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Post by metrostrum on Dec 25, 2015 17:14:16 GMT
Hi,
Can anyone tell me what pickups were in the original red strat ordered by Cliff in the late fifties and used for Apache etc? Were they Custom 54's or 57/62 pups? I am using 57/62s and wonder if earlier pups would give a more authentic tone. Many thanks
Mike
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 25, 2015 20:07:23 GMT
Hi Mike, The only Strat pickups available then were the stock ones made by Fender at the time, which did gradually evolve through the years until Fender decided to make several versions after all the other manufacturers like Dimarzio and Duncan were making several versions too. It is difficult to know which pickups made by Fender now are closest to what was made in 1959, which also varied anyway, probably more than the various versions made today. Maybe 57/62s are generally the most liked. Regards, Charlie
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Post by metrostrum on Dec 25, 2015 23:43:46 GMT
Hello Charlie,
Thanks for your valuable knowledge once again. I think I should stick with my 57/62s and just concentrate on becoming a better player!
Mike
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Post by patrice on Dec 26, 2015 10:35:15 GMT
Hi Mike,
I just want to add : At the time of the #34346 Cliif's Strat, there was only one type of pickup (and always the same) designed for the Strat. This pick up was built with: Six Alnico 5 staggered magnets A bobin « manual » wound with a 42 gauge copper wire, isolated « Formvar" and with around 8500 turns = a DC resistance around 6000 Ohms.
These electric characteristics were used between 1955 and 1962 (In 1954 the magnets were Alnico 3 not Alnico 5 and eight years later, with the beginning of the « L series » = end of 62, the 42 wire gauge passed from an isolation Formvar to Enamel. In the same time the winding passed from « manual » to 100% automatic.) So If you are looking for a set of three Strat pick ups « identical » or with the nearest characteristics than a 50’s Fender Strat pick up, you have to choose (as Charlie said in the forest of the 2015 possibilities !) the one which is built with: Six Alnico 5 staggered magnets A bobin wound with a 42 gauge wire, isolated « Formvar » If possible « hand wound » (Abigail for Fender did that recently ! otherwise…) With a number of turns of + or - 5% 8000 = a DC resistance of + or- 5% : 6000 Ohms. So: I think that, for Fender, the 50’s Fat Strat set is the nearest of the whole Start pick up sets re-issues of this company… The only difference of one of this 50’s Fat Strat pick up compare with an « original » 50’s pick up is its automatic winding (not manual). But the three pick up are built « identical » like in the 50's. Remark : In the 50’s and because the pick ups are « manual wound », each one is a little bit different (DC resistance different) from the other one (!) In addition when the pick guard was assembled with these "same" pick ups, the « luthier » took each of the them in a « box». So totally by chance ! Not by thinking put the most hot resistance in bridge position and the less one in front… So and now: If you take a look to the possible Fender re-issu sets (all of them wound automatically): For the 54’s Fender re-issu one (and if the magnets and the type of wire are "correct") the bridge pick up is obligatory «boosted » … Not essential for playing the Shadows…
Now and with a 57/62 set, this set is not really better due to its wire isolated Enamel and its winding done automatically… (All of them with the same numbers of turns) It’s the reason why I think that, for Fender, the 50’s Fat Start pick ups set is the nearest to « clone » the original 50’s Fender Start Pick ups, even if (like the others..) they are automatically wound.. In final, I also think that (for exemple) Fralin is able to propose the « same » 50's pick ups because and in addition of the same electric characteristics, Fralin pickups might be « hand wound »…
Best regards from France Patrice
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Post by metrostrum on Dec 26, 2015 20:46:34 GMT
Patrice,
Many thanks for the excellent information on early Fender pickups; fantastic technical knowledge. I had forgotten about the 50s Fat Strat pickups and think I will try a set of these to compare with the 57/62s. Thanks again for taking the time to write such an informative post.
Regards Michael
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Post by driftin on Dec 27, 2015 8:02:56 GMT
wow Patrice....................that's some interesting info you have given us and it is very appreciated
regards
les
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Post by bor64 on Dec 28, 2015 20:35:55 GMT
One importend detail is left out by Patrice....the pickups of the famouse 34346 are slightly diffrent then most of the other pickups build in all those strats at that time.... A small portion of the 59 production pickups have a very low G pole magnet(pushed thru the bottom bobin)....as low as the B and E string....kinda like the modern Kinmans.... Just by change 3 of those ended up in the 34346...
Cheers Rob
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Post by patrice on Jan 2, 2016 22:34:33 GMT
Hi Rob You are totally right when you speak about a shorter length of the G poles found on the three pick ups of the #34346. But, if the three G magnet/poles on this Strat are (really !) shorter, it’s not only because somebody pushed them down… with a hammer ! It’s because and compare with a "normal » length of a G pole (on a regular Strat pick up) the lengths of each one, on the #34346, are CUT shorter than as usual. In practice and more surely, it’s just six E first length magnets put in G position. It’s the reason why, if you can take a look on the bottom of these three pick ups, the whole magnets are "flat » and in the same plan… That means that the three Strat pickups of and fitted on the #34346 was « specially » built with a factory intention… For my own, and during the 20 years that I sold, in Paris, Vintage american Guitars, I only saw (on a little bit more than one hundred sold) ONE other (1955) maple neck Strat with this same pick up characteristic… It’s the reason why I really think that this (built) « curiosity » is pretty rare to see and to find on a 50’s Stratocaster. So, Rob and If you have a picture of an other 1959 maple neck Start equipped on its three pick ups with G magnets/poles shorter, I’m very interested to see it. Now the good double question is to know: Why the Fender factory sent to Cliff a Stratocaster fitted with these « particular » three pick ups ? Why Fender proposed as soon as (it seems) 1955 three Strat pick ups with a shorter length on the G poles ? First answer ? (But who knows ?!) May be because the Stratocaster (all options !) ordered by Cliff, was directly available « like that » (in March 1959) in the factory ? Keep in mind that Fender guitar with "all options » (Custom color + Gold hardware + this fantastic complexity piece of wood for its maple neck) is « rare" , compare to the whole Stratocaster production made during the 50’s. So and if this Strat was yet assembled with it’s terrific look ! may be Leo Fender thought that THIS Strat was perfect "like this" for a British singer ? And no doubt that the #34346 did ! And always does… In addition, don’t forget also that, for Fender, the first neck production with a « slab rosewood » fingerboard added on the maple, appears in May 59… Only two mouths later than the « official » order of Cliff. So: If the #34346 was directly available like Cliff asked and wanted why, for Fender, obligatory modified its pick guard assembly by changing its three « custom » pick ups by a three "regular" other ones ? But ?!!!... Second answer: We can imagine that if the G poles are shorter on these three pick ups it’s not only « pour faire joli » ! But and more surely (?!) for mounting, on the guitar, a set of strings with a G plain… Because, on a pick up, if the length of the magnet on the G string is shorter, the first idea it’s to compensate the lowest output level delivered by a G wound string compare with a G plain… If we remained James Burton, he put (in the late 50’s) on his Fender a « special » set of strings (doing by himself !) from an original 13-54 Fender set, by adding a banjo 0.10 string for the E first. So in final a string gauge = 10,13,17, 26, 36, 46, with the original B plain string gauge 0.17 becoming the G (plain) string… So it's always possible to think that some others american guitarists, who wanted, like James Burton, to equip their Strat with a custom set strings with a G plain, asked Fender to made these "special" Strat pick ups ?… But may be also that Leo Fender and/or Freddie Tavares or George Fullerton thought to this "custom" possibility before the guitarists ?!... I just want to add that for the "Shadows 50th anniversary» limited edition Stratocaster made by the custom Shop, the #34346 was cloned… it's the reason why, on this re-issu Strat, and if the three pick ups were specially hand wound by Abigail Ybarra (which was a very good idea ! Mike ) the shorter lengths of the G magnets / poles were respected too… But does it mean that, with this kind of pick ups, you have to put, a plain string for the G one ? Theoretically yes… But in practice ? Surely that Hank in 1960 did not ask him the question, because no body knew the reason why the G poles were shorter… or (simply) realized that these G poles were shorter than "normal" ! Best regards and Happy New Year ! Patrice
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Post by garyallen on Jan 3, 2016 22:10:24 GMT
Like most of us,I've tried all the fender pickups and yes some are warmer than others,hank first used the strat on cliffs 2nd album and sounds very similar to cs54s,same thing with Bruce using it for rythmn all these years,maybe the magic was in the meazzi and vox amps, Regards Gary
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Post by garyallen on Jan 3, 2016 22:17:09 GMT
Forgot to mention that fender base the 57/62 pickups off a 63 strat according to the information on the box they come in,yet they put them in 57 reissues for years...it's all very subjective stuff...
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Jan 4, 2016 15:26:42 GMT
the magic is in the vox, the meazzi, the guitar and Hanks Hands.
Abbey Road also had a big impact on it too.
Personally ive tried stacks of pickups and the CS54s are great but toneriders are very similiar as are ironstones etc. As long as you dont have something radical like lace sensors or kinmans then you will be in the ball park.
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Post by ha2he on Jan 4, 2016 18:19:13 GMT
Hi Charlie & Friends, A tremendous amount of information from Patrice.... thanks for that. Steve... Surely Kinman Impersonators are ok. for the early sounds. I think they are up to V5 now Regards, Tim.
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Post by bor64 on Jan 5, 2016 17:45:40 GMT
Patrice, It's not extremly rare,but also not common that some sets of 59's have that lowered pole on that position. On first sight it looks like the g stringpole is pushed down, but its not. They left the factory that way. Funny enough I handled that 34346 a few times,and the first two times I didn't see it .....the exitement I guess The g polepiece is of normal lenght,but stick out the bottom bobin.....on the 50th anniversary strat the pole piece is just shorter and flush with the bottom bobin. 58 stagger34346 stagger close up59 stagger top59 stagger bottomIn total I saw 3 '59 sets with this lower G pole....on the 34346 on a other 59 and as a sepperate set... Stupidly enough I didn't purchage that last set because at that time they where the first I saw and thought they were faulty..... As you stated they cloned the 343436..... but they toke the easy way out with the magnets because with the G pole sticking out of the bottom, bobin they couldn't put it easely on the winding machine so that's why they choose for the shorter magnet flushing bottom..... Cheers Rob
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Post by rogerbayliss on Jan 5, 2016 17:56:40 GMT
Hi Charlie & Friends, A tremendous amount of information from Patrice.... thanks for that. Steve... Surely Kinman Impersonators are ok. for the early sounds. I think they are up to V5 now Regards, Tim. I tried a guitar fitted with the impersonators (V2 I think) and the correct sounds were there.
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Pickups
Jan 5, 2016 18:08:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by Steve Reynolds on Jan 5, 2016 18:08:56 GMT
Sorry all I was referring to the kinmans fvhms set apologies
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Post by andyj47 on Jan 6, 2016 11:15:17 GMT
wow! some of you guys seem to have done a university degree in fender pickups!someone asked what pickups hank had in the original strat,well in1959 anybody who bought a fender strat and started to rip out the pickups to put some other type in would have been considered doolally! heres my take on this subject;if you take a strat any reasonable echo unit,any amp with a clean setting,and a guitarist who can play the tunes you will be well in the ballpark!your never going to sound exactly like hank because your not hank!an interesting experiment although probably impossible would be if we could borrow the strat from bruce and tryit through our own gear I would bet we would sound exactly the same as with our own guitars it wouldn't make us magically into hank,so I say enjoy what you've got! cheers andy maybe I should get my tin hat out!
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Post by mojolomjl on Jan 6, 2016 12:03:25 GMT
Hi Andy,
What a very refreshing way of looking at the pickup minefield.
Best regards,
Maurice.
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Post by bor64 on Jan 6, 2016 19:31:58 GMT
Andy,
I'm sure nobody in 1959 would think about it to rip out the Original pickups of a strat....because there were no replacments back then... Your right about only Hank can sound like Hank if he want to......But if I have to believe all the boys who were there at that time....CPJ sounds more like Hank then Hank.... I've played Apache from the first to the last note on that famouse 34346 (goosebumps all over) but with the lighter strings and no tremeloarm and not the right echo it soundend not that great..... The 50h anniversary shadow strat is close enough to sound like the original 34346 and will sounds more in the ballpark depending who handle it...
Cheers Rob
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Post by patrice on Jan 7, 2016 16:55:52 GMT
Hi Rob, Thank you very much for your pictures. No doubt, with these pictures, that on the #34346 the G poles are lower that normal. If you compare with the picture of the "standard" 58 Strat pick up, it's an evidence Now Rob, you posted also a picture of an 59 Strat pick up with a G pole shorter... The stagger top picture prouve it ! Right, but as I said, the main difference of this 59 Strat pick up compare with the 34346 ones, is that if you take now a look on its stagger bottom side, you can see that this G pole overpassed the other ones. And if it overpasses the other poles that mean that some body pushed down that pole (with a hammer !)... It's means that this G pole has originally the "standard" normal length (the same as the 58 standard pick up) Because: One more time in the case of the 34346 the pole is factory CUT shorter... And this pick up seen from the stagger bottom side you can see that the whole poles are "flat". It's the reason why, with the help of this trick, if you see an old Strat pickups with a shorter G pole, by taking a look on its bottom side, you have 99% of chance to say that this pole was pushed down with a hammer... In contrary, seeing an original Fender Strat pick ups fitted with a shorter (cut) G pole from the factory, for my own I saw that just only one time in my life, on a 1955... Two times with the #34346 ! It's the reason why this kind of Fender pickup is rare to find... But ! Yesterday morning I met my friend André Duchossoir and spoke with him about this "curiosity"... He was not able to confirm or invalidate that, and particulary in 1959, many (or only some ones... or only two ! the #34346 and the #33649 ) Strats (maple or rosewood fingerboard) were factory equipped with this kind of shorter G pole pick ups ? But André promised me to take a look in his documentation and to the whole of his Strat pictures, and then, he 'll tell me his conclusions... So: To be continued ! Best regards Patrice P-S : Pardon for my english mistakes...
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Post by bor64 on Jan 7, 2016 20:00:42 GMT
Hi Patrice,
Are you sure the bottom of the 34346 pickups are flush magnet wise?? Because a little bird told me otherwise....the g pole is sticking out of the bobin on the bottom...and they didn't copy this detail for the 50 anniversary shadow strat.
The owner of the 59 strat I saw with the g pole sticking trough the bottom, bought that guitar new in 59 so no hammer used!! The 59 pick-up on the picture with that g pole sticking through the bottom...wasn't tempered either because there isn't track of that and the wax is still original and the magnets are also unharmed....furthermore the windings of the all three pick-ups magnet are unharmed too and working... Hammering down a magnet will almost always break a coil winding especially on a vintage pick-up.....
Maybe Fender was experimenting with thinner strings and a plan G string at that time, who knows???
Fender didn't know at all the 34346 was designated for Cliff, because a third person ordered the strat for Cliff that's a fact..... there is a copy of the letter from Cliff to that person. Cliff ask him to order a red start with golden hardware a case and spare strings so.....Fender didn't have a clue back then.... Btw the 58 picture that's my original 58 strat...
Cheers Rob
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Post by philc on Jan 8, 2016 9:40:28 GMT
Some excellent information here from Patrice We are in a similar situation here as what paint was used and how/if it effected the tone! We can talk about the ins and out regarding the early pickups all day but let's not get carried away because we are on the borders of fantasy and almost mythology ... We can read more into all this than was really happening at that time. We are talking about a few guys standing by their benches fitting pickups, ok, it was noticed that some strings played quieter than others so the pickups were raised to compensate for this, hand winding was superseded by machine because it was easier and quicker. To get back to whether hand wound and the same staggered magnets as was on 34346 got you a closer sound regarding Apache to machine wound etc...I doubt it very much. As for 34346 being a special order and modified because it was Cliff that orderd it, as was mentioned in an earlier post, it was ordered via a third party and I assume just sent out as per order. It would be great to own a 50's re-issue but for tunes such as Apache, but Paul & Gary from TVS also a few other have proven that it is possible to get extremely close to that sound with modern guitars, what makes a difference is the playing technique, amp and echo unit. Here's a picture of my 63 Strat pickups, it's a very early 63 so could possible be looked at as a 62. Notice that the staggering is not the same on all three pickups. Phil
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Post by rogerbayliss on Jan 8, 2016 17:17:16 GMT
I thought I had read somewhere that Cliff's manager went to New York and Hanks's first strat was purchased in Manny's Store, New York and shipped across after purchase. It must have been a top model in it's day with gold hardware and birdseye maple neck. I have often wondered because of this maybe Fender did a overwound pickup for the bridge for better volume balance ?
The picture above with clearly differing pole heights is interesting.
Yes, a few people have got close with the Shadows sound and notably CS54's seem to do the right sounds, as do Fats 50's etc. The CS54's are the ones with a slightly overwound bridge PU.
I think you are correct saying the gear / setup and the player coupled with some studio skills is what gets you there though.
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Post by philc on Jan 9, 2016 8:17:43 GMT
Here's an interesting read about 34346, from Bruce regarding that order no doubt you've seen it before. www.shadowmania.co.uk/images/imagesrelatedarticles/famousredstrat.htmGoing slightly off the subject, Bruce mentions that he and Hank remembers the guitar was definately Flamingo Pink even though that colour was not in Fender's catalogue. A friend of mine owned a very early strat in the early 70's and I remember it to be a definate pink and nowhere near Fiesta Red. Phil
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Post by erikMAMS on Jan 9, 2016 9:48:36 GMT
The letter: Erik
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Post by silvervox on Jan 9, 2016 13:19:40 GMT
Hi I find this very interesting about pick ups I have just adjusted mine on my American 57 Reissue,the bridge pick up was to high thus getting a thin sound,i find that the muting is more full.Are the poles set different on most pick ups I presume mine are 57/62 vintage the serial number starts with V I bought it second hand quiet a few years ago. Regards Peter
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Post by bor64 on Jan 9, 2016 16:25:42 GMT
Although I pref to see a picture of Kate Upton draped on the sofa the same way... I find this pictures of these strat's not bad either But how the bleep do you get a picture directly shown in a reply like this?? Peter nothing wrong with the staggering on your pickups....see the58 picture of my original 58 strat to compare. Phil great picture I realy enjoy it! What is that thing on the right on your lower pick guard half?? Your right about these little deatils influence, I can match the recorded sound of Apache 100% at home, but when I recored it there is a small difference when we listen to it....very strange..... Cheers Rob
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Post by allclaphands on Jan 9, 2016 17:06:23 GMT
Although I pref to see a picture of Kate Upton draped on the sofa the same way... I find this pictures of these strat's not bad either Here is the picture you say you prefer of Kate Upton on the sofa
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Post by silvervox on Jan 9, 2016 17:26:42 GMT
Hi Rob Have you tried photobucket .com free file storage site down load photos to it.then open quick reply write message click for a new line,then open PB click on photo look to the right hand side copy EMG url left click then go back to your reply right click to paste, the url should come up and then post, the picture should be on your reply..Try it with a pic of Kate Upton Regards Peter.
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Post by silvervox on Jan 9, 2016 17:29:30 GMT
Although I pref to see a picture of Kate Upton draped on the sofa the same way... I find this pictures of these strat's not bad either Here is the picture you say you prefer of Kate Upton on the sofa Beat me to it!!!!
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Post by philc on Jan 9, 2016 18:09:46 GMT
Phil great picture I realy enjoy it! What is that thing on the right on your lower pick guard half?? Your right about these little deatils influence, I can match the recorded sound of Apache 100% at home, but when I recored it there is a small difference when we listen to it....very strange..... Cheers Rob Rob, It's an Italian Bronze Commemorative Medal from I think the 1800's. Regarding your recording of Apache:- Our ears play tricks with us when listening to live vs recorded, it's the same with our eyes, if your into photography, a subject will look perfect with the naked eye but once photographed, all the imperfections show Phil
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