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Post by Fender Bender on Jun 15, 2009 6:30:38 GMT
Hi All
What do you guys use when recording apart from miking up the old vox ? Will the Tonelab do the trick ? From my understanding it seems that the Vox AC 15 & AC 30 amp simulations are very good but on the other hand I hear that the tonelab don't produce a decent clean tone.
So I was wondering what other stuff is out there that will get you close to "the sound".It make sense to say that the best way is the old way of miking up,but sometimes recording late at night can become a problem as we all know.
Regards
Louis, alias " Fender Bender "
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 7:49:41 GMT
HI louis have look at the ''gerabriel'' thred in the sound-file section & have a listen to some of his recording's ,,,as he uses a RFX2200 & a ''TONE_LAB''-desktop model ,the sound he gets is very very good!!!
CHEERS barry..
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Post by 93strat on Jun 15, 2009 9:19:06 GMT
Hi Fenderbender. I have a Tonelab also and the sound I get is very good as hoadlies and gabriele know..if you are a member of the perth site I have 2 soundfiles on there just using the TLab straight to mixer have a listen and judge for yourself but I find them to be very clean..
Sleepwalk and wonderfulland {My first soundfile} under 93strat... Cheers Alex
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Post by shadfan4 on Jun 15, 2009 10:02:38 GMT
Hi FB,
I use a POD XT PRO almost without exception for my recordings here & on SMCP and find it a far better alternative to annoying everyone at home & the neighbors.
But. It's not the only thing to achieving "That sound" apart from the required Strat with whatever Pup's you use I have Kinmans on my USA76 strat and 57/62's on the classic player. You can get quite close with some quite painstaking time spent tweaking the EQ post record. If you troll through the site you will see many references to HPF LPF 400hz cut's 1khz boost etc and so many other variables there isn't room to list them all.
Good luck and keep at it and it will all come good soon.
Cheers
Mike.
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Post by asimmd on Jun 15, 2009 13:27:22 GMT
Well I don't know who would say that the Vox Tonelab dosen't produce good clean sounds,they obviously haven't got or heard one.
I have used a Tonelab since they came out, and the sound is only bettered by miking up an old AC30,which I can't do due to neighbours.
There will be others along very soon to extol the Tonelab virtues,until then don't believe everything others tell you,have listen for yourself.
Alan
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Post by BarryH on Jun 15, 2009 13:52:00 GMT
Well I don't know who would say that the Vox Tonelab dosen't produce good clean sounds,they obviously haven't got or heard one. I have used a Tonelab since they came out, and the sound is only bettered by miking up an old AC30,which I can't do due to neighbours. Alan Hi Alan, I recently made the swop from a Tonelab LE to the Pod XT Pro. Selling the Tonelab in the process. After I'd had the Pro a few weeks, I started looking for another Tonelab which I eventually got. I'm at the stage now where I "believe" I'm getting a better sound out of the Pro but that probably down to my programming of the Tonelab. I also read on another forum that HBM is reputed to be using an XT Pro in the studio. I fully agree about the virtues of the amp simulation though. I get a lot less hassle when I do not go through an amp. Nothing better than being able to practice later at night without upsetting anyone. Cheers Barry
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Post by Fender Bender on Jun 15, 2009 17:22:39 GMT
Hi All
Thanks for your response guys,I have 3 USA strats and have Kinmans in all of them.The fiesta red and maple neck I have the "Marvins", my other fiesta strat with a rosewood fingerboard I have the traditional Mark II,which sounds very close to the old sound when the pups height is correctly adjusted and finally on my white strat with maple neck I settled for the "Woodstock Plus" which also sound very good.All 3 strats sound a bit different from each other which I like.
I will first give the Tonelab a try and will give feedback as soon as I get it.I will also have a look at the other threads about EQ.
Regards
Louis
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Post by foxy on Jun 15, 2009 22:24:43 GMT
Hi All Do any of you guys play through a PA system. Is it possible to get a good sound with a Magicstomp and then use amp simulation with a Tonelab or a Pod. It sounds like it is ok for recording but how about live are there any other factors to take in to consideration.
Cheers Paul
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 15, 2009 23:22:32 GMT
Hi Paul, If the PA system is good, then I think it would be the best way to use an amp simulator. You would still use the speaker simulator part of the amp sim. Regards, Charlie
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Post by asimmd on Jun 16, 2009 7:59:00 GMT
Hi Louis
Without wanting to upset you,or anyone else reading this,you may like to look at the pick-ups you are using and ask yourself if you really have the best you could get?
I used Kinmans for a while but they seemed to lack bite and clarity until after a while I swopped for a set of Fender 57/62's.
I also have a set of Bareknuckle Apache's in one of my Strats,and to my mind they are superb.
I am not going to say these are better than yours,simply because the sound anyone is happy with is the sound in their head,if you can achieve that using Kinmans,fine.
I am becoming fascinated by the use of Pod gear,years ago when it first came out I thought it was terrible but I guess it must have got better as there are a lot of people recommending it.
It would be good if someone who has both the Pod and the Tonelab could post an A/B comparison.That would be interesting.
Alan
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Post by Len on Jun 16, 2009 10:51:05 GMT
Hi All
Regarding Amp Simulations in General:
I use my Roland/Boss GT-3 both at home and in live situations. I can get some very good simulations out of it, including a Vox AC-30 sound. It distorts at high preamp settings though. I usually try to keep the preamp settings quite low and compensate for this by raising the Master setting. The balance between the amplified sound on my norrnal amp and the preamp of the GT-3 can also be varied to get the amount of distortion you want. The volume pots on the guitar also obviously come into play too. Vox AC-30s are nowhere near as clean as a Fender twin, for example. That is why I believe Hank Marvin preferred the Vox amps to the Fenders in the first place. I have seen several interviews where he has said that he preferred their raw quality even though they eventually proved to be unreliable for the road (at that time anyway).
The only area where Roland/Boss simulations can break down is where high gain preamps such as Soldanos and Metal types where they can have what they call "digital aliasing". This is where the harmonics produced give unpleasant results due to inherent problems with inadequate sampling. However, if you don't use much distortion or play at low levels and stick to Marshall type sounds, then this is not a problem.
What I am saying here is that since we can't all own or carry around fourteen different amps, we can use simulations that are close to the real thing (some professionals cannot tell the difference) and keep the neighbours happy at the same time. I don't like the pickup simulations with the GT-3, though but would use them if I didn't have dual coil pickups. I would like to see the results of an A/B comparison, if that were possible, between Tonelabs and other various other pods. I suspect they would all have their relative strengths and weaknesses for whatever sound you are trying to create.
Pods are very versatile though as you can put them through a PA, play at home with headphones or put the sounds through your amp, change amp preamp types and use different effects. For those trying to produce Shadows sounds however, you can't get those tapped delays without going to a lot of trouble. Alan is right, I think, in that pickups you use may well be important. Also, the type of guitar, amplifier and anything placed in the signal chain all impact on the sound produced whether though a pod or direct to the amp.
I don't know how this answers the original tonelab question but it may give someone else's perspective. I hope it may help someone with the amp simulation issue.
Regards Len
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Post by BarryH on Jun 16, 2009 11:01:36 GMT
For those trying to produce Shadows sounds however, you can't get those tapped delays without going to a lot of trouble. Regards Len Len, Most of the Tonelab or Pod users on the different forums only use them mainly for their amp simulation. The delays ETC still come from Q2s, MagicStomps or RFXs inserted in the FX loop of the unit. Cheers Barry
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Post by Len on Jun 16, 2009 11:34:23 GMT
Hi Barry
Yes, I appreciate that. That is why I said, "For those trying to produce Shadows sounds however, you can't get those tapped delays without going to a lot of trouble." I was acknowledging that a pod cannot do that.
I was actually responding to Louis' original statement where he says, "Vox AC 15 & AC 30 amp simulations are very good ... So I was wondering what other stuff is out there that will get you close to "the sound"." That is where my answer started. If I seemed to get off the track from that a little, I apologise. I just couldn't talk about a Tonelab because I don't own one.
I would put whichever one of those delay units you mentioned (or whichever one I happened to own at least) into the effects loop on the GT-3 for the "sound" and use the pod in the same way as others, for amp simulation (and as a tuner in noisy environments).
I was saying in respose to Louis that for me the GT-3 Vox preamp gets fairly close to the sound. This was to answer the above-quoted part of Louis' query. My other amps do not get a Vox sound. I actually find myself using very few effects from the pod anyway.
I hope this explains my original response to Louis' question.
Regards Len
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Post by asimmd on Jun 16, 2009 12:35:22 GMT
Well,no doubt Charlie will have a comment on this,but here goes.
I firmly believe that the "Shadows Sound" was manufactured in the studio.
Having said that,if you crank up the volume of an AC30,the speaker begins to break up,giving a Distorted sound,though not the same as a recognised distortion pedal.
If you overdrive the input of an Echo unit,you can get different sounds,if you combine the two,hey presto,Shadows?
I wonder if this has been tried by anyone brave enough to risk blowing the inputs on either Echo or AC 30?
If you overdrive any amp the guitar going through it will sound different than the same played at so called "Bedroom Volumes"
Tin Hat is on,let it rip.lol
Alan
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 16, 2009 16:13:39 GMT
Hi Alan, I think that the Shadows sound was primarily from the group themselves and the equipment they used, but almost certainly Abbey Road put the finishing touches to all the tracks with EQ, compression, reverb etc. To my mind, not every Shadows recording sounds as good as some others, this I think would be because the studio would only be prepared to process up to a point what they have recorded. I have never known a situation where overdriving a valve input would cause damage. The sounds we are interested in would not have come from any input being overdriven to the point of clipping (which is clearly audible to an experienced engineer and something would have been done about it if it occurred), however, increasing the signal at the input will put a valve into a more non linear portion of its operating range before clipping occurs. This would add more harmonics to the basic sound. Turning the volume up on an AC30 causes compression and soft very gradual clipping as well as speaker breakup. Regards, Charlie
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Post by foxy on Jun 17, 2009 22:25:07 GMT
Hi Charlie, I have a Yamaha Stagepas 300 quite a small PA with not a lot of EQ but it does produce an good sound for its size provided you don't drive it to hard. Have searched the reviews on the Tonelab and Pods and the Tonelab is rated for cleaner sounds Pods seem to be better for distortion so may be the Vox unit would be the one to use for the Shads sounds.
What would the difference be between putting the Magicstomp between the guitar and Tonelab or putting it in the effects loop of the unit or last between the unit and the PA, I guess impedance matching will have an effect in some of these options.
My original question about using Amp sim raised a few responses but is anyone actually using a PA for live gigs or do we all play through miked up amps, if anyone is could they give me an idea of their setup.
Thanks Guys Regards Paul
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 17, 2009 23:26:32 GMT
Hi Paul, The Magicstomp has high input impedance and low output impedance, so it is suitable for matching with any other equipment, however it was designed for guitar level signals so if the effects loop or the output from the Tonelab is appreciably higher, then the Magicstomp might cause clipping or not have enough output. Regards, Charlie
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Post by George Lewis on Jun 18, 2009 6:52:12 GMT
Hi Paul, I use a PA and sim for live gigs. Either when playing with Tony Kiek (Keyboards & 16 piece orchestra ;D ) or if solo then with backing tracks. Setup is guitar to vol pedal then to Magicstomp (EFTP of course but sometimes modified to reduce the echo level) then Zoom G2 for amp sims usually a Roland or Fender Clean, sometimes the AC30 but really I prefer the sound of the other two. Then into a PA which might be my Behringer PMP1280S, Tony's Phonic or a house PA. When using BT's they are played from an Apple Ipod nano with remote control also through the PA and and sound fine. I am not specifically trying to get "that sound" as we play a mix of old but mostly the more modern Shads and HBM stuff, but if this was your intention I am sure it could be used to come very close - assuming of course you can also play like a 19 yr old HBM ;D ;D . I also have a Pocket Pod which is supposedly similar in sound to the bigger PODs. It certainly has a wide range of sims and effects including quite a good AC15 but I keep coming back to the Zoom because of it's robustness (if you trip over it you will only hurt yourself !) and relative simplicity when live. For recording I use the monitor output on the Behringer PA straight into the sound card, although I am planning to try the USB output from the Zoom. Regards George
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Post by Fender Bender on Jun 18, 2009 9:33:04 GMT
Hi All
Once again plenty of advise from all of you,thanks.I'm also in a situation that I don't only play Shads material when gigging live.I must cover a wide range of sounds and styles when playing with my gigging outfit playing for functions etc.We cover about 2- 3 shads tunes.
The only time that I play just Shads tunes or other related instrumentals is when I perform at our Shadows Club in Milnerton,Cape Town at a very nice cosy pub&restaurant called "Just Wine", apart from playing at home.
I do use a Boss GT 8 for effects, pre amps & EQ purposes when playing normal paying gigs covering a huge spectrum of music.I then use my Fender Twin and mike up using my shure sm57.When playing only Shads or HM tunes, I still use the GT8 with no amp sims and only use the EQ,Comp and Delays + Reverb using my Vox AC 30 playing through the normal channel and mike up.
So thanks guys,I think that I will stick with what I have pick ups and all and will just add Charlie's great EFTP and the Gemini III as this will solve my problem for me at the moment.
Regards
Louis
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Post by noelford on Jun 18, 2009 10:55:00 GMT
I use a Pod XTL, usually modeling a Vox AC15, through my Atomic FRFR amp (basically a power amp which gives no tonal colouring) or through my Peavey PA. It's the best sound I have ever achieved.
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Post by BarryH on Jun 18, 2009 11:16:30 GMT
Noel, have you got a link to the Atomic you use, I went to Google but couldn't find a photo or description.
Cheers Barry
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2009 14:49:41 GMT
HI ALL ..although I am not in most of you fella's league as to playing live or at gig's etc ,I just play to myself at home ,BUT I have tried a lot of thing's & one of the best sound's I have achieved is through my ''desk-top-tone lab into a little behringer 1204 mixer using a reverb from the mixer patch 29 a very good delayed reverb [does not cloud the Q'2's echo] ,,& headphones ,, I find the AC15 amp sim & ac15 cab sim the best ,with the treble at near 10 & middle about 6-7 & bass about 3-4... Just today I had an idea to try my vp50 ashton valve head ,from the tone-lab to the return socket on the amp [there by dodging the preamp &tone controls of the amp] & I was pleasently surprised at the sound quite good .. ,but tomorrow night I will use a cab that has a 12'' speaker instead of the 15'' to see if it will tighten the sound as the 12'' is in a tight cab as well... the ashton amp is going to be modified back to earlier speck's as on it's own it is a full on modern type sound !!!,But just using the return only feed's the signal to the 12AX7 phase splitter via a master vol pot & then to the 2xEL34's ,,,Why I have not tried this before escapes me !!!! ,, but it is a very good sound... THE tone-lab is an exellent unit with a ton of control knob's for gain- vr gain - topcut- treble-middle-&bass & channel vol as well as amp-out&line out[the line out is the one I use to feed the mixer& or the return on the amp & it also has a level for the out as well ,I would highly recommend the Tone-lab!! ,Also a Q2 with 79-09 patch-set..,the m/stomp is a very good unit as well but needs some EQ differences & ,,,as ''george'' pointed out some reduction of the echo-level . which on the stomp is easy... Saying all that ''that sound'' is not easy [the very early stuff at least], the guitar needs to have the treble cut just right as well !!! Well I find it good fun as I only have to please myself ,I have been at it for 4 years now & nearing 70 it's not easy for me to play as good as I would like ,,having the sound is one thing & playing tunes all through without mistakes is quite another!... CHEERS TO ALL & I hope you all find the sound's you want.to hear as i have!!!...................barry..
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Post by noelford on Jun 18, 2009 17:33:59 GMT
Noel, have you got a link to the Atomic you use, I went to Google but couldn't find a photo or description. Cheers Barry Barry, here's the link to the website, just hit the 'Products' link. Mine is the 112/50, which I would highly recommend to anyone using a digital processor. It's a valve amp in a solid sealed cab and the sound is incredible, powerful with enormous depth. Totally the mutt's nuts, as they say. ATOMIC AMPSI bought mine from G66 in Germany, who very nice, friendly people (they later commissioned some cartoon work from me!) Cheers Noel
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Post by BarryH on Jun 18, 2009 21:22:26 GMT
Thanks for the link Noel.
Cheers Barry
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Post by Len on Jun 19, 2009 15:44:04 GMT
Hi Paul
You asked the question:
"...is anyone actually using a PA for live gigs or do we all play through miked up amps, if anyone is could they give me an idea of their setup."
This is not an easy question to answer in a few words though. My short answer is, "Not if I can help it." However, sometimes a soundperson (they are on a roster) at Church insist on DI-ing (using Direct Injection box) into the mixer.
For the PA setup, my guitar cable goes into the Roland/Boss GT-3 input. The signal goes from the mono output into the DI. A standard guitar cable line ('unbalanced' or 'High Z') goes from the DI to my amp which I use as a monitor (just loud enough for me to hear). We don't use the stereo output. The DI has a balanced XLR output which goes straight into the mixer via a "snake" multi-cord with other instruments and voices. They don't add any post-effects (reverb or delay, etc) -- just EQ before the mix goes to the PA.
With this setup, I set the Roland/Boss GT-3 to the "Line-out" utility setting. The GT-3 has a built in "Speaker Simulator" which is fairly basic but only operates when a GT-3 preamp is chosen and the GT-3 Utility set to "Line-out". I usually stick to the Vox AC-30 or Fender Twin preamps but sometimes use the Roland Jazz Chorus and Marshall amplifier simulators, the latter for a heavier sound, sometimes with distortion. The Speaker Simulator removes some of the excessive highs and lows so that the mixer is not overloaded after conversion to ‘microphone level’ from a ‘Line-out level’. The DI also converts from "unbalanced' to "balanced" which is what most mixers handle. You can also set the microphone position for the speaker sim (either Centre or at various distances from the speaker – you can set the distance).
I should explain here that all the instruments and voices are fed into the mixer via the mike inputs; fairly standard practice. The mixer is owned by the house and is a Mackie Onyx with either 24 or 32 channels (I think it is the 24 channel model from memory). That is the setup for going into the mixer on the rare occasions when I use it. I don't like that setup because there is always noise somewhere in the lines (probably from old DIs or hum pick up from all the surrounding cords and electrical equipment). We have never had the time to properly check the source of the hum as the hall and equipment are hired and most of the time is taken with a run through the songs for the morning and sound setup while chairs are being moved – very noisily. The built-in tuner on the GT-3 comes in handy here. The whole situation is not ideal as you can see.
This may sound a bit involved but it's quite simple really once you’ve done it once or twice. If I wasn’t using a pod the guitar cable would go straight into the DI. There is my preferred setup into the PA using an amp miked up which is slightly different as far as settings are concerned on the pod. I won’t go into that here. I answered that in part elsewhere I think. The rest of the setup would be essentially the same. I know there is a lot of detail here but I hope it answers the question adequately. If you have any further questions on this, by all means ask them. I will do my best to answer them or others might be able to chime in on more technical queries.
Regards Len
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Post by foxy on Jun 21, 2009 9:12:58 GMT
Hi Charlie, Len, Barry and all you other guys
Firstly, thanks for all the input this forum is really great so much info.
I will let you all know how I get on over the next few weeks, I have made a start already called in at my local guitar shop the other day and after having read reports on the squire classic vibe 50 guitars I tried one out and ended up leaving with one! They certainly sound the business.
At the moment, I have tried it with a Behringer echo pedal into a Jamvox for amp sim into my PA, and it sounds quite good Don't think it is anywhere near as good as a Magicstomp still looking for one of these. Any ideas where I can find one? I have missed 3 on e-bay already!
Hopefully, when I get things a little better I will try and post a couple of sound files once I have found a good recording piece of software, any recommendations?
Again, many thanks to you all. Regards Paul
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 21, 2009 16:09:55 GMT
Hi Paul, I have heard of a few cases where someone was able to get the last one that was in stock, but as it is a while now that the Magicstomp was discontinued I think there is little chance of finding a new one now. I guess you will have to be persistent looking on the well known auction site and other advertising mediums. Not sure what you mean by missing 3, did they go higher than you were prepared to pay? Regards, Charlie
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Post by foxy on Jun 21, 2009 21:10:28 GMT
HI Charlie, not really first went for around £140 not knowing what to bid I missed it by a fiver so the next one I bidded up to £150 it went for 160 so for 3rd I went 175 then to 180 and got pipped by auto bids at 185. So will have to keep trying but they sure are jumping up in price but I will get there in the end then I can buy the patches. Regards, Paul
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Post by john on Jun 21, 2009 21:23:05 GMT
Hi Paul Recently I purchased a Magicstomp off the well known auction site from the US for a friend of mine. The hassle is I find that now those that are selling, or most will not post overseas for some reason. So to get it here I had to get a mate in the US to buy it then post it on down here, a lot of mucking around. As they are discontinued, I find the prices are climbing up to what they were to buy new and above if you include freight charges. Watching the well known auction site some weeks are a drought for them and then 3 or 4 will pop up and if lucky one seller will send overseas. Just luck of the draw I guess. Regards John M
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 1:30:40 GMT
HI ALL ,,, thats a similar issue when I was looking to buy a Q2 from the US the well known auction site [as that seems the only place where there are any of them still for sale & that includes the magic/stomp also] ,,,BUT there are some Q2's for sale in the US at the moment? ?,you need to ask the seller if he is willing to send oversea's some time's they will ,what I have found is the alesis is no more money than the m/stomp ???which was not the case a while ago, the alesis quads were a premium price? ?,but the demand for the stomp has increased ,hence the high bidding!!!!!!! Just as a matter of interest the magic stomp price new here in ''OZ'' was $ 499.00 which translates to about 1/2 that in pounds UK,,, [with the now exchange with is better than it was when I bought a new one from the UK,, when I bought the exchange was 1 pound = 3 dollars OZ money which made it costly to buy from the UK ... THE us dollar against the OZ dollar is improving ,but I don't know about the US$ to UK pound ... HAVE you thought to ask ''SHEENDIG'S'' as he live's in canada & can buy from the US ,HE may have something available? CHEERS ..........barry..
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