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Post by BarryH on Apr 16, 2009 10:41:51 GMT
As well as many very active and busy players, we also get a fair number of newcomers here at Charlie's, and reading Martyn's post about not using an amp, I wondered what contributed the most to getting "THAT SOUND".
If a newcomer wanted to start getting near the sound we're all so desperately searching for, what should they do first? What is the main heart of the sound, is it the pickups or maybe the amp or even a combination of things?
I know for me it's a combination of a lot of things, good pickups, EFTP and a decent amp. Having said that, lately I've been experimenting with different Tonelabs and a Pod XT Pro to give the amp simulation and it does get very near to the sound coming from a quality amp.
What everyone's views?
Cheers
Barry
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 13:19:05 GMT
HI BARRY H & ALL ,,,,,,,,,,You are right on one thing & that is a ''COMBINATION'' of those item's you mentioned & of course the player must be on the ball as well & "BAZZA'' when you get all the anwer's ''for-god'sake'' let's know.HA.HAAR.. joking of course mate there is no ''ONE'' answer ,to it I don't think but ''HEY'' it's good fun trying isin't it ,I have achieved the sound ''I '' want to hear, with my previously mentioned gear in another thread , but that is using ''my-ears'' & maybe all ears are not the same?  .. I listened to a tune today played using a ''gemini 111'' in the mix & I am sure one of those unit's would contribute to ''that sound'' as well? ??.. I feel this topic will be ''ongoing'' & it's nice to hear the view's of all our member's as we learn every time we ''log-on'' to this fantastic ''SITE'', helping to get ''the-sound-''we''- want to hear,coming from our speaker's!!!!! ''GOOD-PICKIN-GUY"S & CHEERS .........TO ALL..........barry.. |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 16, 2009 13:19:18 GMT
Hi Barry,
In my case, I chased after a good sound, one that I would be happy with, for years. I bought my first Strat, a 64, in '66. It always sounded good acoustically, but never good through an amp. I had a 64 AC30 Treble amp with silver speakers at that time. I did a straight swap for another Strat, and it sounded better, but the neck twisted slightly and so I had to let it go as I didn't think it would be repairable. I then had a short scale Rickenbacker like John Lennon's, got some good sounds from it and probably the easiest guitar to play that I ever had because of the short scale. But then I decided I wanted another Strat and bought one that I kept for a very long time, thinking it was good, but eventually I experimented with different pickups in an effort to try to get closer to the sound I wanted. The best Strat I have ever had and still have now isn't a real Fender and it sounds good through just about any decent amp. It has thin cellulose finish and is probably the most untidy guitar I ever had (it was built to look like a relic), but it sounds wonderful. Even non musician followers of my band hear how much better it sounds than my other Strat which itself actually sounds better than any of the earlier Strats that I had. I am currently having it refretted and while I know it will be done well, I hope it still sounds as good afterwards.
So I think the guitar, and the right pickups for it, is the most important thing for the sound.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2009 3:43:34 GMT
HI CHARLIE & ALL,,, YES charlie I am sure you are right on that the guitar is no.1 , I still have my bought new way back in 1960 an ''aria-diamond'' a well made first jap-copy to come to sth/aust, & it also has a short scale but I have fitted all types of pick-ups to it but it just does'nt give the strat attack& sustain ,very obvious when I acquired a US std strat a few years ago ,a 2000 year model , but the better sounding strat is my revamped squier 20th annaversary ''bullett which I completly stripped of the poly coating & stained & cellulosed & fitted the recomended by you fat-fifties & a 10ozs trem-block,it is a rose wood neck & surprisingly is quite a bit lighter body than the us strat ?..but much much better sounding!!!!!!! I should bite the ''bullett & strip the US=STD & cellulose that? ? it a nice looking hardly played guitar & so far reluctant to do that but maybe I should? the thick poly coating's I am sure are not good for that sound? CHEERS an interesting thread you put ''barry h'' goodonya-mate.......................barry.. |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 17, 2009 5:27:15 GMT
Hi Barry,
What colour is your US Strat?
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by garystrat on Apr 17, 2009 9:05:38 GMT
Hi Barry
I would be interested in Charlies view, but I believe that taking all the equipment factors to one side, it is the style of playing that makes most difference. As I have said before, using exactly the same equipment, different people seem to get totally different results.
I experimented with a friend the other day on my Blackstar Artisan amp, and although he is a well seasoned player both he and I were amazed at he difference using a lighter weight plectrum made (very thin .46 nylon), which would indicate that what has been described to me as the "weight" of picking has a tremendous impact. This possibly comes down to the gauge of strings being used, but I suspect that a really experienced player just naturally adapts.
We also found that the tone was better if the guitar volume was turned down and the amp up to compensate, this seemed to make the guitar cleaner (creamier), but it may also have been the amp driving more efficiently. I think most players would agree that tone improves with volume, which of course is not practical in most domestic environments.
Guess there is just no substitute for talent and experience.
Gary
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 17, 2009 11:27:36 GMT
Hi Gary,
Your last sentence sums it up. For me, part of that experience has been by buying many different guitars and learning why different amps sound different. For many years, I used the same thin nylon pick, in fact I think I still have it, but my sound changed for the better when I started using Dunlop Tortex picks. For others the opposite could have applied. Turning the guitar volume down and the amp up can give a better sound if the guitar volume is turned down to around 6 or 7 or even less, this is for a typical Strat, it varies with different guitars, and also the amp's input impedance, take HH amps, the IC100 models had an input impedance of around 100K which is too low, and the sound when using those amps was better with the guitar volume lower, but this also varies depending on the guitar cable used. I believe that Hank Marvin has always played with the guitar volume control on 10 but I do know that many old school players did not.
Another thing I found was at a rehearsal when I didn't use an amp, I plugged into the input of a mixer which had an input impedance far too low for a guitar, but the sound I got was fine with the guitar volume on around 5. Picking attack varies the sound a lot. One of my favourite players, Clarence White, played very lightly and most of the time had the guitar volume turned down and the amp volume set very high, he got an incredible sound for lead playing when he turned the guitar volume up, particularly if he was using a smaller amp like a Fender Vibrolux blackface which can overdrive quite easily. For many years I wanted more powerful amps and was frustrated with the small sound I got from an AC30, now I find I get better sounds with smaller amps, but they sometimes need a bit of reinforcement from the PA.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2009 13:03:11 GMT
HI GARY & ALL ,I seem to like the dunlop ''tortex 46mm'' & or D' addario 46mm .picks ,they seem to'' mold'' [bend] to your finger grip after some time & stay that way ?? & seem to grip easily [not slip]..& as to the vol pot alway's full on ,as I do not play in public or gig's etc which requires altering vol at the guitar,& as you know it reduces treble ,which may at times be a good thing ,,On my project squier I have a dedicated tone cut centre off switch ,centre normal ,,,on ,on.& I have 2 carefully selected capacitor's [green-cap] to sink some treble at the selector switch ,I t still has the tone pot ,but the switch is positive,& my desired amount.x 2 selections.!! I had a 8 position rotary mini [16mm] diam switch one time fitted to my old aria but am unable to aquire that switch again as that to me is a good option ,& or a detented 250k pot would be good ,but again hard to obtain !!!The swichable caps act differently to the tone pot!!!!!!!... CHARLIE my us strat is red I think fiesta-red? I am not sure see pic below'  my stained project squier ,the pic looks much darker than it is???  my old 45yearold ''aria-diamond''  CHEERS TO ALL ...............barry.. |
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Post by BarryH on Apr 17, 2009 14:06:31 GMT
I recently started using the D'Andrea Pro Plecs from the US and I noticed how much easier it is to play quick notes like the gallop in Apache.
I find the thicker picks are more stable and do not bend and flex like the thin ones always seem to. When Hoadlies mentions the thin picks seem to mould to your finger, this is making them less flexible, more like the thicker picks. If you take a thin piece of plastic and bend it, it becomes far more rigid.
Cheers
Barry
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Post by garystrat on Apr 17, 2009 15:54:23 GMT
Hi Charlie
Thanks for the very helpful information, I am now trying a number of different picks and concentrating more on getting the "feel". In my local store I was told that Hank now uses a small jazz 111 pick. Have just been trying one out and it seems to work well, controlling my bad habit of having too much pick hanging down, it also seems to allow faster picking.
There does seem to be some black art in getting the right combination of settings, your experience of going straight into a mixer is interesting, as you know I have been experimenting on behalf of someone else with this. By the way the live performance through the theatre PA worked well, but still struggling to get it right for smaller venues?
Hi Barry
Its interesting to note that the thinner picks give a more hollow, treble sound that adds to the echo, but is thinner. The Jazz a richer, more mellow sound.
Gary
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 17, 2009 16:23:16 GMT
Hi Barry,
I have used the Tortex .60mm orange picks for many years.
It is difficult to tell whether your Strat is Fiesta Red or a deeper red from the pic. If anything, it looks more like the colour of the first Strat that Cliff bought for Hank, I am convinced that guitar was never Fiesta Red.
Hi Gary,
Hank used to use the Dunlop Jazz 111 pickups. He has since used George Dennis Sharp 1.30's for a long time, which are similar but larger.
The mixer I plugged into at the rehearsal must have had a jack mic input as well as or instead of an XLR, as I don't think I would have got enough gain with a line input.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by BarryH on Apr 17, 2009 16:58:12 GMT
Hi Gary, Hank used to use the Dunlop Jazz 111 pickups. He has since used George Dennis Sharp 1.30's for a long time, which are similar but larger. Regards, Charlie I managed to get a hold of 2 dozen of the Red George Dennis 1.30 Sharp picks and I'm glad I did. What seems to be the only supplier over here can't get the 1.30s. He said he's had a rush on them, must have been all the Hank fans. They certainly do give a brighter sound than the D'Andrea Pro Plecs. But I find those easier to use. Cheers Barry |
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Post by martyn on Apr 18, 2009 7:50:11 GMT
Not only the pick itself alters the tone for, as I'm sure everyone knows, a subtle difference can be heard moving the striking point just a finger thickness or so north or south of the neck pickup (for example). If you have small hands like me, then holding onto the trem with my fourth and fifth fingers, I naturally strike the string in roughly the one place whereas someone with a large hand may find the natural position is further towards the neck due to their longer fingers' reach.
You can still vary the striking point by intentionally stretching the fingers, gripping the pick differently or altering its angle, but I was experimenting last night and was quite taken with the subtle tonal variations achieved just by some minor positional adjustments.
I suffer a little from arthritis so to avoid my fingers cramping I tend to hold the pick in the most relaxed manner I can, whereas consciously stretching the fingers into a more claw-like state invites sudden twinges. This could be why I always seem to strike the strings in the same spot and maybe others are similarly afflicted and adopt a stance that suits them for the same reason. What a sad bunch of old and creaky jointed duffers some of us are . . . !
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Post by garystrat on Apr 18, 2009 9:29:12 GMT
Hi Charlie
Many thanks once more, that is very interesting as they seem to have some unique characteristics.
I have looked them up on their web site and they made from crystal nylon? and designed to give a super firm grip, extra positive, flex fee response, whilst maintaining a more gentle attack characteristic.
Would certainly like to try them, do you know of a source in the UK?
Hi Martyn
I take it that you are speaking for yourself?
Gary
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Post by martyn on Apr 18, 2009 10:46:04 GMT
Hi Martyn I take it that you are speaking for yourself? Gary But of course . . . ;D |
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Post by keithinalps on Apr 18, 2009 10:48:53 GMT
8-)try a 56 NOS AC30 Q2 EFTP and a Gemini 3
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Post by BarryH on Apr 18, 2009 11:33:38 GMT
8-)try a 56 NOS AC30 Q2 EFTP and a Gemini 3 Keith, you can only make statements like that with a sound file to back them up ;D Cheers Barry |
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Post by garyallen on Apr 18, 2009 19:55:46 GMT
Hi Folks..Im just wondering what THAT SOUND actually is ?. Is it apache....Peace Pipe......Golden Street....The list is endless....I think THAT SOUND is your favourite shads tune...and for some strange reason its often copied but never matched....my twopence worth,,,,,,gary
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Post by BarryH on Apr 18, 2009 21:20:07 GMT
Hi Gary,
I think when most players refer to THAT SOUND they're thinking of the early stuff. It definately is for me anyway. Can't say as I enjoy Hank's later sound as much.
Cheers
Barry
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 19, 2009 15:44:53 GMT
Things varied all the time, very few early tracks have exactly the same sound. I assume the only constant was Hank himself, setting the equipment used at any particular time to suit him, which is what we all try to do.
Gary, apparently they are hard to find in the UK, I don't know a source, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by graeme on Apr 20, 2009 0:45:12 GMT
As someone who plays the odd Shadows tune to audiences who are not Shadows 'anoraks', I think the two main things are the echo and a vibrato unit.
Using Charlie's patches (in an RFX2000) I have played stuff with a Strat, Fernandes, Harper, Casio and a custom Tele (with Bigsby fitted) - generally through an H&K Matrix combo amp - so it's hardly the 'right' gear combination.
On every occasion, members of the audience have said just how much it was like they remembered it - although I and many here would not agree with that statement - but it goes to show how non-musicians, or Shadows aficionados, tend to hear things.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 20, 2009 13:01:41 GMT
Hi Graeme,
I think what you have said shows that you don't necessarily need the same gear to get someone's sound. I have seen all kinds of gear in the time I have been playing, and often been surprised at how good certain combinations have sounded, which, before hearing them, looked as though they wouldn't sound good.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by garystrat on Apr 22, 2009 8:45:36 GMT
Hi Charlie Just to let you know I found a source of the George Dennis Red Sharp Picks, they don't have any in stock at the moment, but will be getting them in a few weeks time. www.guitarandampshop.co.uk/acatalog/George_Dennis_Plectrums.htmlI spoke to them and they are happy to take enquiries at the above web site from anyone interested. Gary |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 22, 2009 11:36:07 GMT
Hi Gary,
Well done for finding them. When you say they will take enquiries from my site, I'm not sure what is meant by that.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by garystrat on Apr 22, 2009 15:37:55 GMT
Hi Charlie
Sorry for the confusion, I meant that they said they were happy for me to post their web address up on your site for any members that may be interested.
Hope this OK with you?
Many thanks.
Gary
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 22, 2009 15:55:57 GMT
Hi Gary,
I understand now, that would be fine. If you want to put it in the For Sale etc. section, I can make it a sticky.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by garystrat on Apr 22, 2009 17:47:56 GMT
Thanks Charlie
Have now posted it there.
Gary
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 22, 2009 18:05:08 GMT
Hi Gary,
I have made it a sticky so it will always be near the top.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by peterbower on May 15, 2009 18:16:37 GMT
Short of transplanting Hank's fingers and brain over to your body i suspect that you won't get that near. Having said that, its the overall tone and ambience that some players have got pretty close to and i admire their hard work in that achievement.
Using a Vox AC-30 or any other valve amp for that matter is no guarantee that you will get 'that sound'. Using various echo units is again no guarantee. This same ethos applies to pickups, strings and anything else you wish to throw into the formula.
I've heard some tranny amps sound more convincing that some so called Shads sounding valve amps.
Every now again some one gets pretty close and its probably more by luck than judgement or many years of painful and expensive experiment.
I think its a holy grail that will never ever be 100% achievable, may be 80% at best.
Ronnie Gustafsson [sorry about the spelling] of the '1961' band to my mind has a sound that is pretty good. Its a sound that in my view is where the Shads could have moved on to.
If i had a choice of sounds between '1961' and the Shads, 1961 leads by a short head.
Peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on May 15, 2009 19:43:38 GMT
Hi Peter,
If Hank had used a Vox Long Tom echo it could have been that way. I wonder why he never used one.
Regards,
Charlie
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