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Post by Steve Reynolds on Apr 26, 2015 8:36:42 GMT
Hi All My band the Wannabe Shadows did a gig last night in Braintree and I was extremely honoured to have Charlie Hall turn up along with the long anticipated Hall and Collins Signature Echo machine. Charlie kindly allowed me to use the echo machine for the gig and to give my honest opinion. The sound of this machine really is magic, it is really user friendly, like the meazzis if you pick harder the harmonic response of the echos works with it. There is also drive on some of the echos to give a slightly grittier sound for the early shads period. The controls on the front panel work really well too, as I found with the Q2 etc the echos were great with some amps but not quite with others, they needed turning up or turning down depending on amp response. My rig was a Vox ac30, Caline 10 band eq and the Hall and Collins machine. Overall I am very impressed with it and am very much looking forward to receiving my unit and I would also like to thank Charlie for coming to the gig last night to see my band. Here are some photos of the unit and packaging that everyone will be getting.      The Wannabe Shadows with Charlie Hall   Our setup  |
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Apr 26, 2015 8:50:23 GMT
This is a clip of us performing Apache last night, it was filmed on a mobile phone so the quality isn't great but you can clearly here the echo on the muted section  |
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Post by rogerbayliss on Apr 26, 2015 9:31:18 GMT
Good to hear from you about this Steve and see the unit and packaging.
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colljaw
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The Controller
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Post by colljaw on Apr 26, 2015 9:47:35 GMT
Thanks for posting this Steve, and good on you Charlie for giving him the opportunity to try the new Hall & Collins Signature Echo pedal. Apache sounded great Steve!
Regards,
Jim
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Post by rosemary on Apr 26, 2015 11:06:51 GMT
Hi Steve and Charlie
Apache sounded fabulous even on a phone recording and it's great to hear Charlie's unit played live.
Best wishes
Rosemary
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Post by sheendigs on Apr 26, 2015 12:26:23 GMT
Hi Everyone
Nice echo and packaging and I was wondering how to get a sharper look
for the boxes and all..here is the trick.
When you click on the image, you will be taken to the site and you will see
at the right top..five icons.
Just click on the one that looks like magnifying glass with a plus sign inside and enjoy.!
Sheendigs
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Post by Cruachan on Apr 26, 2015 13:20:51 GMT
Hi Steve, Oh, you really are a teaser  This waiting is becoming almost unbearable! Really liked your lineup - very impressive. In fact I enjoyed browsing all your images at Photobucket. Also great to see Charlie again. The attractive packaging for the HCSE appears to be very well thought out. Looks like we should be considering making every effort to preserve it in its original condition as a mark of this historic and memorable occasion. Regards, Mike |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 26, 2015 17:08:49 GMT
Hi Steve,
Thanks for making this thread. Apart from hearing the Hall & Collins Signature Echo at a full gig for the first time (as one of the audience) I also enjoyed myself generally. I don't go to many gigs these days.
The pics turned out rather well, and the sound on Apache is pretty good for a phone!
It is nice to see the enthusustic comments here too!
Hi Mike,
Derek designed the box outer sleeve. I liked the first version he did as soon as I saw it. Little needed changing from that.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by localhero on Apr 27, 2015 11:38:39 GMT
Good to hear that Charlie heard it being tested live, though the phone video doesn't show it's true potential. Charlie's demo of 'Happy Birthday' sold it for me.
Looking forward to receiving mine later this week and what a great service Derek provides at Electromech. Congratulations to all involved in this project.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 27, 2015 18:37:48 GMT
Hi localhero,
I feel that Steve's version of Apache sounds more like Hank sounded when he was using EFTP. I thought it while I was there too. It sounded good, but not exactly like the original.
I am going to have a go at recording it myself as soon as I can and see what gives. I have a feeling it might have more to do with the basic dry sound than the echo, especially since just about everyone has trouble getting the original sound with Apache. One of the nearest I heard a while back was from DavidJM, he put gaffa tape or something similar on the bridge saddles to dampen the notes a bit and I thought it was very effective. I won't do that to begin with though, as it might be an attack and decay thing that I can get near with processing alone.
If I can get close enough I will tell everyone how I did it of course.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by sky1962 on Apr 27, 2015 18:43:00 GMT
Looks and sound very nice.
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Apr 27, 2015 18:56:24 GMT
Im convinced Flatwounds are what gave Apache that choked sound, on the experiments I have done and after talking to Colin Pryce Jones its definitely a possible. It is nice to listen to the early recordings again though, the modern ones are so clean and perfect, I mentioned to Charlie the other night about my Meazzi distorting sometimes but when I listen to the early records that's exactly how they were and I think we sometimes forget how raw they are.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 27, 2015 19:09:38 GMT
Hi Steve,
I have thought the same about flatwounds but it is also possible the strings were dead (ie. old) sounding round wounds.
I agree about Meazzis distorting but somehow I don't detect Hank's first Meazzi distorting so much as the later ones. I really don't know why that was so. We probably never will know since I don't believe anyone knows exactly which model that first one was. I am fairly sure it wasn't a model F as some like to think. One reason for that is that Dick Denney told me there was no circuit diagram for Hank's first Meazzi, but there is a diagram for the model F.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by localhero on Apr 27, 2015 20:00:02 GMT
I agree Charlie, it too reminded me of the EFTP sound on an Alesis. Your sound was totally different on Happy Birthday and I'm expecting much the same. What you mentioned about the 'core' sound from the amp - I believe that is a big part of it. As a matter of interest, Phil Kelly's Model 'J' sounds exquisite. |
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jay
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Post by jay on Apr 27, 2015 20:02:13 GMT
Hi Charlie..
"One of the nearest I heard a while back was from DavidJM, he put gaffa tape or something similar on the bridge saddles to dampen the notes a bit and I thought it was very effective."
Was this at a live show or is there a link to a sound file somewhere?
thanks,
Jay
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Apr 27, 2015 20:12:53 GMT
Colin from The Rapiers has cigarette paper on the top four strings just like Hank did in the early days, that would certainly make them dead when played open.
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Post by rogerbayliss on Apr 27, 2015 20:14:51 GMT
I think the action on the guitar for apache weas so low it choked the strings. They put the cigarette paper in the nut on two strings and I think the reason for that was they were setting the action as low as they could get it. The D string is often remarked upon as being notably dead. The low action would choke the strings and kill some of the sustain certainly on the lower strings in my view.
Also the 7.5 radius board will choke the D if you try going down lower more than the modern radiuses as it is on the top of the radius.
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Apr 27, 2015 20:17:07 GMT
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 27, 2015 20:26:19 GMT
Hi localhero,
For Happy Birthday I used the Wonderful Land patch with the Echo Drive set to maximum and the Echo Level set to about midway between 2 o' clock and 3 o' clock. The higher drive seems to make the echo sound more full but when you play it you'll probably hear other things too.
I heard Phil's model J YouTube clip the other day. It does sound very good, but I think the one Hank used sounds cleaner and possibly less interesting. Listen to Cliff's recording of "Now's The Time To Fall In Love" to hear what I mean.
Hi Jay,
DavidJM's Apache was a recording. I think he posted it on this site. I don't know if the link would still work though.
Hi Steve,
I didn't know Hank had paper under the top 4 strings. I thought it was only one of them!
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Viv on Apr 27, 2015 20:27:08 GMT
Hi localhero, I feel that Steve's version of Apache sounds more like Hank sounded when he was using EFTP. I thought it while I was there too. It sounded good, but not exactly like the original. I am going to have a go at recording it myself as soon as I can and see what gives. I have a feeling it might have more to do with the basic dry sound than the echo, especially since just about everyone has trouble getting the original sound with Apache. One of the nearest I heard a while back was from DavidJM, he put gaffa tape or something similar on the bridge saddles to dampen the notes a bit and I thought it was very effective. I won't do that to begin with though, as it might be an attack and decay thing that I can get near with processing alone. If I can get close enough I will tell everyone how I did it of course. Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie, Using my old Quad Plus and EFTP some time ago I got reasonable sound for Apache by lowering the bridge pickup about 4mm from the strings. Vox AC30 miked with the mike positioned about 2cm from the cloth cover and aimed midway between the cone and outer edge of the speaker. Bass and treble midway and tone cut one third using lower top boost. Volume about half way.
Cheers
Viv
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 27, 2015 20:29:53 GMT
Hi Viv,
I have to say I never tried lowering a pickup to see how the sound would change. I would imagine it would take some of the attack off but I could be wrong.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Apr 27, 2015 20:37:05 GMT
I added this comment on another site so I will add it here. The video clip is an iphone recording of a gig I did. The gig was in a large hall and I used a generic sound. I in know way tried to match the recorded sound of Apache, it is not possible to match all the shadows sounds when playing live, there isn't time to change eq, channels etc.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 27, 2015 21:52:55 GMT
Hi Steve,
Exactly. Hank is the same. One setting all night for every tune.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by localhero on Apr 27, 2015 21:58:14 GMT
That thing with the cig paper doesn't hold water for me as most of the notes in Apache are fingered, thus taking open strings out of the equation. I think that someone made a mess of the setup on that guitar and the paper was inserted to stop choking as it raised the string a little.
Also I did remember what you said about using the Wonderful Land patch but had forgotten about the gain which interests me a lot. I feel with the right EQ and good use of that gain, the mystery can be solved to achieve the 'timbre' that has been absent for so long. I would describe the sound as a kind of 'musical distress', without going into too much overdrive.
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Post by scanners on Apr 28, 2015 0:25:03 GMT
Now you've really wet my appetite for it Matthew |
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Post by grip on Apr 28, 2015 9:15:28 GMT
Colin from The Rapiers has cigarette paper on the top four strings just like Hank did in the early days, that would certainly make them dead when played open. We need more information.....were they rizla's, swans, or zig-zag?  And if Rizla, were they blue red or green? |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Apr 28, 2015 9:24:49 GMT
Sorry Chris,
Instead of making a new post I somehow managed to add my text to yours. I can only think I hit the edit button instead of the quote button by mistake.
Shall I remove it by editing again or leave it as it is?
Edit: I have to go out now and will be back tonight.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by grip on Apr 28, 2015 11:22:49 GMT
Sorry Chris, Instead of making a new post I somehow managed to add my text to yours. I can only think I hit the edit button instead of the quote button by mistake. Shall I remove it by editing again or leave it as it is? Edit: I have to go out now and will be back tonight. Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie, No problem,I thought I must have typed that to start with....confusion reigns with me at the moment, for those that read this, Charlie added the colour choice to my post. Kind regards, Chris |
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Post by lucky7 on Apr 28, 2015 12:10:52 GMT
Hi Steve, Regarding the cig paper, I used to do that to my Jazzmaster back in '65 . Reason was string buzz caused by the nut being cut too deep. the only way to replace lost material was to use the aluminium foil covered paper from cigs box packaging! Foil was not at hand but the cigs were! I can only think that someone at the Fender factory was a little over zealous with the nut files maybe. Also I might add, that it did not dull the strings if put in neatly, the picture shown is a little untidy, and it looks like the type of paper I described. The guitar I was told was the first Candyapple Red to be imported to England. Regards Ivan.
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Post by sandra on Apr 28, 2015 12:50:57 GMT
Colin from The Rapiers has cigarette paper on the top four strings just like Hank did in the early days, that would certainly make them dead when played open. We need more information.....were they rizla's, swans, or zig-zag? And if Rizla, were they blue red or green? You missed out the liquorice ones Chris, in case you wanted that MoTown or Reggae style of sound  |
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This waiting is becoming almost unbearable!
