Shadows amplifiers

[fenderplucker]

Hi again,

to get the ball rolling I have copied the following information from a post by Justin Daish (maybe someone could add dates etc?), and what about the Selmers they used at the beginning?):

This is my type of thread . I've done a quick bit bit of "research" on YouTube, searching out certain clips that feature the rarer amps the band used in the early years. The amplifiers changed frequently as Dick Denney (Vox's chief designer) travelled on the road with the Shadows so he could discuss with them what they needed and make alterations to his designs. Here we go then, with my brief Shadows/Vox history...

First of all two tone "TV Front" AC15s (most likely the Circuit Two version) were used. Unfortunatley I don't know a huge amount about these amplifiers. This is one of a handful of clips where they can be seen:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca3CPoIE-04

Then the lads obtained some slightly different AC15s; still a "TV Front" version but not two tone. This time they were just a plain cream, probably decorated with the early Vox diamond pattern. I am sure these AC15s would have been among the first Vox Circuit Three amplifiers. These I'd love to know whether these were ever produced comercially, I've certainly never seen one "in the flesh" before:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuD3N1K_Rjg&feature=related

Then, in pusuit of more volume for theatre shows, Hank requested that Dick Denney design an AC15 with two speakers. Soon after, twelve AC30 prototypes were made, all for the Shadows (it is thought they served different purposes, one set of amps used for recording, one set for stage use). The "TV Front" design was kept and these definitely featured the diamond patterned paper covering. These were the first of the AC30/4 range and are now the most collectible, as the AC30 TV was never put into production. It is unclear just how many of those twelve original amps are still in existence although I know of at least three that are still about. One appeared on the well known auction site around a year ago (it had been recovered in black basketweave) and I cannot remember how the auction ended. I remember one lucky ShadowMusic member saying Hank's old stage AC30/4 had passed through his hands although I cannot remember if he said whether he still owns it today. One is now owned by Phil Kelly who used it at Shadowmania 2007. If there are any more out there I'd love to know of them. Here they are being used on stage:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX9AACWlk7I&feature=related

The AC30/4 was produced for a limited period with the then modern split-front, the typical AC30 design that we know and love. I am unsure if they were made in black or just in tan.

Then the first AC30/6 was made, featuring a copper coloured control panel instead of black. It was the first of the larger Vox amps to not employ an EF86 valve which was considered too impractical to keep using as it was so microphonic. The Treble model was then made due to Hank wanting still to be heard above the rest of the band on stage and can be heard on many of the recordings made whilst Licorice was with the group. I think this the period when the Bass version of the amp began to be produced. Up till this point the bassist had always used identical amps to the two guitarists. The Top Boost preamp was then designed and retro-fitted to Hank's AC30, and soon followed the famous AC30 model where the 12AX7 (Top Boost) valve was built into the amp as standard.

You may be interested to know that Brian Locking owns John Rostill's old AC30 and it is currently stored in Scarborough with Ian Harper.

I have acquired all the above information by word of mouth. I apologise if I have misremembered any facts.

JD.

[alanmckillop]

I referred to the recording of Cliff's live LP in Bruce's guitars and from that session, the amps used were Selmers. Vox AC15's (sometimes referred to as TV front) were next in various disguises, plain, two tone and beige finishes. This was followed by the AC30/4 (also in beige as well as the usual dark livery), then the AC30/6 and lastly the AC30/6 TB.

This is also quite difficult to date as Bruce has said that when they were in the TV studios, they sometimes took the lighter (to carry) AC15 amps. However, as all the amps can be seen in the various programs, it would be difficult to work out what AC15's were used out of convenience rather than necessity, so I'll base my selection on what is recorded.

Selmer - 1958 to 1959
Vox AC15 - 1959 to 1961
Vox AC30/4 - 1961
Vox AC30/6 - 1961 to 1962 (retro fitted TB)
Vox AC30/6 TB - 1962 to 1968

I will try to locate the footage which I have (I can't find it) and will update as necessary if the above (plus Hank and Bruce's guitar) proves to be incorrect.

[fenderplucker]

Hi Alan,

Checking the videos of their live performances and data in "The Vox Book" seems to indicate that at least two different AC15 models were used in 1959-60 and the original AC30's (probably the prototypes with TV fronts) were used from late 1959-1960. The AC30/4 with the modern front then appeared in 1960, the AC30/6 in late 1960-61. The AC30/6 "Treble" (some times called "top boost", but not to be confused with the later Top Boost variation that used additional circuitry) came out in 1961-62 and the Top Boost as an add-on in 1961 and then as an integral part of the chassis in 1964.

This is consistent with Justin's post and also yours, with the possible exception that The Vox Book claims that Apache was recorded with the AC30/4 and so that variant was in use in 1960, not 1961 as in your list. As you say, there were almost certainly periods of overlap where different models were used to suit the occasion.

Looking forward to your comments on Hank's and Bruce's guitars!

Paul.

[garyallen]

mesa boogie mk2c in the 80s-Hank and Bruce...In the 90s Hank had Matchless DC30s and Matchless clubman35 Heads i believe were used on Marvin at the Movies album...hope this helps.....

[jgrimshaw01]

I have nothing to add to this thread but I have found it very interesting just put this message up to show that I appreciate what you guys are doing

Regards John

[kipper]

same as john great thread. peter

[Len]

I am new to the group. I am finding this discussion really intriguing. Naturally, like many, I am interested in how the Shads obtained ‘that sound’. I have recently become interested in what amps the Shadows used as details are somewhat sketchy, particularly in regard to when Hank switched the type of amp he was using. Apart from the Vox AC-30, I have no idea what other amps Bruce used. I have read the discussions in this section and am rather confused also about what Hank used following the Vox period up until the KCP. Here is the little information that I have been able to pick up.

According to details provided under ‘Artists’ on the Matchless website (http://www.matchlessamplifiers.com/artists.shtml), Hank used a Matchless ‘Chieftain’ at one stage. This may not be correct of course, as I would think that many companies could legitimately claim this based on a one-time purchase or something said in an interview and without it representing what Hank actually used on a regular basis. Hank may perhaps have used a Chieftain after the discontinuance of the ‘D’ series. I don’t know at all really. Charlie or someone “in the know” on this website may have a better idea about this. Perhaps Hank may have used a DC-30 earlier. He probably tried quite a few amps before the KCP. In another article (www.guyguitars.com/eng/interviews/HankMarvin.html) Hank discusses the switch from Matchless to the KCP. This was probably a few years ago, in the late 90s I would think. The interview with Paul Guy was in 2002 so it had to be before that. Hank certainly used the KCP in the Final Tour of 2004 as anyone who has the DVD or was actually there can see.

I would be most interested in any responses to this discussion or further enlightenments on same.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
I think Mesa Boogie MkIIC's were used by Hank and Bruce from around the early 80's. Then Matchless DC30 for live and Clubman separate head and cab for recording, not sure when Hank started using these. I don't know whether the Chieftain was ever used. If I remember correctly Hank used KCP from around 2001 up to around the 2004 tour. I think Bruce used AC30's for both tours. Hank used Pinnacle for part of the second final tour but there were problems with the design which caused overheating (these were later modified after the tour to correct the problems) so I think Matchless heads were then used with the Pinnacle speakers. I am not sure what he will use next. All the KCP amps were on loan and then eventually sold as it was thought they would no longer be needed after Hank did his final solo tour.
Regards,
Charlie

[fenderplucker]

Hi,

Hank still has his last two Vox AC30/6 TB's (dating from around the early-mid 1970's I would guess) as well as the black Matchless DC30 head/box and red Matchless Clubman 35 head/box. As one would expect he also has a number of other amps.

I have done a bit of work on some of these from time to time to keep them in good working order.

Paul.

[peterbower]

Hi all
I'm new to this site so this is my first post. Just a bit of useless info. Hank told me years ago that on a few occasions when they were at Abbey Road studios, he plugged in to the house amp which was a Fender Twin for a few recordings. He never could remember what tracks were recorded with the Fender, but i remember him saying that he liked it. Jet also told me that Hank liked the Twin.

Peter

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Peter,
Welcome to the site.
I have heard a similar story too.
If this was from the early 60's it might have been a blonde Twin or even an earlier Tweed one. Blackface Twin Reverbs came out around 1964.
Regards,
Charlie

[Deleted]

Hi,

I've just picked up on this thread as I was checking out dates when various amplifiers came into production and use. I'm probably repeating what is already known, so please forgive me if that is the case, but in my research I came upon the following information which is relevant when trying to pin down The Shadows first use of the AC30.

It seems the reports are that The Shadows were using the Vox AC30 during its development stage - much earlier than when is was officially launched. I am inclined to agree with Paul's comment about the revision to the Alan's dates about the use of the AC30.

I don't know where it originates, but the person who typed in the article to which I refer suggests it came from Guitarist Magazine in 1995, and the information is quite interesting .. the article can be seen at :

www.pcpki.com/queen/articles/ac30.html

It certainly suggests that The Shadows were using AC30's in 1960, possibly even late 1959.

In addition Vox's own website (in their history section) makes the following reference under 1960 ..

"The Shadows reach number one with their first instrumental, Apache. With the sound of the AC30 clearly noticeable, Vox's name was soon to become known as the best of British amplifiers"

Many people commonly credit the sound of Apache to the AC15, but whilst I appreciate that there strong similarities between the AC15 and early AC30, I suggest that the weight of documentary evidence seems to favour the AC30.

Cheers,

Ian

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ian,
Since it is known that the AC30 was designed at the request of Hank and The Shadows, and the first AC30 was the AC30/4 which had the same preamp as the AC15 at the time (with the EF86 channel and brilliance switch), it would sound much the same as the AC15, only louder, and the AC30/4 was logically the first version used by The Shadows. The later AC30s were very different. As far as I know, the AC30 (and AC15) Heritage is the first later Vox amp preamp design to bring back the EF86 sound of the early models and to also include the top boost channel.
Regards,
Charlie

[peterbower]

Hi Charlie
From what i remember Dick Denny saying, Hank had told Dick that the AC-15's were not loud enough any more at the bigger gigs and he was considering using a Fender twin, Dick said, hold your horses, i will make you an amp as loud as the Fender.
Dick made the original AC-30's for Hank and Bruce by joining up 2 AC-15's in one cab. I know this is an over simplification of events but that is basically how the 30 came into being.
The rest is history.

Peter

[didier]

The very first AC30 used a pair of EL34 and had a single speaker. It was very short lived, and quickly replaced by two pairs of EL84 and two speakers.
Not sure the Shadows ever used the EL34 version.
The single speaker's power handling capacity might not have been enough to cope with the ouput of EL34s...

Didier

[abstamaria]

JD (Fenderplucker) said "I think this the period when the Bass version of the amp began to be produced. Up till this point the bassist had always used identical amps to the two guitarists. "

So for the early hits (Apache on), the Shadows used an AC15 or AC30 for bass? And for Savage also?

A special Vox bass amp was introduced in 1961? What was this called, and was it commercially sold? This was not the Vox Foundation amp, yes, as that seems to have been introduced later (in the Beatlkes era)?

Very interesting, informative, and authoritative thread! Thank you all.

Andy
Manila

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Andy,
The AC30 bass amp that I know of had uprated 20 watt Celestion speakers and slight adjustments to the circuit for reproducing a better bass response. I don't know if the first bass versions were the same, probably they were, or very similar. I have heard of Hank using an AC30 bass amp at a live show but do not know this as a fact. I have been told that Jet Harris used an AC30 bass amp with 2 X 15" speakers. I do not think these were produced for others.
I think the AC50 with Foundation cabinet (containing 1 X 18" speaker, the one I have seen had a Goodmans speaker) must have arrived a little later, as you say but maybe it was a bit earlier than 1964. There was also a guitar cabinet to go with the AC50, it had 2 X 12" speakers and a Goodmans Midax horn for added treble. When the AC100 came out the cabinet that went with it for guitar use was known as the Beatle cabinet and it had 4 X 12" speakers and 2 X Midax horns. I am not sure I remember exactly what Vox supplied as speakers to be used for bass with the AC100, possibly two Foundation cabinets.
Regards,
Charlie

[abstamaria]

Thank you, Charlie. As usual, your comments are very informative and detailed. I didn't know all that.

Andy

[abstamaria]

We used the information provided here to answer a query on our band Facebook site

www.facebook.com/pages/The-Madeleine-Cookie-Company/114431597128

We are trying to generate some interest in old (or reissue) instruments and amplifiers and show, in a general way, that there is a difference in sound. There is some trivia on Hofner bass guitar straps! Hopefully, there will be some interest!

Thank you again for the information.

Andy

[malcolmv]

I remember talking to Dick Denny and Tom Jennings when I went to collect my AC30 (1961 or 1962) Tom told me that the AC30 became a twin after someone complained that the label on the back of the speaker stated 25 Watts "So how come you are advertising it as an AC30?"

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Malcolm,
An interesting story, and it's little details like that which help to piece together the history.
Regards,
Charlie

[malcolmv]

Hi Charlie, I think that was a true transcript of what was said. I was young and so in awe of everything that was going on in music at that time. I still remember everything about the trip from Lincolnshire to Dartford.

I have posted a question on the technical forum regarding EFTP. regards, Malcolm

[wattybluesman]

Hanks Amps..
In the early 60's I played in a band playing Shadows instrumentals and I used the same set-up as Hank in the famous picture with Princess Margaret sitting at the side on stage Hank is using a Watkins Monitor 2x12 amp a great sounding amp at the time.
The question .Did Hank use this amp a lot?

[fenderplucker]

Hi wattybluesman,

Hank probably used the Vox that can be seen behind him if you view the full video of the Princess Anne concert:

www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=42067

(check out the stills too, they are very clear).

The Watkins amp that was also on stage probably belonged to another band playing on the day.

Paul.

[alanmckillop]

Whilst trawling through my collection to help Paul Rossiter identify the echo units and amps as used by The Shadows (most of which I'll let him update on the TVS site), I came accross the sheet music for Quatermassters Stores which has a picture on the front claiming to be from that recording session. We know that QS was recorded on the same date as Apache, we also know that Bruce played Cliff's J200 on Apache, but played his electric on QS (as per the pic), but did Cliff actually play on QS as per the pic? Bruce seems to think not as you can't hear an acoustic on the record, but did confirm the photo was genuine.

I've said for a long time that I believed that Apache was recorded using an AC15 and despite everything that was said to the contrary, this surely must be conclusive evidence.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Alan,
I guess we need to try to establish when the first AC30s hit the stores or find the earliest known purchase date, possibly from someone here who remembers buying one. It would be fairly certain that the Shadows would have used the first ones as it was designed at their request and then hit the stores probably very soon after. The circuit diagram 0A/032 (unclear so not exactly sure if this is the correct drawing reference) of the AC34 four input model with EF86 is dated 23rd or 25th (unclear) April 1960. There is no telling whether the diagram was drawn earlier or later than when the first ones were made though. The really strange thing is though that the AC30/36 six input model circuit drawing 05 (or 0S)/065 has the same date! The fact the same date was used for both is confusing because the later model diagram could have been derived from the earlier one, or the later model drawing used the same date as the earlier one even though it could have been drawn later than that date, or the earlier model drawing was not drawn until the time the 6 input model came out.
We do know that Vox dropped the EF86 version because they were having problems with the EF86 even then.
Finally, the fact that Cliff was present obviously does not prove that it was the Apache session.
Regards,
Charlie

[fenderplucker]

Hello Alan,

That is a great piece of evidence and for me, at least, finally settles the discussion on what amp was used to record Apache. Surely it would now be quite fanciful to suggest that it was recorded using anything other than the two tone AC15.

I'll include it on the Shadows Amplifiers article on the TVS site when it is updated shortly.

Best Regards,

paul.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Paul,
To me it proves nothing more than that The Shadows used one or perhaps more AC15 amps while Cliff was in the studio. It could have been any of Cliff's earlier recording sessions. I don't see an echo unit in the pic either and we do know that one was used on both Apache and Quatermasster's Stores and probably ever since.
Also as a side note, Cliff is sitting right behind one of the amps, surely not an ideal place to record an acoustic guitar! More likely he was rehearsing with the others before making an actual recording, or he was just playing it for fun.
Regards,
Charlie

[alanmckillop]

I take the point that it doesn't prove anything one way or another, however, we either accept what it says on the sheet music (that the picture was taken during the QS session) or not. If we don't accept it (then someone is telling porkies with nothing to gain imho), then there is nothing further to be gained other than more speculation.

If we accept that it is from that session, there a few things which back up that theory. 1st We know Cliff was in the studio that day, because he played the chinese drums on Apache. 2nd The Gibson J-200 is also there and we know that Bruce used that on Apache. 3rd If you listen to QS, you'll hear that Bruce played an electric guitar, which he is seen playing in the pic, and 4th We know that the two tunes were recorded during the same session. So to my way of thinking, there appears to be enough circumstantial evidence pointing towards it being genuine, certainly more for than against.

The issue of Cliff being present is probably nothing more than him having been included in the photograph, as he was at the session. I also don't think that it was an actual take for QS, due to Norrie's presence (he would most likely be in the control room), also the back lighting which is evident, seems to suggest that it was a proper photo shoot.

Anyway, I'm satified with what I've discovered having gone through a mountain of pics/video/dvd and until someone comes up with anything better, I rest my case m'lud.

[Deleted]

GOODONYA- ALLAN,A great piece of history on the shads there , the meazzi is probably in front of hank [easy twidling] & norrie is holding his ear & or a h/phone & we can see the time HA.HAAAR,...
CHEERS ALL ............barry..