Helix/Helix Native Bigger Sounds and Tones! (Video)

[garystrat]

This may be of interest to anyone interested in experimenting with bigger sounds, effects placement and tones using a Line 6 Helix or Helix Native software:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHi4ZFih2j0

Whist video relates more to distortion tones, some of the principals involved work pretty well with clean tones as well, one in particular is the first effect, which is kinky boost (that should liven things up a little... LOL) !

Regards

Gary

[GAJ52]

HI Gary

Many thanks for pointing out that video, very interesting.

Out of interest have you found a good setup with the Helix that gives you a good tone to use with one of Charlies echo units, I have the H&C and Q2. I have tries the Vox amps but feel it needs something else to give me Hanks modern tone, I'm currently using Kinman FV-HMS pickups.

Glen

[garystrat]

Hi Glen,

My setup is mostly software/DAW based, there may be common Helix tips that are worth sharing to see if they work for you, I will outline what I’m doing in Helix Native and try to extract the bits that may be of interest.

Before doing so I will explain that software is a more practical solution for my own home use, for some years my aim has been to achieve the authenticity and playing feel in this environment with minimal compromise.

Strictly speaking my guitar doesn’t conform to the typical Hank Strat specification, it’s an American Elite with with stock noiseless pickups and has 9/45 strings (so not what you would generally expect), it goes to directly to a Boss wireless unit, Peterson strobe Tuner (sweet tuning) and via my Focusrite Clarette 2 Pre USB audio interface to the computer (iMac).

Over the years I have experimented with various DAWs and plugins, when I purchased my audio interface about 3 years ago it came with a “Lite” version of Ableton Live 10 and in truth I gave way to the temptation to give it a try and was immediately impressed (I was using Logic Pro at the time), I have since upgraded the full version (now at 11). With plugins it’s very easy to fall into the trap of adding to achieve or compensate for some elusive sound element, but I now adopt a “less is more” approach.

My guitar chain at present is Wavesfactory Echo Cat, Helix Native, Celestion SpeakerMix pro (with Blue or Gold alnico open back twin cab IR (impulse Response), plus I have a set of Greenback IR’s) and finally Sound Toys “Little Plate” (Abbey Road style reverb).

Within Helix Native I have a straight forward Host to Host single chain (not using the input gate), first is a volume pedal, then to the Essex 15 (AC15) cab, next I’m using the “Kinky Boost” Distortion as described in the video (this is a trial, but works pretty well!) and then to the separate cab. At the moment my cab is the SpeakerMix Pro plugin which has some really excellent tone shaping capabilities and extended IR capability. However one get some excellent results from the Helix cabs, but they need to be set correctly and I will describe this first!

The twin cab Bluebell to me sounds right for the modern tones, EQ with a low cut at around 200 Hz and a high cut at 8 kHz, using a 47 Condenser mic at 1.0” distance, this is based on the Neumann U47. A lot of people say they are not keen on Helix speaker modelling, but in my experience that can sound pretty good!

With the Essex 15 I set the drive to 2.6, bass 3.5, mid 0.0, treble 5.8 and cut to 4.0. Your kit likely to sound different, so you may need to experiment a little aroma these settings.

One of the things that can influence this considerably is Channel and Master volumes, mine are set respectively at 4.0 and 7.0 for the Essex 15 Preamp, but this can vary on different pre amp models. Another point with mentioning is that software is far more tolerant on input/output headroom, on the software I aim to get it around -12 dB to -18 dB on all plugins, with physical pedals this of course is not the same.

I don’t own a Helix pedal, but from what others say Native pretty much sounds identical on good monitors or headphones, the software is offered at a heavily discounted price and I believe quite a few people build their patches for the pedals on it.

If you like the other video, these two videos by Pete Thorne may also be of interest:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=puisIlr6Jqc

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM-4GmvYnHg

Hope that some of this is of use to you, please let me know how you get on!

Regards

Gary

[somebodyelseuk]

Hi Gary,
Glen and myself were in contact about this a couple of weeks ago.
I can easily get the vintage tones from Helix Native, but struggling with the modern tone, though I haven't really put any work in to it..
I use the same approach with the cabinets, except I have the mic at 12" away.
My approach has been to try and match the gear HBM's been using more recently, ie. the Matchless models, but like I say, not put the hours in, so far.
I actually prefer Amplitube for working in the DAW (Reaper), and I use the included plugins to get my delays, but Native came free with my Helix, so it was worth learning it.

FWIW, I stumbled across a really good AC30 sim last week, for anyone who doesn't have deep pockets - www.kuassa.com/products/amplifikation-lancaster/
It's not free, but IMHO, it's well worth the money.

[garystrat]

Hi Julian,

It’s good to see you posting again, I understand what you are saying about the brighter tones, they can sound reasonably authentic but just lacking in that extra presence and brightness?

I normally use the Vox modelling for Hank tones and whilst the Essex 30 would be the natural choice, I have tended to work more around the Essex 15 because the effects of gain, channel volume and master volume seem to respond differently on that model. When it comes to cab it’s more of an AC 30 dual cab approach, I experimented with two single cabs in parallel with dual mic’s, but went back to the single mic dual cab. My aim has been to get the brightness without losing the character, which is why I stayed with U47 mic and not the natural choice of SM57 on the Helix cabs (I use the SM57 in SpeakerMix Pro because their mic range is not so extensive).

Interestingly, both cab modelling setups for mic’s work very differently, Helix it’s mic distancing and with SMP its relative cone positioning. The theory tell’s me that for the brighter tones one needs to be close mic’d, probably in what Celestion designate as their brighter area which is about 30% away from cone centre, keeps it relatively bright but not too harsh.
I also tend to drop the guitar level a little and let the sim do the work, in principal it’s not too different from what Pete Thorne is describing.

I haven’t experimented enough yet, but I think that placing the “Kinky Boost” with just settings on and all levels down between the pre-amp and cab does make a positive difference!

I’ve only used the older versions of Amplitube and I recognise the modelling keeps getting better, but I still seem to find something very satisfying about Helix Native if you are prepared to go through the learning curve, put the work into developing patches and maybe mix and match with other plugins.

The Echo Cat plugin may not seem a natural choice either, but for me it’s more about the vintage feel and character:

www.wavesfactory.com/audio-plugins/echo-cat/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsmJ-9umtpE


Best wishes

Gary

[somebodyelseuk]

Hi Gary,
As I've said before, I'm not "a fan", it's my Dad's era, and I've never been that 'obsessed' about sounding like anyone else, but this stuff gets addictive, doesn't it?
I did echo patches for my Dad's G3 about 10 years back, before Charlie was offering them, and since then I've translated them for Helix and my Reaper DAW - I originally wrote them in Reaper. My approach has always been sounding like the gear, rather than the player, and I suppose, as you'd expect, if you get it close, then when you add everything together, you get a pretty tasty cake!
My G3 patches, since I only did them for my Dad, were just focussed on the echos, as he's using a modelling amp, which takes care of the amp sound. It's the same approach I used for my plugin chains.

Agree about the cab micing. It's one of the reasons I prefer AT. You can adjust the mic distance and take it off access. Since v4, you can now switch the speaker models as well. I read a few years ago that HBM was using 2x12s with a V30 and Greenback per cab.

My 'Golden Rule No.1' regardless of what I'm recording, is to keep the recorded level between -12 and -18 dB. If anything needs boosting to create a sound or feel, I do it within the confines of the plugin and keep the signal going in and coming out uniform.
It probably wouldn't be relevant to a Hank Marvin sound, but you read a lot on 'the net' about guitarists getting harsh sound, especially with overdriven sounds, and you always find, they're trying to up the drive by sending a hot signal in to a plugin, as if they were using an OD pedal in front of a valve amp. What they're usually doing is clipping the input of the plugin, instead of 'virtually' overdriving the input of the amp model. Like you say, let the sim do the work.

One thing about the Helix (and the software) that's worth knowing is that the mix controls on the blocks, at 50% that means 50:50 wet:dry, whereas in a lot of other units, 50% would equate to half the level of the dry signal (50:100).

There's going to come a point soon where the 'Mad Scientist' in me is going to say 'sod it. I don't need amp sim. software. I can do it myself.' Afterall, an amp is just something that amplifies and EQs the incoming signal and blurts it out through a speaker.

[GAJ52]

Hi Gary

Many thanks for you very informative guide, I found it very interesting.

I too have the Helix Native software but rarely use it because I seem to suffer with a small amount of distortion if I use the same settings from my floor unit which is normally distortion free. I'm careful to keep the input below -12 db with no yellow clipping and the output around -12 again with no clipping. I tried your settings with the AC15 - Kinky Boost - 2x12 Blue Bell cab and still got slight distortion without the input or output clipping, very annoying.

I was surprised to see your AC15 Mid at 0.0 as someone on another site told me Hanks sound is more dependant on Mid than Bass or Treble. I have saved your settings in Native and will use those as a base for my own setup.

Julian kindly sent me a few of his Helix patches which again gave me an insight into setting up the Helix for Hanks sound. I'll spend some time studying your settings and get back to you with some questions if that's ok. If you or Julian can think of any reason why I'm getting slight distortion with Native and no input clipping I would love to know. If I lower the input or output too much the volume suffers.

[somebodyelseuk]

Hiya Glen,
Does the unprocessed signal sound clean?
In my experience of AC models, not just in Helix, they tend to get dirty at relatively low input gain settings, so avoid going above 2.5 on the amp input gain, unless you specifically want it to 'grit up'. You've seen my patches. I have the ACxx input gain around 2 and have the channel and master full up. If I recall correctly, I actually end up adding about 3dB at the plugin output slider. Inside the plugin, focus on getting the sound right. If it's a bit quiet, turn up the output coming out of the plugin.

If you don't get to the bottom of this, I'm happy for you to send me a patch over and I'll take a look to see if anything jumps out at me.

If you were having this happen on your floor unit, I'd say check your input impedance is correctly matched with whatever you're plugging in front of it, but in the DAW, that shouldn't be an issue.
Are you playing 'live' in to the DAW? Same applies at the interface. Make sure your input is set appropriately for whatever is plugged in to it.
I'm scratching my head after that... if you're using EMGs, change the battery - first sign they need changing is distortion - but I expect I'm the only person registered here who owns a set of EMGs

Anyways, I'll spend a bit of time on this 'modern sound' and report back.

Cheers, Julian

[garystrat]

Hi Julian,

I do recall you saying that you were not a “fan”, you’re right it’s very addictive and I can easily see “Mad Scientist” in you requiring that regular fix, welcome to the club! LOL

I have a keen interested in studio techniques, the technical and music production side, I enjoy discovering new things and trying them out for myself. This is why I have found the workflow in Ableton live not only suits my purposes well and can do almost anything I throw at it in a solid way without breaking sweat, but also makes advanced use much more accessible. To give you an example, if you setup a buses to be used across multiple tracks for say things like EQ, the controls are already there for you in the working tracks, just set up plugins in a bus track and dial them into the level, job done. The way it handles plugins is quite unique too, you can save settings across multiple plugins by using a “rack” (save the rack) and create a panel of macro’s to control them in unison.

A few months ago I came across Rufus “Tonebug” on YouTube, his story and gratitude to his parents in supporting his playing aspirations at an early age is expressed in his video of “Apache” which he dedicates to them, he has become such a really talented all round player with some really nice kit, to me this is whats it’s all about:

www.youtube.com/channel/UCaCOaxECKoPGBLj8LCA6EEw/videos

This link to the video of his “Misirlou” demonstrates the versatility and ability to adapt to different styles:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaowDh-DRwk

This another video on Amanda Hambridge restoring his Meazzi PA 306:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkau3Tc_c5c

Thank you for the information on Helix block control mix ratio’s, I hadn’t realised the the wet/dry mix were compensating one another!

It was also interesting you saying about the V30/Greenback speaker combination, Charlie was saying a while ago about a Blue/Greenback combination sounding really good. Dave Robinson used a V30 IR when demonstrating “Apache” on his new mobile/Spark Amp setup and I thought that a little strange when it had Blue IR’s as well, but It makes some sense now!


Hi Glen,

In terms of the distortion I think what may be happening in the case of Helix Native is that your input level is still a little hot, there is a reasonable tolerance in terms of a lower input/output, if you look the default input/output meter positions in HN they are about -20 dB, I normally stick around there and adjust siders if necessary to maintain a balance. This in isolation may not be the answer, with the Essex 15 I keep the Channel level quite high at 9.5, but drop the master volume to suit at around 6/7 in this case (you will find loading different pre-amp models the standard settings will vary depending on model). There have been quite a few forum comments about the pedal patches distorting in Helix Native which is possibly due to hardware differences, you will probably need to adjust levels between the two, using a pedal patch I would normally drop the gain as Julian suggests and do the fine tuning via master volume.

helixhelp.com/tips-and-guides/universal/common-amp-settings

From the above link you will see how the Master volume works in relation to distortion, but lowering it too much will reduce effects. The point is if you know whats going on is that you can start to decide how the balance suits you.

In terms of Mids if you’re aiming to get a brighter, fuller sound you don’t really want the mids dominating the brighter higher frequencies, but it can sound a little “thin”. To resolve this many people double track their recordings with a delay on the second track, you can do a similar thing in Helix by sending the signal chain path 1 to signal to paths 2a and 2b and putting a simple delay on one of the paths. If you’re not familiar with this at the end of path 1 it says to Host, click this and you will see the options come up to select 2a and 2b as described, both those paths need to to be routed to Host as the output.

With adding Mid it’s more a question of how you do it, most people would typically use a 10 band or Parametric EQ for a controlled ”Q” setting around the 1 - 2 kHz range, the AC30 of course has Bass, Treble and Cut controls.

Regards to both

Gary

[somebodyelseuk]

Gary,
The speaker combination came from an interview I read with an amp builder a few years ago - Cornell, I think - where he mentioned making an amp for Hank Marvin, and Hank had requested that he fit a V30 and a Greenback in there. He went on to explain the technicalities of it all. I think, this was around the time he'd been using Matchless DC30s for a few years, and Matchless had gone bankrupt. I seem to remember that was the speaker configuration that Matchless used in the DC30s, at least for a period of time, anyway.

The thing I love about Reaper, is the thing that most people hate about it. The plugins don't emulate anything. They're characterless, bog basic, drab GUI, but everything is adjustable. I don't have to tolerate someone's else's idea of what a tape echo sounds like. I can build it myself and get exactly the sound I'm after - the only limiting factors are my ears and brain.

I started messing around with synths about a year ago. I don't play keyboards, and I'm not particularly interested in synth music, but believe me, it is a great education. Should have done it years ago.

Cheers, Julian

[GAJ52]

Hi Gary and Julian

Many thanks for the great advice using the Helix.

Your knowledge on this unit is way above my capabilities, I bought this unit to try and replicate the AC15/AC30 simulation as the reviews were very good. Unfortunately I don't have the 'sound engineer' talent of you guys, but reading the advice you have given has given me an insight into what to look for in creating the sound I'm after. I have also bought the 'Big Book Of Helix Tips and Tracks' which has a lot of useful information on using various Blocks and settings.

Ok back to my steep learning curve.

Thanks again

Glen

[garystrat]

Hi Glen,

I can understand that you might feel a little overwhelmed, we have all been there, those who have the will and patience learn much faster by experimenting, often based on snippets of information and the experience of others. I didn’t know about the control block mixing ratios until Julian mentioned this, I look on it as being part of an open learning curve that can be a lot of fun and very satisfying when you start to get results that you can build upon, that fact that you’ve bought the book says that you’re already past the first hurdle!

As a starting point you have defined that it’s AC15/AC30 modelling that is your prime interest, so why not start from there and see on YouTube and other resources how people use it and set things up? They may not be even be the clean tones you’re looking, but still may introduce some characteristic or explain principals which are useful to your own sound.

I’ve found a couple of Jason Sadite videos, which I often studied myself and may of interest to you (he does a whole series on Helix and HN):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnvaW8g4pTM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZiypkvJq_0

Quite a while back i also came across the video below, much of it didn’t relate directly to what I was interested in, but I noticed what was to me an unfamiliar routing arrangement at that time, in particular paths 2A/B with one having a simple delay block at the start, from past experience it I could tell that it was most likely for double tracking. There is a link where you can download the the patch, which I did, replacing the path 1 with my normal AC30 chain (as it was then), turned everything off on paths 2 except the simple delay and by altering the delay times (the longer delay the thicker the sound, start about 10 - 20 ms). I had just discovered how to do double tracking within Helix rather than using copied DAW track with a delay on one, the advantage being that you can monitor it in real time within Helix!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvQnIXR5MwY

From there I started to have a look as to how Mark created the track routing and found it by click the path one host output point (pages 37 -39 Helix Native Pilots Manual), I had dived in without realising just how powerful the routing capability was, but now experiment these techniques on a regular basis!

Anyway, I hope you find this helpful!

Enjoy the journey!

Gary

[GAJ52]

Gary

I'm going to have to sit down and read this post through quite a few times to absorb the information you and Julian have offered.

Many thanks for starting this thread in the first place, you don't hear much about the Helix on this site normally especially with regard to the Hank Marvin type sound.

Again thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Glen

[ha2he]

As Glen says above many thanks for sharing this information and taking the time to do the research.

Gary, we have spoken previously with regard to the Laney L5T, I've still got mine! coupled to the H&C signature echo it is my go to Hank sound although capable of much more.

I followed a thread with much interest not too long ago which involved the Fab3 EQ if I remember correctly, fascinating stuff.

I've been interested in the software available for some time now, the early offerings were not the best, luckily they have come on in leaps and bounds and no doubt will improve further.

I too have the helix plugin and find it very good , although I no longer have the time to experiment fully, did find it very good (others are available )

I will take time to look at youtube and try your suggestions also.

All the best,
Regards,
Tim.

[garystrat]

Hi Tim,

Your kind comments are very much appreciated, and yes….. I still have my Laney L5T-112!

As you know I have been into amp modelling pedals and software for quite a while, to be honest I think the old Vox Tonelabs were one of the best at the time and I later regretted selling the one I had. You are indeed right in that the software has come a long way, I find you get out of Helix Native what you put in. It’s not that it needs to be overly complex to get initial results, but as the working knowledge of use and techniques develops the feel and authenticity seems to go up proportionally, which is perhaps why I feel that experimenting to find what you are personally looking for in terms effects and tones is often a better way forward!

Interestingly, the 200 Hz cab low cut I recommended above resulted as part of the dialogue I had with Bernard Coquelet and the trial involving his theory in the FabFilter Pro 3 post that you refer to, in fact he cuts the lows at 300 Hz and it may well be worth seeing if that works better for you, there are more monitoring and hardware variables with HN on computers. The Helix is described as being component modelled from high end selected amps, they have clearly focused on the interactive characteristic behaviour of parameters, I personally feel this provides a more authentic behaviour and tonal balance, which seems the right way to go!

Good hearing from you again!

Best regards

Gary

[garystrat]

Hi Glen/Julian,

just another thought, it could be the differences between your pedal and Native are due to the gain staging giving digital clipping, as I mentioned before people do seem to get issues with patch adjustment between the two and I came across this video which explains it well:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9GKwK2IgMc

In previous posts I’ve already mentioned the importance of gain staging plugins, for adjustments I would normally use the sliders to the side of the meters to level input/output signal on the meters, but it’s interesting he is using a gain block at the end of chain. I have noticed this on one or two other patches and I guess associated it more with driven sounds, but playing around last night it actually works pretty well with clean tones in bringing out a little more of the dynamics!

For clean tone it sounds a little counter intuitive to be looking at additional gain, but going to back to the initial video perhaps it all about where the blocks are placed in the chain?

Apologies in advance to Julian, but I suddenly realised last night that that Ableton Live has a feature that has become second nature to me, there are small signal level meters between each plugin, I wouldn’t say they are super accurate, but certainly enough to cast an eye over gain staging between plugins.

Another thing worth mentioning is that whilst I have a Peterson Strobe tuner, the latest Helix Native (and presumably the pedal) has a strobe tuner which is excellent, well worth checking out if you haven’t tried it!

Regards

Gary