobin wound with a 42 gauge wire, isolated « Formvar » If possible « hand wound » (Abigail for Fender did that recently ! otherwise…) With a number of turns of + or - 5% 8000 = a DC resistance of + or- 5% : 6000 Ohms. So: I think that, for Fender, the 50’s Fat Strat set is the nearest of the whole Start pick up sets re-issues of this company… The only difference of one of this 50’s Fat Strat pick up compare with an « original » 50’s pick up is its automatic winding (not manual). But the three pick up are built « identical » like in the 50's. Remark : In the 50’s and because the pick ups are « manual wound », each one is a little bit different (DC resistance different) from the other one (!) In addition when the pick guard was assembled with these "same" pick ups, the « luthier » took each of the them in a « box». So totally by chance ! Not by thinking put the most hot resistance in bridge position and the less one in front… So and now: If you take a look to the possible Fender re-issu sets (all of them wound automatically): For the 54’s Fender re-issu one (and if the magnets and the type of wire are "correct") the bridge pick up is obligatory «boosted » … Not essential for playing the Shadows…
Now and with a 57/62 set, this set is not really better due to its wire isolated Enamel and its winding done automatically… (All of them with the same numbers of turns) It’s the reason why I think that, for Fender, the 50’s Fat Start pick ups set is the nearest to « clone » the original 50’s Fender Start Pick ups, even if (like the others..) they are automatically wound.. In final, I also think that (for exemple) Fralin is able to propose the « same » 50's pick ups because and in addition of the same electric characteristics, Fralin pickups might be « hand wound »…
Best regards from France Patrice
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Post by patrice on Aug 20, 2015 14:45:26 GMT
"15 hours ago localhero said: Possibly the worst demonstration I have ever seen. He didn't even understand the controls." I mainly think that this guy: 1) never understood something about the complexity of the Shadows echoes during the Early Years... and worst ! 2) it seems that he don't know any Shadows hits (!!!) of this period... So what kind of "demo" are you able to do in these conditions ? So don't worry Charlie because I can say that we have the same in France !!! Regards Patrice
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