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Post by kipper on Jan 4, 2009 21:56:40 GMT
hi all. i was wondering how you all read your music. tab, proper sheet music, or play by ear ect.? i have allways been intrested in music, but never got around to playing any untill about 4 years ago. im 60 now. i have taught myself how to play, i`m not really one for learning with someone teaching me. (but know it might be a good thing). not only with music but all things i just like to work it out in my own time and way. i play useing tabs but do feel that you miss out on a lot because if you havent heard a piece before its difficult to understand it. i have tried to listen to music and pick out where on the fret board it should be played, but i dont think i have a good enough ear for it. but i have improved and do know when a note is wrong even slightly out and i now pick up on it ;D. i was thinking about learning how to read music but feel it would be really hard work and that maybe i couldnt put in the time required for how long it would take. i seem to be working harder now with work than when i was younger, and sometimes you just dont have the energy to put in. also would it spoil the playing side as thats what i like the most, i only play for myself at home. you read about people just picking up and playing a guitar as if they were born to do it. thats not me but i enjoy it and will always will, but you can get a bit stunted like hitting a wall with the way you progress, sorry to go on a bit but any tips advice ect, anyone feel the same way? peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 4, 2009 23:47:17 GMT
I have always played by ear. I learned by watching and listening to others play. Reading music is useful if you play professionally and are required to play a piece, sometimes without rehearsal. For everything else, I don't think it is essential. If you think about it, what would you achieve other than the self satisfaction of being able to read music? You could write your own music if you were able to compose a piece, but it is sufficient to record it. I have often thought that some who play by reading music can lack the feeling of expression. I am not discounting music theory, which is useful even if you don't read. Such things as when to call a note G# or Ab. Or what to call the 8 notes of a scale in a certain key. These things matter more if you play an instrument that does not have a tempered scale, such as a piano, and especially if you read music. A guitar has a tempered scale, so we guitarists can tend to ignore these rules. Examples of notes in a major scale in various keys: Key of C. C D E F G A B C Key of E. E F# G# A B C# D# E Key of Eb. Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb Key of Gb. Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb Key of F#. F# G# A# B C# D# E# F# Note that in the last 2 examples (which are in fact the same key to guitarists!) I called a note Cb, when in fact as far as guitarists are concerned it is B, and I called a note E#, when it is in fact F. Why? So that each note in the major scale always has a different letter. This is how it should be done. There are also occasions when double sharp notes and double flat notes are used. I was taught this very briefly by the father of a lead singer in a band I was in many years ago, who had served in the Royal Navy as a musician. Something to think about perhaps, but don't get too hung up about it if you play by ear. They say those who can't do should teach. Well all I can say is that I don't know everything! Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 0:07:22 GMT
HI PETER ,, I am in your boat as I am only a learner ,but only play by ear[cannot read music at all] ,I am now 69 & it's not that easy to remember the tunes after nutting them out ,but what the ''hell'' I enjoy it & that mean's ''all'' to me .. what has helped me the most is joining this & the previous msn site ,because I can seem to play better if the ''sound'' is right to my ear's... MY problem is that I enjoy fiddling around getting sound's & am happy to do that as much as learning new tune's? ?? I fell in love with guitar sounds in my teenage-years & started on building amp,& echo gear & could play a few [not just shadow's but other's as well] but went to speedway racing ,having children, etc etc ,and only took it up again 3 odd year's ago & the enjoyment I am getting out of it is great.. I really admire the talent's of our member's posting sound file's etc,& I feel I won't get to that stage ,,but it's not important to me at this time & who know's it may happen one day,It may just all come together? ? SO peter I think there are many of us out there just enjoying playing at home ,, CHEERS mate .............................barry..
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Post by noelford on Jan 5, 2009 7:55:54 GMT
I've played by ear all my life and don't use tabs, either. I've never seriously considered learning to read music - that's probably because I tend to improvise a lot. I once played in the pit for a scout Gang Show and memorised everything (although I did have written chords to follow, too). Even then I couldn't resist the urge to improvise!
My advice would be to keep going the way you are. The more you play, the more you will learn your fretboard, and picking out tunes by ear will become easier and easier.
Noel
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Post by bill on Jan 5, 2009 8:00:03 GMT
Hi, The only time I made any progress with the guitar was when I had a teacher and I was learning both to play and read music at the same time. That was learning new music that I hadn't heard before.
Now, I only try to play music that I have already heard and know and I also find it easier if I have the music and the tablature but I can't sight read now. So, I use everything (I need all the help I can get)!
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Post by asimmd on Jan 5, 2009 9:21:33 GMT
I started to play when I bought Apache and thought, I could do that.
In those day's there were no teachers for that sort of music so you had to learn it yourself. Sitting in the bedroom with my Dansette Major De-luxe record player,leaving the Arm up so the record played over and over,trying to match the sound to the fretboard.
I am 61 now,and have played by ear all my life,no time for reading music or tabs,it's all foreign to me,I am lucky enough to hear a tune and be able to play it.
Alan
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Post by kipper on Jan 5, 2009 15:33:03 GMT
hi all thanks for those replys. i thought more would say learn the music. charlie i was watching a dvd of the eagles first reforming as a band again, and they had an ochestra playing with them, they were playing it as per the sheet music but don henley got really upset with them as they wernt doing it as he wanted it. which is what you are saying ""with feeling of expression"", not just reading the notes on the paper. barry i agree with you on how much the right sound helps. noel thats a very good point about improvising. we all want to express are selfs in our own way, i have started to do that in the short time i have been playing and find it gives you a good buzz. bill i`m with you i need all the help i can get mate. alan playing by ear is something i dream about and hope one day i will do just that. one thing i have found that helps me a lot was taking guitars to bits and building one from scratch, seeing how they work ect. thanks for all the replys they do reinforce my thoughts about wanting my playing to be spontanous. brilliant site this. thanks peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 5, 2009 20:13:24 GMT
For anyone who hasn't already done so, I recommend practising scales. Major scales (do, re, mi, fa, so etc.) will do. If you have a piano in the house, find the C note and call it #1, then just play all the white notes until you reach the C note of the next octave. That is a major scale and you don't need to learn how to play a piano to understand it. You will notice that there are no black keys between notes 3 and 4, and also 7 and 8. Learn a major scale on one string so you understand the spacings (ie. no space between notes 3 and 4, and no space between 7 and 8), then progress to scales using more than one string. You can start on any note and construct the scale starting from there. You can go down as well as up (just starting on note 8 and finishing on note 1). Doing this will take you a long way to understanding the relationship between notes if you haven't already done it. Relative minors are another fairly simple concept. The easiest example is probably C and Am (first two chords in Sleepwalk). The scale in the key of C is exactly the same as the scale in Am, except that the starting point is different, but the essential thing is that all the 8 notes are the same. Other examples are A and F#m, also D and Bm. The minor chord root is always 3 semitones lower than its relative major chord root. Root just means the first note in the scale. As an example of what isn't a relative minor, Am isn't the relative minor to A. The flattened third in what would have been the major scale of A is a C note and this is mainly what makes C and Am relative). Regards, Charlie
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Post by kipper on Jan 5, 2009 23:02:17 GMT
thanks for that charlie i will give it a go. peter
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Post by rhando on Jan 6, 2009 0:46:02 GMT
Hi Peter, Just to put in my two cents worth............for what it's worth I, like many it seems picked up the guitar again recently, drawn back to my teen years I guess. (Never got over the Shadow's stuff!!) Never learned music, always played by ear, originally, on an old acoustic guitar......but I had fun. I took the plunge a couple of years ago and treated myself to a "Strat" (best thing I ever did!!) When I started to play the numbers on an electric guitar some of the tunes just didn't sound right . On "Wonderful Land" there was a section that when I played along with the record my brain just refused to recognise. It used to drive me "nuts". I decided, even tho' I didn't really know what they were, to get the tabs for it. It took me a while to figure them out (numbers and strings, how hard could that be ) but when I did , "BINGO", I was off on two notes.........I finaly had it right, after 40 years. I'm only a "play for my own amusement guy" but I like to get it right. So tabs are a big help to me when I am unsure. Unsure of where to start a tune, how to play the double stops (didn't know what they were 'till recently) and some of the intrumentals where some chords are thrown in....... I can't recognise a chord by ear. Another example was "Guitar Tango", for 40 years I've been playing it 2 frets too low. Anyway, what I'm saying is for guys like us, tabs can be really helpful. Ray.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 6, 2009 1:36:39 GMT
I didn't mention tabs, but that doesn't mean that I don't think they are good. I am interested in Chet Atkins' style of playing, and there are a fair number of tabs on the internet for those tunes. There is a free program called TefView that can not only display TablEdit tabs but also the music as it would be written for all the parts and even play the tunes as MIDI files as well. It even displays a guitar fingerboard and maps out the notes as they are played. I haven't searched for Hank and Shadows tunes in this format as I can play the tunes I want by ear, but they might be out there. Regards, Charlie
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Post by garystrat on Jan 6, 2009 16:18:58 GMT
Hi Charlie
Whilst its not free, there is a very good programme called Guitar Pro 5, which works in a similar way. This shows musical notation as well as TAB, plus fret board. It also has the option of selecting realistic instruments for playback, which can be turned down for you to play the lead part.
There is also a built in TAB search section, which it will import in several formats.
Gary
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Post by gtangring on Jan 6, 2009 16:28:22 GMT
Hi
I started out learning to read music in my teens, about the same time as I was learning the guitar. However, most of my playing melody lines, blues and riffs is based upon playing by ear. For classical music reading is essential if you want it right, though.
Bear in mind that sight-reading, playing straight from the written music, is much more difficult for guitar-players (and other fretted string-instruments) than for most other instruments including keyboard-based ones. The guitar can produce the same note in up to 4 or 5 different places on the fretboard whereas keyboard-based and single-note instruments have the same note always in the same place.........
Tabs can be of two kinds, one which mimics written music indicating bars and time-values and this type can be used in the same way, interpreting unknown musical pieces. The other kind can only be used for music already known by the player as it only indicates which notes are to be played and in which position.
Tabs can be used to clarify exactly how certain passages must be executed on a specific instruments such as a guitar, ordinary written music does not have all the tools for doing that.
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Post by ha2he on Jan 7, 2009 0:29:22 GMT
Hi All, I started trying to read music shortly after I started trying to play the guitar. I'd learnt a few chords and wanted to know more and that seemed to be the way forward. Being the self taught type I obviously approached it all wrong and found it very frustrating to say the least. This playing the guitar lark should be fun I thought, after all I'm not trying to split the atom. I still have some early sheet music I bought to learn, and although now faded by time still has the names of the notes in pencil underneath the dots. I learnt the tunes like that and although I did get faster at learning it was obvious this was not the best route either. Importantly I learned the spacings between notes (T T S T T T S) T = Tone, S = Semitone or put simply Tone = 2 frets Semitone = 1 fret. This being a Major pattern. I felt like I was getting somewhere at last. I then stumbled upon a diagram of all the notes of this pattern on a fretboard but outlined in small chunks of four (or so ) frets. I found it quite easy to memorize these little chunks, more importantly I did not need to memorize every note on the fretboard. If I need to change key, easy, just shift the patterns. This approach allowed me to learn quickly and also my ears were learning at the same time. I began to find different patterns (Scales) too, Pentatonic (5 notes), Blues, minor etc, it was becoming more fun and enjoyable. I figured out how the chords sat within those patterns too and it all made much more sense than staring at sheet music and trying to learn the theory of it all. Don't get me wrong, I congratulate anyone who knows that stuff. Later on I discovered tabs which for me made the whole thing of learning a tune so much easier, they are not always correct though, neither is sheet music for that matter. I gave up trying to read music long ago, I'm still trying to play the guitar though For me now it's about pleasure not punishment, above all it should be fun. Regards, Tim.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 7, 2009 1:40:02 GMT
For those that need to, I will give some time for practising scales, then when I have more time, I will post something about chords and how they are constructed. After that, hopefully no one will need to refer to a chord book to figure out how to play a chord they haven't heard of before. Meanwhile, there is a great site that deals with guitar chords and although I have posted this link on the old site I think it is appropriate to post it again: www.chordbook.com/guitarchords.phpRegards, Charlie
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Post by ha2he on Jan 7, 2009 19:19:11 GMT
Hi Charlie, I look forward to being able to learn more about scales and the like, I'm sure it can only help my basic understanding, that should probably read misunderstanding I seem to have muddled my way through this subject and never really had a good grasp on it, I've never been truly happy with my knowledge of it. Regards, Tim.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 7, 2009 19:36:57 GMT
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Post by ha2he on Jan 7, 2009 21:22:10 GMT
Hi Charlie,
Just had a quick peek at the sites you listed. I had not seen the middle one of your posting before and it looks very interesting, thanks for that. Maybe if this continues as a discussion between members (sorry I meant friends) do you think a new thread in music tuition would be more appropriate ?
Regards, Tim.
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Post by ha2he on Jan 7, 2009 21:36:54 GMT
Hi Charlie,
A quick look around the middle of your selections and this is very good indeed, full of useful information, that's not to say the other two aren't but it seems deeper, and it's nice to know I had figured some of it out correctly.
Now, if someone could explain modes in plain english, or in a way I can understand, guitar nirvana.
Thanks Charlie, Tim.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 7, 2009 23:05:54 GMT
Hi Tim, As I have always played by ear, I have never thought too much about the modes contained in any particular tune. Maybe the best way to understand the different types of scales is to practise each one until you have a feel for how each one sounds. I would be doing that myself if I had more time! Regards, Charlie
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 8, 2009 15:17:37 GMT
Hi Tim, I am not sure whether this thread should be in the Tuition section as that section was originally intended for videos. Maybe it is best left here in General? Regards, Charlie
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Post by ha2he on Jan 8, 2009 21:04:17 GMT
Hi Charlie,
I think you're right and it should be left here as it would look out of place with the videos.
Regards, Tim.
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Post by rogerbayliss on Jan 10, 2009 15:13:30 GMT
I learned to read music at school in the brass band and went on to play in a local orchestra and dance band. At the time I could have a sheet put in front of me and start to play it almost immeadiately. When I left school I did not have an instrument because mom and dad could not afford it and wages were not good enough at time. Around the age of 18 I bought my first guitar and I had some lessons in the 70's which were based on musical theory. However these days I play mostly by ear and seldom consider trying to read music and over the years I find I forget most of it !! Does not really matter so long as you have a good grasp of things and you enjoy what you do.
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UK Brian
Member
I have my sound, and I luv it
Posts: 440
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Post by UK Brian on Jan 17, 2009 12:10:52 GMT
Hi Peter and all, when at school I learned to read music ( yuk ) and play piano ( more yuk ) I mean you need two eyes looking at different lines and to make it worse a "dot" on the top line treble would be a G note but on the bass line it would have a different name, anyway when I played piano as I played each and every note I knew instantly what the note was called, now when I play guitar, ok I know a fair number of the notes , given the time I can work them all out, but the pleasure of playing guitar is more important to me than knowing names of notes, in fact I tend to think in terms of shapes cos most of my time in our little band is playing lead stuff, we did at one time have a chap playing with us who was truly great at rhythm/chords almost a one man band he was , really good, BUT.........ha did not know the name of any of the chords he played, sad or wot !! Peter, just play and enjoy
cheers
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 22:26:24 GMT
HI ALL ,,I can't read music at all & don't play well iether but enjoy my meagre playing by ''ear''
''HEY '' UK BRIAN ''ROGERS -MEAN-CAT'' is looking'' hungerally'' at your ''gremlin'' ..
I LOVE that ''CAT'' the best avitar on site!!!!!!!!
CHEERS barry..
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UK Brian
Member
I have my sound, and I luv it
Posts: 440
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Post by UK Brian on Jan 18, 2009 10:35:40 GMT
Barry : I do like Rogers cat but Gremlins have hidden powers, surely you know that ;D , your only saying that cos I once said that Charlie oven was after your smiley ;D ;D, maybe we should have a vote for best looking gremlin on the site LOL ;D I must say to you, will you please stop putting yourself down, I feel that most of us on this site play for pleasure, our pleasure and that's what it's about at our time of life anyway, I feel sure you are loads better than you keep making out, when I was in motor racing we used to call it "sandbagging" cheers Brian
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2009 11:24:51 GMT
''RACING-CAR'S '' brian I did not know that you were a ''rev-head'' ,as I was ,as I raced speedway for years in formula 500 's. & later super modified class & only gave-up dirt-circuit racing locally about 4-5 years ago.. TELL us more but maybe on the no topic's site.. cheers ...brian ..............barry..
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