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Post by philbarker on Nov 13, 2009 10:21:06 GMT
The DVD arrived yesterday and I fast-forwarded - as it were - to the Shadows bits eager to hear how the new TVS3 echoes came over compared with the Final Tour DVD where the Alesis Q20 was used. On first hearing, I was rather disappointed so I switched to the Final Tour DVD (I have them as separate mpgs and wavs on the computer) and had another listen to those tracks. I then converted the 2009 DVD Shadows tracks to wavs and listened again and was even more disappointed with the rather insipid sound. Then I remembered that I had read on the boards about the echoes at the O2 concert(s) not being up to speed in certain people’s opinions. At later concerts these comments changed, so I expect the echo settings were tweaked.
It is however unfortunate that, like me, most analyses of the sounds and echoes will be based on this 2009 DVD.
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Post by twang46 on Nov 13, 2009 13:24:43 GMT
Surprised to hear of your disappointment in the sound of the tour dvd Phil
I found the sound to be very clear & not lacking in anything, echo's of course are very subjective.
Try listening to the dvd through a good sound card & some good quality 'phones (use the 2.0 setting) & see if you like the sound better.
My tv is very good for picture but only moderate for sound quality through the on board speakers & needs a good dvd sound system, but, as I only have 2 ears I prefer the 2.0 or 2.1 setups for the tv sound.
The O2 is a (very) big shed & as such most of the "acoustics" you hear & feel in a good concert hall will be lost but I feel that the recording is a "direct" recording with audience sounds etc.. added in post production, so the location was not a big part of the "sound".
Hope this helps in some way
Dick
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2009 16:37:42 GMT
Hi,
I think it is extremely unlikely that you would detect the difference between the effects of the Q20 and the TVS3 from a live performance such as this. There are too many other factors at work. Remember also that Hank is using different pick-ups and different amps to anything else he has used for some time. Then there is the additional work that has been carried out to record and then reproduce the DVD.
The only accurate and fair way to compare the two is to hear a studio produced track of the same number played first through the Q20 and then the TVS3.
I have had several exchanges with the people at TVS recently and they have now made me more aware of the differences between the two sounds. It is a subtle difference, but when you know what you are looking to hear, it is very obvious.
Frankly having listened to scientifically produced samples of the two units, I certainly would not expect to pick these differences up from a live performance.
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by philbarker on Nov 13, 2009 17:29:11 GMT
Ian
I was not being critical of the TVS3 unit used and I agree totally with your comments. It's just that there were negative comments posted after the first stages of the tour, questioning the echo timings etc and it was at one of the first O2 concerts when the DVD was recorded - in fact the DVD was advertised even before the tour began!!. Comments made after later concerts were very positive. My point is that it's a pity that the 2009 DVD does not show the Shadows, perhaps at their best sound - for me anyway. If the DVD recording had been made at a later show when any sound issues were sorted out – assuming any were acknowledged, the DVD might have been better. But then it probably would have missed the Xmas market.
I haven’t watched the Cliff bits yet and I am only commenting on the Shadows.
Phil B
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 13, 2009 17:35:19 GMT
Hi Phil,
As far as I remember just about all the negative comments were about the amount of echo, not the delay times. I don't think anyone said the echoes sounded wrong, just that there wasn't enough of it on some numbers.
There was also some comment about The Savage, where the repeat echo at the end couldn't be heard at the live shows, is it more apparent on the DVD?
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by philbarker on Nov 14, 2009 9:31:21 GMT
Charlie
I listened again last night, with headphones and perhaps I might be being too harsh and picky but the overall sound just seems a bit lifeless to me and lacking “that sound” – it’s difficult to explain and it might sound fine to someone else. Certainly on Apache, on the galloping part, the echo or tap at the end of the first sequence of the gallop seems missing completely. There’s nothing at the end of The Savage at all! Most of the other tracks are OK but refer above.
On the plus side there are lots of close ups of Hank’s finger work throughout and although having made these subjective and slightly negative observations, I would have no hesitation in recommending the DVD.
Phil B
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Post by twang46 on Nov 14, 2009 10:53:19 GMT
On my setup I can clearly hear the echo's at the ending of "the savage"on the dvd. They are however at a lower level than the recorded versions so perhaps this is were the confusion is coming from ? I must admit that I am not a "stickler" for exact echo timings etc.. I listen to the overall sound & enjoy it for what it is. Wouldn't this be a boring site if we all heard the same things & always agreed with each other  Cheers Dick. |
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Post by philbarker on Nov 14, 2009 11:32:05 GMT
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Post by Emiel Visser on Nov 14, 2009 11:38:09 GMT
Hi,
I was at the concert on the 11th in Rotterdam.
Overall the echoes where more there than on the DVD.
Wonderful Land, Atlantis, The Savage, near to the singles we all know.
We all know that Hank uses less echo than he did in the early years, but I think for the reunion, he went back to how he used to play. Also his playing style, hitting the strings firmly, was more there than I noticed at earlier concerts.
Regards,
Emiel
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Post by twang46 on Nov 14, 2009 14:45:21 GMT
Very interesting files there Phil.
Comparing the 2009 clip you posted with listening straight off the dvd I hear an improvement with direct listening which I suppose must be down to the recording losses.
But there is no disputing the fact that the echo's are at a lower level than the 2004 version.
Bearing in mind that it is a different version of "the savage" than the recorded versions that Hank is playing on the tour, do you think he was using a different echo "setting" to acomodate the tune ( harmonics & all ! )
So, may I ask how you got the audio from the dvd Phil ? as this is an obvious candidate for playing in the car (along with some of the Cliff songs)
Cheers
Dick
ps......... I still can't explain to the missus my fascination with music that is getting on for 50 years old now
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Post by philbarker on Nov 14, 2009 15:27:32 GMT
Dick
I suppose if Hank wanted it that way on the reunion tour, who am I to nitpick!
I use a program called Xilisoft Video Converter to get the sound off the video. The process to get to that stage is a bit complicated though and I use other software to break down the video file. I dear say there is an expensive piece of software out there that does it all but I don’t know what that is and I use other software programs I have accumulated over the years.
What you said about your missus I think applies to a lot of us. They just don’t understand do they – that sense of satisfaction achieved when you finally nail that lick or sound – or think you have and have to try and perfect it the next day… and the day after.....
Phil
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 14, 2009 18:51:48 GMT
The delay times are near enough the same on both. The only real difference I hear is the amount of echo, less on the 2009 version.
Hank did not use a different style of echo to the original.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by gus on Nov 14, 2009 20:21:48 GMT
Hi, I think it is extremely unlikely that you would detect the difference between the effects of the Q20 and the TVS3 from a live performance such as this. There are too many other factors at work. Remember also that Hank is using different pick-ups and different amps to anything else he has used for some time. Then there is the additional work that has been carried out to record and then reproduce the DVD. The only accurate and fair way to compare the two is to hear a studio produced track of the same number played first through the Q20 and then the TVS3. I have had several exchanges with the people at TVS recently and they have now made me more aware of the differences between the two sounds. It is a subtle difference, but when you know what you are looking to hear, it is very obvious. Frankly having listened to scientifically produced samples of the two units, I certainly would not expect to pick these differences up from a live performance. Cheers, Hi Ian, maybe you can clue us in on what those "suble differences "are. Gus Ian |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 14:36:31 GMT
Hi Gus,
Well, it's not easy to put into words - and these are my words, not something I've taken from someone else.
The differences I heard between EFTP and TVS3 were mainly in tonal qualities; something like the differences between a digital sound and an analogue one. The digital one is clear and precise, the analogue one has more ambience, more background. Another adjective I could use is 'fuller' in terms of tone - something similar to the difference between the sound produced on the middle pick-up of a Strat compared with the neck.
As I said in my earlier post, it is my opinion that these differences are far too subtle to pick up by sampling just one live performace. There are many other factors at work which would be more influential on the overall sound the audience will hear.
Cheers
Ian
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Post by alanmckillop on Nov 18, 2009 12:53:31 GMT
I can't think that anyone would want to compare the 2004 and 2009 dvd's. Hank's sound in 2004 was poor due to the output on his Q20's being set to high, which resulted in distortion/clipping (call it what you like) and for me, this wasted the dvd. The 1st halve was worse than the 2nd half, because he (Hank) was alerted to the problem at the interval and as a result, the Q20 had the output slightly reduced, but again imo, it could have been reduced further.
I think the 2009 dvd is a fabulous memory of 50 years, both in sound and picture quality.
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Post by philbarker on Nov 18, 2009 15:37:25 GMT
Alan
I did say I led a bit of a sad life when I posted the clips for comparison! In the final analysis it is, as you touched on in the pickup questions, down to what is considered the more preferable sound as heard and interpreted by the individual – and that is exactly as it should be.
Phil B
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Post by Daniel Holm on Nov 19, 2009 15:04:00 GMT
Was at the Gothenburg concert yesterday. What a superb concert. I´m speechless. Have´nt seen them before so it was a true great experience. The echo from Hank sounded very well balanced and had the right volume to it. Perfect!
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Post by peterk on Nov 21, 2009 9:46:27 GMT
I see that a few people have been to the concerts so I am looking for comments.
While I have always liked the Shadows I cannot stand Cliff Richard. I am trying to decide whether or not to go to the concert in Bisbane Australia early next year.
If it is mostly Cliff Richard I won't go but if the Shadows feature enough i will probably go.
Any comments?
I quite like the 2004 DVD by the way and play it pretty often. The only disappointing thing is that there are not many shots of Hank's fingering. I use DVD's to see how the players do it. I notice that he uses a lot of up strokes. I assume that this also contributes to his sound.
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Post by philbarker on Nov 21, 2009 10:36:35 GMT
Peter
If you can get a ticket my advice is to definitely GO! I have regretted not doing so as I was not that bothered about Cliff and my friends and family who did go tell me I missed a great show. The Shadows do enough on their own stuff to justify the ticket and remember they are backing Cliff. On the DVD there are quite a few close-ups of Hank's fingerwork.
Phil B
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Post by bill on Nov 21, 2009 12:52:06 GMT
Hi Peter,
Well I suppose it depends how badly you dislike Cliff. I'm not a fan of Cliff, I don't have a single Cliff record and have never seen him before. Because of that I too wondered whether to go but I decided in the end to go and for me the Shadows had their fair share of time.
However, I don't hate Cliff, during his numbers I took it upon myself to concentrate on what the Shadows were doing to back him and I found that quite interesting in itself. (As an aside, a Cliff fan I know felt that Cliff with The Shadows was better than any of the other times he's seen Cliff; he also enjoyed the Shadows backing).
What you can't do is plan to only go in for the Shadows numbers because although they aren't performed one at a time, the concert has been planned as a whole so it isn't a Cliff first section then a Shadows section en-block. You have to go for the whole concert.
If you read some of the other threads about the concerts you will see there is also a concern about the actual sound. If you want to hear the sound of a fifty year old record then you will be disappointed. I have a completely different need and would be very disappointed if, having gone to a lot of trouble to get to a gig, it sounded the same as I could have heard at home.
I really enjoyed it and for me it was well worth the 600 mile round trip and the ticket price (which was also a concern for me).
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Post by peterk on Nov 22, 2009 1:06:27 GMT
OK, thanks for the advice.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2009 1:33:41 GMT
HI PETER,K,,, well mate I am not a cliff fan as such but have my ticket's for the STH-AUST-concert ,[the first-one as it sold-out & they are doing 2x concert's on the 10th&11th feb 2010]
I just hope they are not ''worn-out'' by the time they get here,,, ha.haar..
If you like the shads you should ''GO'' as there will not be another!!!
CHEERS MATE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,barry..
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Post by Emiel Visser on Nov 23, 2009 5:36:36 GMT
Hi Peter, I wonder what you decided............  I went and it was great. Regards, Emiel |
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Post by Fender Bender on Nov 26, 2009 23:46:53 GMT
Hi
I received my 2009 DVD yesterday and watched it twice already.The sound and picture quality is very good played with my DVD sound system and I'm looking forward to see them next year in South Africa.
However,like others I noticed the low echo volume but there is nothing wrong with the echo speeds and intervals,just the echo level as by now we all know was rectified after the O2 shows.
To me Hank has an overall better tone despite the echo level than the 2004 DVD but that is only my view.I have two comments and that is that Hank could have played "Don't Talk To Him" on a strat as the 12 string "Burns" did no justice to the sound in the position Hank played it on the DVD.It was only Apache that I really found difficult to hear the echo but overall a very good show and sound and I recommend the DVD to those who don't have it yet.The Shads backing are superb including their harmony vocals.
Regards
Louis
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Post by Cruachan on Nov 27, 2009 0:46:08 GMT
I think the 2009 dvd is a fabulous memory of 50 years, both in sound and picture quality. Just what I was thinking. I watched it today and thoroughly enjoyed every minute. All credit to those who put this together. Wonderful job! To be honest I prefer the balance of sound on the DVD to what I heard at the show which I felt was far too loud at times and for me this obscured the subtleties of the music. Still, this could partly be due to the fact that I was sitting 5 rows back from the front I too have never been much of a Cliff fan and I have never seen him perform live. I have now (at the SECC Glasgow) and I do have to say I was very impressed. He gave us a strong and energetic performance and never wavered from pitch - not bad for someone in his 60's. The chemistry between him and the Shads was clear for all to see and this was reflected in their faces as they were obviously enjoying the experience as much as their audience. Mike |
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Post by abbeyroed on Dec 10, 2009 21:04:15 GMT
Good day , and a Merry Christmas to all members/familys. An excellant forum with lots of 'cherished' info. I live in Nfld. Canada and would like an authorized authentic 'Cliff and The Shadows Reunion 2009' DVD. Can anyone tell me where I can buy it in Canada or the U.S.A. I've 'googled', but no one seems to have it available. I also realize that it's in PAL format, but that doesn't matter as my player can play them. (I have some PAL's of Cliff now); or, where can I purchase one? Thanking you in advance for your replys. Ed!!!!
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Post by ianrigby on Dec 10, 2009 21:13:53 GMT
Hi Ed,
try Amazon. if not .com then UK. That should sort you out.
My understanding is that it is to be released in North America around 19th January 2010.
All the best. Ian
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 10, 2009 23:20:18 GMT
Hi Ed,
Bear in mind that a DVD purchased in UK and probably Europe will be for region 2 players. Unless you have a player for all regions it wouldn't be suitable.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by abbeyroed on Dec 11, 2009 0:02:07 GMT
Thanks to both Ian and Charlie for your replys. I'll probably wait until Jan. as Ian suggested. Ed!!
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Post by abstamaria on Jan 6, 2010 6:37:08 GMT
In a thread, someone wrote that Hank Marvin had some dofficulties with Voc, I recall, in the 1980s and refused to have anything to do with them. Is that true and the reason why Voxes weren't used in the tour?
Andy
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