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Post by Len on May 16, 2009 8:12:12 GMT
Hank plays a Lakewood guitar on the 2004 Final Concert series. This can be seen on the DVD. I think Bruce plays another guitar, possibly a Gibson. Hank's guitar sounds awful IMHO on that particular concert. He spoke recently in an interview of a problem with feedback with acoustic guitars because they cannot avoid having the monitors right in front of them. He concedes that they would sound better if they could be placed to the side but has to use that setup due to stage plan considerations. If you look at the DVD, you will see that he has the rubber plug in the soundhole, obviously conscious of potential feedback. However this makes the guitar sound very much more "processed" than any electric guitar would to my ears. I don't think the Matons sound like that. I have seen Tommy Emmanuel play a Maton (I was only a few metres away). It does not sound processed at all, even with the soundhole plug.
I would be interested to hear if anyone agrees with me about the sound of that guitar on the DVD.
By the way, I have played an Australian made Cole Clark guitar (belongs to my daughter - I was minding it for her for a while) and one of the guys in the band I play with has one too. I think that they are better than the Matons (made by an ex-Maton guy) with their 7 or 8 piezos placed at various points on the guitar (6 strings on the bridge plus 3 others). You can adjust the balance between the bridge and soundbound piezos too. There is no feedback with those, even if the monitors are right in front of you. It doesn't need a plug either. Great guitar -- have any of you heard one?
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Post by Len on May 24, 2009 0:32:33 GMT
Hi to All
Maybe my last post was a little out of line with the "friendly" tone of this site. It was not intended to be that way. It was mainly about "Guitar Tango" to which my comments were directed. Hank's sound was not really "awful" (bad choice of words). I just thought it could have been better matched to Bruce's great sound. The rest of the concert was great I thought and the KCP amps had a lot of "grunt" at appropriate times.
To change the subject a little though still related to Hank's guitars, I have often wondered why the Burns guitars sound so different to the Strats. Is it the pups or the wood or something else? After a little research, I discovered, much to my surprise that the wieight of each guitar is roughly the same it would appear. The Burns guitars looked to me so much heavier. Perhaps it is just the hardware that makes the Burns look heavy. Since I don't know where anyone could find a Burns in Australia, I was wondering whether anyone could tell me about what accounts for the very different sound of that guitar when compared to the Burns.
Regards Len
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Post by Charlie Hall on May 24, 2009 2:42:56 GMT
Hi Len, I don't think your post was seen as being out of tone with the site, more likely no one had anything useful to add to it. I think the difference between the Strat and Burns sound would be mainly due to the RezoTube bridge system on the Burns models, which I understand can vary from model to model. Maybe also the pickups of the originals had a certain sound of their own too. Roberto Pistolesi once told me that he thought it was mainly due to the magnets used at the time. Regards, Charlie
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Post by peterbower on May 24, 2009 18:30:31 GMT
charlie's right concerning the Rezotube bridge on the Burns. A big difference in the sound is, firstly the Strat has a bridge where the strings bend at a right angle over the bridge saddles and then feed down into a heavy sustain block. This is where the strats interface between string vibration and the wooden body are coupled. On the Burns, the interface is some what of a weak link in this area, A good vintage Strat should have a bit more sustain than a Burns for this reason. Every thing is variable but these are the significant differences rather than laying blame on pickups. The nut is the other major area of coupling and necks no matter what make we are looking at play a major role in the guitars tone, acoustic volume and sustain.
Peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on May 24, 2009 19:03:46 GMT
Hi Peter, My theory on the sustain (not very scientific, more to do with how I hear things) is that because of the different coupling at the bridge, the Burns seems to have more sustain in some ways than a Strat, and less in others. Maybe something to do with the frequencies that couple well and others that do not, depending which system we are looking at. Regards, Charlie
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Post by peterbower on May 24, 2009 22:22:22 GMT
Hi Charlie In the same way a Gibson Les Paul has good sustain.
There are too many variables in a guitars construction such as how tight a fit is the neck in the pocket. How well was the wood seasoned and type of wood etc etc.
Generally speaking The total mass of the Fender bridge such as the top plate, the saddles, the sustain block, trem springs and 6 fulcrum screws lend themselves as a good path for the string vibration to enrole the body wood in the overall sound. Its just a bit more efficiant at doing this than a Burns due to the physics of construction. This is not to say that a Burns has no sustain, of course it does but it is achieved from a different set of physics.
I much prefer the sound of a Fender Strat to a Burns but that is just a personal opinion. Regards Peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on May 24, 2009 22:43:28 GMT
Hi Peter, I have always preferred the sustain qualities of a good Strat, seems much more direct to me somehow. I was trying to explain the differences in an unbiased way. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Len on May 25, 2009 6:32:22 GMT
Hi Peter and Charlie and other CH Friends
I don't mid the Burns sound on some of the Shadows tunes but, like Peter, I think I prefer the versatility and sound of the Strat. I guess it's different strokes for different folks as far as guitars are concerned. I would love to buy a Strat someday but am very happy with my 1979 Washburn Falcon (Wing Series). It is an extremely heavy guitar but sustains beautifully. I can get both the single pickup sound and humbucker sound with the push-pull Volume switches. I like its versatility. It is nothing like a Strat though.
The only Wahburn similarity to a Strat is the way the strings run at right angles. I always thought that the brass nut and bridge pieces gave the Washburn its incredible amount of sustain. However, perhaps it had something also to do with the bridge system which sounds like the description of the sustain block on the Strat explained by Peter. I once loaned that guitar to a fellow who used to play around my home town of Melbourne and on television on occasions. He played half a concert using my guitar and said that it compared well with his Les Paul (he was probably using the humbuckers). The weight of my guitar (and many other factors) seems to make it difficult to make the Washburn sound like a Strat though. I find it interesting to try to understand what makes one guitar sound so different to another.
I guess the Strat has proved to be the most popular guitar ever, according to most polls I have seen anyway. Many of my personal favourite guitarists, HBM, Eric Clapton, Eric Johnson, Jeff Beck (along with many others of course) played Strats.
In the meantime, I just try to get the best sound with what I have. Regular focussed practise, correct technique and attention to detail (good guitar cords, strings, suitable amps, regular tube replacement, etc.) are all important in getting the best sound possible I think. Charlie's very useful info re delays has also been a big help to me personally recently. I'm starting to get there with the Shadow's sound as a result of this even though I need a good delay unit along with the EFTP and a Strat to nail the sound. Thanks to you once again for your earlier help on the road towards that goal Charlie.
Regards Len
Regards Len
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Post by peterbower on May 25, 2009 8:13:21 GMT
Hi Len, Charlie and all
I don't dislike the Burns sound, i just prefer the Strat's sound.
There are other guitars that sound just like a Strat, for example my Patrick Eggle LA Custom sounds like a Strat mainly due to it being of the same design and lay out as a Strat.
Over the years i have found that no two Strats even from the same production line sound exactly the same.
One Burns that really got my attention was a model that used a Strat type bridge [not Marquee, and i forget it's name]. Its sound was a Strat mainly due to the bridge design. Perhaps some one can recall the name for me.
Regards
Peter
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Post by perky1202 on Jun 1, 2009 21:14:36 GMT
Hi guys, I know that Hank did use a Black Fender Strat with a black scratch plate and maple neck in 1978 - for the "Thank You Very Much" Reunion concert with cliff richard, as I have it on DVD it has been remastered, and released in 2004. I also have on video cassette, Cliff and The Shadows "Togerther'84" filmed at the Birmingham N E C. In that concert, Hank can be seen using a Burns double six in Green sunburst he uses it to play Don't Talk To Him. Regards Kevin
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Post by bor64 on Jun 2, 2009 21:46:11 GMT
Perky, that black strat had golden hardware! I saw that guitar in 1980 just lesser than 3 feet so.....
I own an exact copy of that guitar.
Rob
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Post by perky1202 on Jun 29, 2009 12:18:31 GMT
Hi Rob, Just a quick appology for my mistake on that Black Strat, but it apeared to be chrome when I watched him play it on the DVD, but I stand corrected. Thanks for setting the record straight. I have updated the post in reflection.
Regards Kevin
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Post by Len on Jun 29, 2009 15:07:55 GMT
Hi All
In the September 1977 Issue of Guitar Player Magazine, Hank is shown holding a Stratocaster with two chrome Gibson style humbucking pickups in the neck and bridge positions. There appears to be a single black pickup in the middle position (Hank's hand partially covers it).
Does anyone know if Hank used humbuckers on recordings and how often? 'Rockin' with Curly Leads' seems to have some humbucker type sounds but I don't really know what guitars were used in that period. A thicker or heavier tone can be produced in a variety of ways I guess. It seems to me however, that HBM was doing a lot of experimentation with sounds following the breakup in 1968 for quite some time and when John Farrar came on the scene for a while.
Cheers Len
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 29, 2009 18:02:51 GMT
Hi Len, I think Hank played a Les Paul around that time. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Len on Jun 29, 2009 23:18:56 GMT
Hi Charlie
Yes Charlie, I recall reading somewhere that Hank did play a Gibson at one point or another for a while. It could have been in this interview report. I probably should have read the interview along with the photo but it was around 1 a.m. when I posted the first one. You are right about the Gibson I am sure as the following shows.
The guitar in the black and white photo was a Strat as you can see the unmistakable logo imprinted quite clearly on the head. Hank talks about his current Strat in the interview. He says, "It has a Gibson pickup on the front, a regular Fender pickup on the back, and the one in the middle is a regular Stratocaster pickup with a Gibson bass cover, which looks a bit neater."
The only thing is that the guitar he describes in the interview does not appear to quite match the one in the photo because the pickup "on the back" looks more like a Gibson humbucker to me and not a "regular humbucker". This might be explained as a mistake in the article (misquote perhaps). I think he may have meant the one on the back, not the middle, as the "regular Stratocaster with the Gibson bass cover." Perhaps the one in the photo is also not the same one described in the interview. That is also a possibility.
Hank goes on to talk about the special switches for all pickup combinations and how he [was] thinking about going back to regular Fenders. He also refers to "Gibson acoustics, a Les Paul Deluxe and a Custom, which in some ways I liked, and in other ways I didn't." He says also that he had five guitars stolen in 1970, borrowed a Strat from Bruce Welch and then bought one and continues by saying that he has used Strats ever since that time. He apparently didn't like the Gibsons because they were heavy, didn't have the tremelo arm and he was making a lot of mistakes with pickup selection with them whilst on stage. He says that he preferred the "overall volume" control on the Strat.
Anyway, there is quite a lot more detail in the article about Hank's guitars, amps and effects. However, I have summarised what I see as most important and relevant to the title of this thread. That's also probably quite enough detail here for one time.
Regards Len
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Post by perky1202 on Aug 2, 2009 11:56:27 GMT
RE: Marvin, Welch & Farrar........
Here is something that may be of interest, I found on the well known auction site - Australia, while I was searching for some guitar tabs of Lady of the morning by Hank, Bruce and John Farrar.
Its a bit of history about the trio "Marvin, Welch & Farrar, and the guitars they used during that brief period"
Marvin, Welch & Farrar
Stock Photo Item Specifics - Books Author: Category: Sheet Music Publisher: Music Sales Ltd. ISBN #: Format: Softcover Condition: Good Publication Year: 1971 Special Attributes:
For sale is a book containing the sheet music for songs by the trio "Marvin, Welch & Farrar"
Book contains a couple of Black & White Photographs of the trio in the centre of the book
Songs included
"Wish You Were Here" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch} "Silvery Rain" {Hank B. Marvin} "Mr. Sun" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch} "My Home Town" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch; John Farrar} "You're Burning Bridges" {Hank B. Marvin} "Take Her Away" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch} "Mistress Fate And Father Time" {Hank B. Marvin; Paul Ferris} "Baby I'm Calling You" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch} "Faithful" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch; John Farrar} "A Thousand Conversations" {Hank B. Marvin; Bruce Welch} "Brownie Kentucky" {Hank B. Marvin} "Throw Down A Line" {Hank B. Marvin} Item weighs 209g. Postage within Australia is $3. I will accept Money Order, Cheque or PayPal in AUD. I do not direct deposit. No international cheques accepted. Payment is required within 14 days of auction end.
Save money on multiple buys. As a general rule items weighing up to 500g can be posted within Australia for $5.50. Items weighing over 500g and less than 3kg can be posted within Australia for $9.60. NB: Some size restrictions apply
Marvin, Welch & Farrar were a 1970s British and Australian popular music group formed by two members of The Shadows as a change of direction manouevre by The Shadows during 1970-73 . The distinction was that while The Shadows were famous for their instrumental work, Marvin Welch & Farrar were a vocal harmony group.
History The group comprised Hank Marvin (b: October 28 1941), on vocals and lead guitar, Bruce Welch (b: 2 November 1941) on vocals and rhythm guitar, and John Farrar (b: 8 November 1946) on vocals and guitar (both lead and rhythm). Reports were appearing in the UK music press in late summer 1970 that Hank Marvin and Bruce Welch were forming a new group.
Marvin: "I thought at the time that, as the Shadows weren't working regularly, it would be nice to do something new - singing rather than instrumental, though with instrumentals as well, of course. I was talking to Bruce about it and I thought about forming a five-piece. He wasn't keen on a big group so we shelved the idea and started writing songs together. He suggested the two of us should record the songs together. I suggested adding one more person - I wanted the extra strength of a third voice and the scope it would offer'.[1]
The third member of the new group was an unknown on the British 'pop' music scene. John Farrar was a member of The Strangers, who had once shared a bill with The Shadows. Bruce Welch had watched the Australian group from the wings of the theater and was impressed by the young singer-guitarist. When Olivia Newton-John reminded Bruce and Hank about John - who was by then married to Pat Carroll, Olivia's ex-singing partner - the duo invited him to send over some tapes, and then to join them.
Farrar:"... Bruce had tried to phone me earlier and had left a message at my mother's house. I had been out working, and had gone home with my wife and we were both fast asleep around 1.30 am when the 'phone rang. When I picked up the 'phone and Bruce told me what he was planning, I couldn't believe it. Pat wanted me to drop everything and fly to London on the next plane, but I was desperately planning to be cool... Pat and I didn't go back to bed until the following morning. We spent the whole night smoking cigarettes, drinking cups of coffee and talking... I was trying so hard to be cool, but if the truth be known I wanted to get on the next plane, too"[2]
The Strangers (Australian band) had been formed in 1961. When founder member Laurie Arthur decided to leave the band in early 1964, he was replaced by the 18-year-old John Farrar. In 1968 they were support act for a Shadows appearance at the Menzies Hotel. The Strangers visited Vietnam in 1970 to play for Australian and U. S. troops, and Farrar spent some time in the United States studying recording techniques in West Coast studios. Then came the invitation to join Hank Marvin and Bruce Welch in London. Three months after the phone call from Bruce, John and Pat were in London and Marvin, Welch and Farrar had begun rehearsing.
'Originally, we planned just to record. But the enormity of John's move across the world and the good reception our album received changed that'. [3]
A 13-week Cliff Richard BBC tv series began in January 1971, and Marvin, Welch and Farrar appeared in five of the shows. It was also announced that the new group would be participating in Cliff Richard's European tour, scheduled for the spring. They would be billed as 'The Shadows - featuring Marvin, Welch and Farrar'. This was apparently for the benefit of audiences on the continent, who might be less familiar with the new vocal group.
The Brian Bennett (musician) Orchestra would be accompanying Cliff's set and both Brian and Shadows bassist John Rostill were to play in the Shadows/Marvin, Welch and Farrar set. In fact session bassist Dave Richmond - who played on the Marvin, Welch and Farrar debut album - replaced Rostill for the tour. The Marvin, Welch and Farrar element in the show was confined to three numbers out of ten.
Although the two ex-Shadows were anxious to emphasise their commitment to the new venture, the public were not so sure. Despite an almost total lack of concert and record appearances, the Shadows were voted Top Instrumental Group in the 1971 New Musical Express poll. Live appearances by the new trio still brought demands from the audience for old Shadows numbers.
Marvin: "... we lost out both ways. We lost out on the old Shadows, and we lost out by not getting through to the people we thought we'd get through to. They just wouldn't accept us."[4] As musicians and songwriters, the group were well respected.
Cliff: "The music was good. Excellent in fact. The engineers and EMI who produced all the Beatles things voted 'Second Opinion' the best album to come out of the company".[5]
'Second Opinion", the trio's second LP, was released in the U. S. on the Sire label, which later released albums by artists such as the Ramones. Marvin, Welch and Farrar records, although well received, did not set the charts alight. The group remained unconcerned, working in the studios or on tour. At other times, they were individually or collectively writing songs, some of which were recorded by Cliff Richard and Olivia Newton-John as well as by the trio. John and Bruce were arranging and producing Olivia's recordings, until she broke off her engagement to the latter, when Farrar alone became responsible for her recording career.
By 1972, however, Bruce Welch had dropped out of the group. The group had perhaps not lived up to his expectations, and some sections of the music press were critical of the Cliff- Shadows- Olivia stable generally. Adverse criticisms, though, did not seem to affect the box-office, and the autumn 1971 Palladium season had been a great success. When Cliff Richard toured in 1972, it was Marvin and Farrar, with the assistance of Brian Bennett (musician) (Cliff's musical director again) who joined him. Also involved were ex-Shadow Alan Hawkshaw, Olivia Newton-John and Pat Carroll. The Marvin/Farrar set mixed Shadows favourites with new material.
Marvin and Farrar recorded one LP as a duo with one track also featuring Bruce Welch, which was presumably originally recorded for a planned Marvin, Welch and Farrar LP. Hank Marvin, on reflection, was less than enthusiastic about that joint album. "it lacked something in direction. It was a bit like Frankenstein meets the Beach Boys".[6]
The album 'Hank Marvin and John Farrar' was also released in the United States, on the Capitol label. Cliff Richard's second appearance in the Eurovision Song Contest was in 1973, and John Farrar was a member of Cliffs backing group. When Cliff toured Australia in the same year, John was musical director for both the gospel and secular segments of the tour. Backing Cliff was John's former group, the Strangers, and the vocal accompaniment was provided by the Pat Carroll Singers.
MW&F gigs Stage appearances by Marvin, Welch and Farrar, and latterly by Marvin and Farrar always resulted in demands for Shadows numbers. So in 1973, Hank and Bruce bowed to the inevitable and announced that the Shadows would come together once or twice a year for recording purposes only. Hank and John would still be working together, and would join with Bruce and Brian as the Shadows. The first LP by the new line-up was due for release in late 1973, and would be entitled 'Rocking with curly leads'.
Almost all the tracks recorded by the group were written by its members, with occasional contributions from co-writers.
Discography (MW&F) Live at the BBC - Unissued - BBCcopywrite - 1970-73. Various sessions. Marvin Welch & Farrar - LP/CD - Regal Zonophone/see4Miles/BGO - 1970. Second Opinion - LP/CD - Regal Zonophone/See4Miles/BGO - 1972. Second Opinion - QuadraphonicLP - Regal Zonophone - 1972. Step from the Shadows - LP/CD - See4Miles - 199?. Very best of MW&F - LP/CD - EMI - 199?. Marvin Welch & Farrar/Second Opinion - CD - BGO - 2006 Cliff Richard live in Japan 1972 - 2LP/8CDBoxSet - ToshibaEMI/EMI - 1971 Lady of the morning/Tiny Robin - 7" - Regal Zonophone - 1972.. Marmaduke/strike a light - 7" - Regal Zonophone - 1971. Mr Sun/Faithful - 7" - Regal Zonophone - 1971. Brownie Kentuckie/... - 7" - (NewZealand) Regal Zonophone - 1971.
Discography (M&F) Hank Marvin and John Farrar - LP/CD - EMI/See4Miles/BGO - 1973. Music Makes My Day/Skin Deep - 7" - EMI - EMI2044. Small & Lonely Light/Galadriel - 7" - EMI - EMI2335.
Guitars used by MW&F/M&F Marvin.(acoustic): Gibson(6+12 sts); Martin D-45, D-28, Yamaha. Marvin.(electric): Burns Marvin. Welch.(acoustic): Martin D-28. Farrar.(acoustic): Martin D-28. Farrar.(electric): Fender Telecaster thin-line w/3 bigsby pedals.
Session musicians Alan Hawkshaw - Keyboards - (1st/2nd albums) Duffy Power - Harmonica - (1st/2nd albums) Dave Richmond - Bass - (1st/2nd albums) Clem Cattini - Drums - (1st/2nd albums) Johnny Van Derek - Fiddle - (1st/2nd albums) Dave Ackley - Live Geoff Atherton - live Andrew Steel - live Alan Tarney - M&F album Trevor Spencer - M&F album Olivia Newton-John - M&F album Brian Bennett - M&F album
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Mar 21, 2013 17:26:15 GMT
Hiya, Just found this thread. Re M/F/W - my Mum & Dad saw them back in '74. My Dad reckons John Farrar played a Les Paul and a Tele Thinline with a neck humbucker and palm string benders. I think he said HBM was playing a Burns.
Nobody's mentioned the '55 two-tone sunburst Strat that HBM had as a backup in the 80s? I saw him play this back in '93 @ the Manchester Apollo on a couple of tunes. I remember an interview he and Bruce did with a magazine called 'Guitar Heroes' in the mid 80s, where he mentions, and there were photos of, his 58 red Strat (the "French one"), the '55 sunburst Strat, a Les Paul type guitar, but it wasn't made by Gibson, and Bruce had '34346', though it was white at that stage. Then, there's the Gretsch 6120 (borrowed from Bruce?) used on a few tracks, most notably 'Nivram', and a "Japanese copy of a White Falcon" on Living Doll. I read recently that he's used Roger Giffin Guitars as well. I know Giffin built a Strat-a-like for Clapton in the 80s (light blue one that he played slide on) and Andy Taylor of Duran Duran had a blue Tele-type Giffin guitar, but I have a gut feeling that the afore mentioned LP type guitar was a Giffin, possibly even a 3/4 or 'smaller than usual' scale guitar(?).
Cheers, Julian
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Post by Bojan Drndic on Mar 22, 2013 7:17:26 GMT
We should also mention the Fender 50th anniversary "Scotsman" special edition Stratocaster that Hank got in 2004. Hank used it on the 2009 reunion concert (C'mon Everybody) The guitar was sold for £3,000 at a charity auction in 2011 . . . shadowmusic.bdme.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5992
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Post by philc on Mar 27, 2013 14:17:24 GMT
Re-sustain, of course, as we all know, two identical guitars won't necessesarily sound the same, I remember back in the 70's when the brass for sustain was all the rage, I made a complete tremolo unit out of brass for my 63 Strat, also a brass nut. Was there a difference? None that I could hear! I later went on to add extra windings to one of the pickups, without effect.
I don't know what happened to that tremolo unit but I wish I still had it just to do a re-comparison today.
Phil
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Post by harley on Mar 27, 2013 21:20:34 GMT
I have made trem blocks from all sorts including brass, aluminium, carbon steel, stainless steel and even copper. To be honest there was little difference between them or indeed between them and the cast blocks they replaced. I have heard of miraculous transformations when replacing cast blocks with steel but ive never heard it myself. without doubt in my mind the big advantages of a steel block are better fitting arms and a much better feel. I wonder how much of a "psycho schematic" effect these kind of mods have on people. You expect there to be an improvement so you hear an improvement. subtle difference? yes, miraculous difference? not in my humble opinion.....
tin hat on ;D
regards Ian
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Post by philc on Mar 27, 2013 22:50:10 GMT
Your right Ian, and mine was not just the block that I made but the whole thing.
Phil
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Post by davechap on Mar 28, 2013 7:46:54 GMT
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