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Post by jetblack69 on Apr 28, 2022 13:32:31 GMT
Hi all,
it's pretty obvious that MOST if not ALL on here are "SHADOWS FANATICS" so I think most of you know the history of FENDER and VOX,and how they came together but have you ever thought of the strange coincidences/paradox's contadictions almost.
Leo Fender...LEO COULD NOT PLAY GUITAR and the original family name (great grandfathers ) was FINTER, so we could have had a FINTER TELECASTER/STRATOCASTER.
DICK DENNY.. the man who designed the VOX AC15/30 WAS DEAF IN ONE EAR.
TOM JENNINGS...Tom Jennings was an accordion player and served with the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers during World War II. In 1942, Jennings was discharged on medical grounds and went on to work at a munitions plant in Kent. It was here that Jennings met amateur guitarist Dick Denney. Denney played with a local big band and on occasion, the two played together. Denny also had an interest in electronics and radio technology.
HANK MARVIN..as the story goes Cliff wanted to buy Hank a decent guitar and they ended up buying a FENDER STRATOCASTER beacause they thought that was where James Burton's sound came from...we know now it was a FENDER TELECASTER.
JOE BROWN..again the story goes that Joe had acquired a MEAZZI ECHOMATIC and did NOT like the sound so he offered it to Hank to try....and the rest...as they say is history.
I was 7 years old when APACHE was released in JUNE 1960. I remember hearing this AMAZING sound coming out of a jukebox in South-end on a daytrip there. I didn't realize it then, but "THAT SOUND" would stay with me and it wasn't until about 1964 that I actually heard this tune again on RADIO CAROLINE and it stopped me in my tracks....AGAIN. From then on I went to look round the record shops and got an original copy of APACHE which I still have COLUMBIA DB-4484. I also bought their 1st Album and anything I could find so I suppose I got into the Shadows later than some of you.
I left school in 1969 and in 1972 I bought myself a Strat and started to teach myself to play. I met a couple of other guys at work who also liked Shadows stuff and we started to practise together. We had a Peavy 100 watt amp and a bass amp and I bought a new Wem copycat on HP.
I did eventually sell my Strat and I bought a custom Telecaster off a friend...which I sold to another friend when I got married in 1981.
Anyway after a long time away from the playing side, I did eventually buy another couple of Strats and a JMI amp and started playing again after I retired in 2018. I had another LONG break..not even PICKING up a guitar from about late 2019 onwards until quite rencently.
I had an opportunity to buy a TVS3 thanks to Paul Rossiter, and with the help of Paul and Philc have just discovered that for ME...PERSONALLY my relentless search for "THAT SOUND" is over. As Phil said to me though the TVS3 does give you that "core sound" in spades but it's getting the other 5% or so that you have to work at. I am getting there and I will start to post a few tracks when i,m ready. After such a LONG break from playing my fingers are bleeding again and I need loads and loads of practise. It's as if my fingers have lost their memory and MY memory is not so good as I get older.
Anyway I will take the opportunity to sincerely THANK Paul and Phil for all the help and advice they have given me.
Regards
Steph.
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Post by Hendrickx on Apr 30, 2022 10:49:51 GMT
There are endless discussions for getting “ That Sound “ And you find on this website all the info you need in different places . But for beginners , it would be great that the most experienced give their advice in 3 price ranges : Low Budget / Medium Budget / High Budget And really in all areas : guitar / amp / echo box / pickups / plectrum / tremelo block / tuners / strings / cables / ……
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Post by jetblack69 on Apr 30, 2022 12:46:23 GMT
Yes I agree but the expeirenced obviously were beginners once.
Saying that if you are starting on a budget you could buy a Strat copy and use Chistians brilliant VST PACKAGE which is FREE. Moving on from that maybe a Quadraverb GT, or a Quadraverb Q20/Q2. There are quite a few reasonable options.
There are some pretty good AMP MODELLERS around now and you can get some good sounds out of these.
Some people are satisfied with the sound they would get from these methods, but it depends on how serious you are about getting THAT SOUND.
If you ARE serious you will KNOW that you NEED a VOX AC/15/30 most probably a Standard American Stratocaster with maybe some vintage pick-ups. and either a Meazzi,Long tom/short tom or a TVS3.
Some people will say THAT SOUND is objective...but when it really comes down to it and you ARE serious, ONLY A/B comparisons using the gear I described will prove that you have things good as you are going to get them...and that means 95-98%.
I have had ALL the various echo units over the years but it became apparent that for ME PERSONALLY the ONLY way to get that close IS a VOX AC15/30 Meazzi or TVS3.
Steph.
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Post by somebodyelseuk on May 6, 2022 8:31:31 GMT
You're all trying to copy the sound from a recording and the one thing you all don't have is Studio 2 at Abbey Road.
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Post by shadfan4 on May 6, 2022 9:53:52 GMT
Its a pity most think you can actually buy that sound, but without the actual recording environment and analogue equipment and the skilled white coat techs who actually captured the recordings getting "that sound" acurately a 100% wiil always be too far away to be indistinguishable from the original sound, but if you want the actual sound listen to the record. I spend a lot of time in my "Studio" recording Beatles tracks and have more firepower as to recording almost unlimited tracks and music processors than Abbey Rd studio's could dream of in the 60's, BUT I aint in Abbey rd and do not have the skills the techs & Geroge Martin had, so try my best, but do get frustrated I can't recreate those superb sounds that the Beatles achieved, even on a windy rooftop. Mike.
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Post by shawbridge on May 6, 2022 10:36:30 GMT
Hi, Have always argued that it is possible to get a really perhaps, authentic sound in a live performance but we are at the mercy of having a general EQ overall fir every effect we use on stage. However, we also know that fir every effect Hank used in the studio, then an EQ was set for each individual track recorded. This means that, possibilities of getting an accurate sound at home may be possible but certainly not on stage, I don’t think the Shadows at any point in their career n live performances would ever have achieved an accurate sound of their studio performance. The reasons being as above, re general EQ for everything and it was also know that very rarely did Hank adjust anything on the echo unit in the early days when playing live. What do people think? Peter
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Post by andyj47 on May 6, 2022 11:04:27 GMT
even the shadows dont sound like the early records when playing live. listen to apache and wonderful land on the live at the bbc .could be anybody playing it.you could play with a strat vox and a boss pedal and most punters would say it was ok.it mainly depends on what the individual is happy with .................. and how much they want to invest in the hobby !!
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Post by philc on May 6, 2022 13:54:26 GMT
In the early 60’s That Sound did not exist, it was just four musicians plugging in, setting the amp controls to how they wanted them, in Hanks case, selecting a pleasing echo and tweaking the volume, delay etc, the sound, once recorded was worked on to get it better, so eq was added, sometimes reverb, someone might have said, stick Hank through a compressor for this one as it will give better attack to the notes and bring the echos out. Everything was at hand, but there was no “that sound” to copy….it was just there!
Re.creating a similar sound to Hanks is not rocket science but getting an exact studio sound can be a bit frustrating as it needs to be understood what’s going on, then working out how to get it.
Phil
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Post by teflon on May 6, 2022 21:15:01 GMT
Going back to the co-incidences referred to in the OP, lets not forget that Johnny Foster originally visited the 2is with the intent of getting Tony Sheridan to join Cliffs band. Tony didn't show up, so we got Hank and Bruce . To take it a step further, Ken Pavey left the Drifters as they wouldn't agree to his new fiance joining them on Cliff first tour (with The Kalin Twins). If they'd agreed to Kens wishes, Johnny Foster would have had no need to visit the 2is at all. Serendipity at its best
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Post by Hendrickx on May 6, 2022 23:20:37 GMT
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Post by somebodyelseuk on May 7, 2022 9:40:12 GMT
Going back to the co-incidences referred to in the OP, lets not forget that Johnny Foster originally visited the 2is with the intent of getting Tony Sheridan to join Cliffs band. Tony didn't show up, so we got Hank and Bruce . To take it a step further, Ken Pavey left the Drifters as they wouldn't agree to his new fiance joining them on Cliff first tour (with The Kalin Twins). If they'd agreed to Kens wishes, Johnny Foster would have had no need to visit the 2is at all. Serendipity at its best ...and that applies to pretty much everything that's ever happened in the history of the universe.
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Post by teflon on May 7, 2022 21:33:10 GMT
Going back to the co-incidences referred to in the OP, lets not forget that Johnny Foster originally visited the 2is with the intent of getting Tony Sheridan to join Cliffs band. Tony didn't show up, so we got Hank and Bruce . To take it a step further, Ken Pavey left the Drifters as they wouldn't agree to his new fiance joining them on Cliff first tour (with The Kalin Twins). If they'd agreed to Kens wishes, Johnny Foster would have had no need to visit the 2is at all. Serendipity at its best ...and that applies to pretty much everything that's ever happened in the history of the universe. Of course, but it's still nice to sometimes muse on what could have happened.
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Post by barryjh on May 8, 2022 10:58:36 GMT
Well, it's good to re visit the subject and it may be of interest to know that Andrew Ings published a very good book called "Rockin at the 2i's" which documents much of what happened and the people that were there. Cliff and Jet sang/played more often at another club "down the street" than at the 2i's and many recalled that another "regular" singer was under very strong consideration for the "Kalin Twins" tour called Russ Sainty. Russ was a very popular/in demand singer who missed the tour selection session at the 2i's due to illness which urgently turned the promoters focus towards "others" which included Cliff. I did meet Russ on a few occasions and he indicated that he was very busy performing at the time and a lot was going on around them but he said that he often wondered what might have been .... maybe?
RIP Russ Sainty he died last year - a very nice guy and unsung hero (you can see him with Cliff in a photo during the unveiling of the blue plaque commemorating the 2i's history) ... if you have time google his profile its worth a visit.
Regards, Barry
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Post by sandytuck on May 8, 2022 23:34:28 GMT
Hi, Good reading about the different opinions including guitars effects strings etc. and there are a lot of different factors, environment rooms, halls, studios and more. Like Chet Atkins said a lot comes from the fingers and by that we are all different and all basically have different touch and playing styles. We should all be happy with the sound we get you don't have to sound like original to sound good Cheers.
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Post by somebodyelseuk on May 17, 2022 14:14:25 GMT
Another 'what if...' to ponder is whether Mr Marvin would have gone back to Strats had his Burns guitars not been stolen?
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Post by andyj47 on May 17, 2022 14:58:11 GMT
the use of the burns coincided with the use of a lot less echo, the loss of that sound, a general difference in the group from the glory days.we dont know , but i would guess that hank and bruce prefered strats. however the burns fans obviously wont agree !!
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Post by shawbridge on May 17, 2022 17:23:05 GMT
Hi Andy, Possibly it was to fall in line with the Current Mersey beat sound of that particular Era, a uniformity sound not too much out of the ‘with it’ at that time. I think the Burns sound certainly had its place but for me it was never ‘That Sound’ he had originally with the Strats.
Peter
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Post by andyj47 on May 17, 2022 17:59:11 GMT
hi mate,well, it could have been to match up with the liverpool groups sound,this swept everything before away, personally i always thought the swinging blue jeans had the best sound out of liverpool very stratty !i know im in a small minority here, i think there was a backlash against fenders and the shadows from merseybeat musos after 63,but thy probably though theyd go with the flow.there was some bullshit put out at the time that they got some strats supplied with bad fret positioning !,now then, how likely was that considering the current value of 63 strats !!! nah, it was some deal with jim burns that did it.
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Post by somebodyelseuk on May 27, 2022 7:48:11 GMT
It's well documented that they switched to Burns guitars, because they were having tuning stability problems with the Fenders. The bad fret positioning is plausible, because there had been a strike at the Fender factory in 62/63 which led to necks having to be made by the management for a while. This resulted in some anomalies such as v profiled rosewood necks - I know THIS is fact, as a friend of mine owned a 62 with a v back neck in the mid 80s The question is whether Hank would have returned to Strats had his Burns not been stolen? He switched back to Strats simply because he needed guitars and Burns were out of business.
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Post by glyderslead on May 27, 2022 9:12:46 GMT
I've found this to be an interesting discussion on the topic of "That Sound" and I've also wondered if Hank would have switched back to Fenders had his Burns guitars not been stolen. I really like and have some Burns guitars but have always thought that the tremolo system employed was a bit "Heath Robinson". There has never been a comment from Hank, as far as I am aware, but I suspect it was a troublesome system for professional use. I've noticed that many Burns guitars up for sale evidence much work on and around the tremolo arm where it connects to the top plate So, I wonder if the theft was a convenient and face saving excuse to go back to Fender.
Cheers
Mick
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Post by didier on May 27, 2022 9:22:21 GMT
It's well documented that they switched to Burns guitars, because they were having tuning stability problems with the Fenders. The bad fret positioning is plausible, because there had been a strike at the Fender factory in 62/63 which led to necks having to be made by the management for a while. This resulted in some anomalies such as v profiled rosewood necks - I know THIS is fact, as a friend of mine owned a 62 with a v back neck in the mid 80s The question is whether Hank would have returned to Strats had his Burns not been stolen? He switched back to Strats simply because he needed guitars and Burns were out of business. When I saw the Shadows at the Paris Olympia in 1964, they had guitars I had never seen or heard of before. I was close enough to the stage to read "Burns London" on these guitars, so I though that they were complying to the "buy british" slogan of this time ! But in in fact, the Shadows always preferred the gear they didn't have to pay for... Didier
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Post by somebodyelseuk on May 27, 2022 14:24:12 GMT
It's well documented that they switched to Burns guitars, because they were having tuning stability problems with the Fenders. The bad fret positioning is plausible, because there had been a strike at the Fender factory in 62/63 which led to necks having to be made by the management for a while. This resulted in some anomalies such as v profiled rosewood necks - I know THIS is fact, as a friend of mine owned a 62 with a v back neck in the mid 80s The question is whether Hank would have returned to Strats had his Burns not been stolen? He switched back to Strats simply because he needed guitars and Burns were out of business. When I saw the Shadows at the Paris Olympia in 1964, they had guitars I had never seen or heard of before. I was close enough to the stage to read "Burns London" on these guitars, so I though that they were complying to the "buy british" slogan of this time ! But in in fact, the Shadows always preferred the gear they didn't have to pay for... Didier I think you'll find Hank probably didn't pay for his stage gear (guitars, at least) from about 58 to around 73. 34346 was paid for by Sir Cliff and the pre-Burns Fenders were loaned to the band by the UK distributor.
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Post by didier on May 29, 2022 9:37:31 GMT
When I saw the Shadows at the Paris Olympia in 1964, they had guitars I had never seen or heard of before. I was close enough to the stage to read "Burns London" on these guitars, so I though that they were complying to the "buy british" slogan of this time ! But in in fact, the Shadows always preferred the gear they didn't have to pay for... Didier I think you'll find Hank probably didn't pay for his stage gear (guitars, at least) from about 58 to around 73. 34346 was paid for by Sir Cliff and the pre-Burns Fenders were loaned to the band by the UK distributor. And when Hank bought a Strat from Patrice Bastien in december 1980, it was paid by Polydor... Didier
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