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Post by betowelch on Nov 19, 2009 15:30:24 GMT
Hi All: First at all I must give my apologies as in last months I didn't post any recordings. I had a problem with my original microphone and recording way and I need to give some improvements. Now with new audio devices and new recording software I'm ready to starting with my new recordings again and with a better sound quality... Well the main question it's about a better setup for Find Me a Golden Street. I'm not happy with it (I'm using the U13 Charlie patch in MS and with middle pickup)....but in my Vox (Heritage model) I'm not finding a good setting for best sound simulation comparing with the original from Shadows. IMHO I think that this tune (as others as Sleepwalk, The 3rd Man.....) there is a more complicated setup for a fine setting of a sound closer to its original. If possible I would appreciated, and I'm thanking in advance, if someone could give me a more closer setup for this very nice tune. PS- As a result af all this thread, I finally re-recorder this tune and it was posted in this site on Dec, 19. Thanks for all that could had some contribuition on it.. Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 19, 2009 15:53:16 GMT
Hi Roberto, You would need to use the EF86 channel (the one without treble and bass controls). I expect you have already tried that however. Have you tried setting the cut control to warm up the sound? Can you also remind me which pickups you are using? I seem to remember you have Lace Sensors but I am not sure. If so, which colour model is the middle pickup? Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 19, 2009 16:32:39 GMT
Hi Charlie:
Thanks for your replay. I'm using the EF86 channel. and also I tried to warm up the sound in cut control. But I'm not happy with sound...I think that the original sound in this tune it's in a some way, some special tone...and very warm and mellow....... I'm using my new guitar that has Lindy Fralin pickups.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 19, 2009 16:39:35 GMT
Hi Roberto, Can you send me a short sample of the sound you are getting when you play this tune? I don't need it with a backing track. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 19, 2009 16:55:13 GMT
Hi Charlie:
OK. Tonight I'll send it to you.
Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by betowelch on Nov 19, 2009 22:16:33 GMT
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 20, 2009 0:57:04 GMT
Hi Roberto, Use brilliance setting 2 (don't set it any other way for Shadows sounds), bass shift 1. Then set the cut control for the best sound. If the bass strings sound too bassy with the cut control turned to lower treble, set bass shift to 2. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 20, 2009 20:02:01 GMT
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 21, 2009 0:06:24 GMT
Hi Roberto, It sounds much better. Did you alter the cut control too? You could set it to remove a little more treble I think. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 21, 2009 0:49:48 GMT
Hi Charlie:
Thanks for your reply. OK. I'm agree with you and I'll reduce a little the treble in cut control.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Tone on Nov 21, 2009 13:15:23 GMT
Hi Roberto
I'm having a similar problem to you but with Sleepwalk which I've picked as a benchmark to try to nail the sound using my new 50th Anniversary Strat, AC15 Heritage and ESE Echomatic. I can get a very good sound but, after listening carefully to the original, it's not quite there. As you say, there seems to be some sort of special tone on the recording and I'd love to know how it was achieved.
My amp settings are pretty well those suggested by Charlie but I'm still experimenting. You might also like to try the following variations which may help (kindly suggested to me by Scouser Joe):
1) Turn down the guitar volume to 7 or 8 which reduces the top end. 2) Try using picks of different thickness. I knew, of course, that this affects the sound but it wasn't until I tried using three picks in succession on the same piece that I realised how much of a difference it makes.
Good luck!
Any further comments on the volume and pick factors, Charlie?
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by betowelch on Nov 21, 2009 16:02:49 GMT
Hi Roberto, It sounds much better. Did you alter the cut control too? You could set it to remove a little more treble I think. Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie: Sorry for my late answer. I had been busy in my work. Well I did a little new adjusting with less treble as you recommended me. Here's the sample. www.4shared.com/file/156666582/b4c0efa3/Find_Me_a_Golden_Street__Beto_test-_C5.htmlPlease let me know what do you think about... Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 21, 2009 19:34:54 GMT
Hi Roberto, It sounds very good to me, I think it is as close to the original as you will get.
Hi Tony, Reducing guitar volume does remove high end but also tends to disconnect the guitar pickups from capacitance in the cable, so bite is lost too. I am fairly certain that Hank always plays on 10, have you ever noticed him checking all the controls after he changes guitar, he always makes sure they are full up very quickly, never deliberately setting any of them to a specific setting. As for picks, my choice for many years has been a .6mm orange Dunlop Tortex, I can't play well with a thicker pick as I use basically 10s. I think with heavier strings I would go to a heavier pick. I have box full of various picks but I never use the others, except perhaps when playing acoustic guitar. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Nov 21, 2009 22:07:49 GMT
Hi Charlie:
OK. I'll work with this setting. Thanks for your always important teachings.
Tony: Thanks for your comments about it. I tried as you explain me, with lower guitar volume and using differents pics. But for my taste (imho) I think that it's better always with max guitar volume, as Charlie also explain upper.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2009 9:24:05 GMT
Hi Tony, Reducing guitar volume does remove high end but also tends to disconnect the guitar pickups from capacitance in the cable, so bite is lost too. I am fairly certain that Hank always plays on 10, have you ever noticed him checking all the controls after he changes guitar, he always makes sure they are full up very quickly, never deliberately setting any of them to a specific setting. Hi, Charlie, I notice also that Hank turns the volume down to zero when he finishes a number before taking his guitar off and handing it to his technician. A sensible precaution I think to avoid any unnecessary noise. I wouldn't dispute your observation about the effects of reducing pick-up volume, but I would question whether it is entirely appropriate to copy what Hank does today when attempting to replicate sounds produced nearly 50 years ago ! Hank's sound today is a far cry from 1961 - and to my mind anyway - far less interesting and exciting. I am sure he would have experimented with sound back then in just the same way we do today. His playing style is also very different and he often plays on stage with set-ups which are totally different to those which he used when he originally recorded the tracks. Peace Pipe on the Final Tour is a good example - clearly a neck pick-up number in 1961, but now a bridge pick-up number on the tour. So, if I'd followed that guidance when working out the settings for the 1961 recorded version Peace Pipe for myself I would have taken forever to find the right sound. Roberto, when I have done my own experiments with tone, I have always started with a clean slate and trusted my own ears. I think it is too easy to latch on to ideas from others which might not always be correct, nor appropriate, with your particular set-up. Yes, tips from others are very useful and should be experimented with, but trust your own judgement best of all. Cheers, Ian
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 22, 2009 19:25:27 GMT
Hi Ian, I agree about Hank playing differently now to how he did then and using different equipment. But I would think that he has probably always had the guitar volume set on 10 because of his eyesight, it wouldn't have been so easy for him to set an exact volume setting, although I do realise that old school players tended to alter the volume on the guitar, backing off for rhythm, and turning up for lead. But has anyone seen Hank doing that on old video clips of live performances? I don't think I have. And would he really have needed to? It could have been different in the studio of course but the engineers would almost certainly have done their best to make sure the guitar volume was turned up full to minimise noise from the amps and echo units. It may be that the guitars Hank used were the rosewood board Strats for the warmer sound that we try to emulate. I read recently that they were used from around 1961 onwards. This was around the time of the first album too, and I have sometimes wondered whether different Strats were played on that album. If you have listened to my recording of My Resistance Is Low, you will hear the different sound compared with my other recording of Find Me A Golden Street. I used an original 62 Strat on My Resistance is low, and it was a very warm sounding guitar with a distinct lack of high end compared to most Strats. Many other Strats of the time also had a warmer sound (I have owned an original 62 and two different original 64s). However, I wouldn't think the original recordings of those two tunes were necessarily different Strats but then again, I think the original Find Me A Golden Street is a warmer sound than I got. Also the warm sound may also have had to do with using longer guitar cables, or poorer quality ones than what is available today. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2009 8:47:56 GMT
Hi Charlie,
I agree entirely with what you suggest about the different sound being produced from the different guitars. If the modern equivalents (NOS 56 and NOS 60) are anything to go by then there is a very obvious difference between the two - the Rosewood necked NOS 60 having a much warmer and mellower tone on the top strings and a much deeper 'grunt' on the lower ones.
As you also say, Hank received his Rosewood guitar sometime very early in 1961 (there are photographs of him using it at the NME Pollwinners' Concert on 5th March 1961) so there will always be some speculation as to which guitar he used for recording a particular number around that time.
I've spent a lot of time working out the settings for the pre-1962 recordings and I'm convinced that 'Golden Street' was produced on the Maple necked Strat, the warmer sound being achieved by backing off the volume to 8. I agree with you that 'My Resistance is Low' sounds very much like the Rosewood Strat. Surprisingly (or not), however, I find that a good likeness to most of the other tracks on the first LP can be achieved on either guitar by simply adjusting a few settings here and there.
I think the most important element in achieving the right sound is to use an amp with an EF86 channel. Next in line comes the echo, and finally the guitar and strings. I've also commented before that the type of pick, the picking position and position of the fingering can also make a massive difference to the final sound achieved from any set-up (Hank often works much higher up the neck than the average player). Having the right gear does not always mean you'll get the right sound if you don't play it in the right way!
But then others might think differently ....
Cheers
Ian
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Post by asimmd on Nov 23, 2009 9:41:37 GMT
Hi Ian
I am always fascinated by your knowlegeable comments about Hank's sound,and I was interested to read your comments regarding "Golden St"
Golden Street - Mustang - Shane - Giant - Shotgun,etc all have what I consider to be that classic Hank sound,the "That Sound" that a lot aspire to achieve.
Not being able to afford a £5000 Oasis special,I have had a set of pickups custom wound to the 59 spec,as per the Abigail Ybarra's,and I have installed them in my NOS56 Custom Shop.
The sound is so close to what I like but, there is still that "Timbre"you hear on the records that is missing which I think must be down to the echo I am using.
I am playing through a Vox Tonelab,which has an EF86 setting,but I will try your hint and turn down the volume and see what happens.
The strings I use are D'Addario 11/49,which I have used for years,do you think I would achieve better results using a different string,and if so would you care to say which make may give better results.
I also agree with your comments about playing position,I always try to play at the same position Hank used.
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 23, 2009 10:15:39 GMT
Hi Ian / Charlie and Alan:
Thanks for the continuing of this discussion about how to get the more close sound in "Find...Golden Street". I don't have enough know-how to go in this matter as Ian and Charlie are changing with us. For me it was always a big question how Hank got the sound in Golden Street since it's very difficult to emulate today with all the modern gears that we have. The same I can say about Sleepwalk, Blue Star and others.
Ian: I'll to record again this my Golden Street but with my old one guitar that has a more soft tremolo than my new one and I'll set as you recommend me with less guitar volume and trying with different pics....
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2009 11:24:48 GMT
Hi Alan,
Many thanks for your kind remarks. You've raised a few interesting points which merit some immediate feedback.
Firstly, getting the right sound (or one which would satisfy most of us) certainly does not require a £5000 Oasis special. I have one of these guitars and, although it is a magnificent instrument and does give a great sound I do not believe that success in what we are seeking to achieve is necessarily linked to that guitar. It is not the 'magic solution' that many people seem to think it is.
Firstly, for Hank's earliest tone - on the very tracks you mention - Golden Street, Shane, Giant, Mustang, Shotgun etc - I have always been very happy with what I obtained using the 56 NOS without any modification. The Fender Classic 50's pick-ups fitted on that guitar are very special, and made only for that guitar, and I would recommend sticking with them.
Secondly, and I think Charlie has confirmed this in another post somewhere, the Vox Tonelab does not have an EF86 emulation. I originally tried to achieve 'That Sound' by going down that very route (and I thought I got good results) but it doesn't even begin to compare with the tone I achieved when I bought my AC30 Heritage, plugged into the EF86 channel and then recorded that with an SM57 microphone in front of the amp.
With regard to the pick-up volume position, I found that the sound I was looking for on Mustang, Shane and Giant was achieved with it set at 10, but that was too brittle for Golden Street - that's when I experimented and turned it down to 8 and found that worked better.
In the last few months I have changed my mind totally about strings. I have achieved 'acceptable results' with all weights, 10-46, 11-49 and 12-52 (all with wound thirds) and with several makes - Fender, D'Addario and Gibson - so I am less inclined to think that this is a major contributor to the overall sound. I've heard so many players get a really good sound with so many different makes and weights of strings too. I feel that as much depends on how you play and where you play it as it does on string choice.
Again, in my opinion (for what it's worth) in order of importance, I think you must look to - Amp EF86 channel, Echo, Guitar settings, Playing technique and then strings.
Finally, I am also coming to my own conclusion that a major contribution to 'That Sound' of 1960-61 is down to the particular characteristics of the Meazzi. Have a listen to some of Phil Kelly's samples on YouTube and also Gary Taylor's tracks on the TVS website. Neither are using anything special in the way of guitars or strings, but they both achieve sounds which have all the character of the original recordings and of which any of us would be pleased.
I must try and post some material soon - at the moment I have just done a major upgrade of computers and don't have the recording system set up. As soon as I have, I'll post my attempt at 'Golden Street'.
Regards,
Ian
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Post by asimmd on Nov 23, 2009 11:47:51 GMT
Many thanks for the reply Ian
I was under the impression that the Tonelab DID have an EF86 emulation in the AC15 setting,and your comment sent me to the Tonelab manual,determined to prove you wrong.
Sorry Ian,I Am Wrong,it say's that the AC15's original valve line up had an EF86,not that the emulation had it,DOH !!!!!
OK,Now we are getting somewhere.
Because of where I live,it's extremely difficult to use an amp,so the question is,is there any other way to emulate the EF86,other than using an amp?
Are there any other amps that have the EF86,other than the Heritage.
Are there any amps that have the EF86 that have a D.I out?
I am going to read your posting again and listen to YouTube as suggested,I will stick with my 11/49 D'Addario's.
I look forward to hearing your Golden Street.
Alan
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Post by asimmd on Nov 23, 2009 11:59:18 GMT
Me Again
Just listened to Phil Kelly on Youtube and yes,the sound is there,however.
How much is it down to the Echo? How much it down to the amp?
My echo is a Zoom 2200 with Charlies patches,so If I get an amp with an EF86 circuit,would I get a sound somewhere close to Phil's?
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Nov 23, 2009 13:30:45 GMT
Hi Ian and Alan:
Thanks for the continuing discussion about this tone question. All it give us a more rich know how. Ian: In fact some important tone variations could be found with different pic models. I'm not sure about less guitar volume. But I'll do some experiences with this. This week I will post some samples of Golden Street with these variations.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2009 13:43:29 GMT
Hi again, Alan, Well, addressing your first question - are there any other amps that use the EF86 other than the Heritage Collection - I think that the answer is No - but I'm not an expert in that direction so I'll bow to anyone who knows better. The least expensive option is the AC15 which is still going to make a big hole in your pocket. Doesn't Roger Allcock at Vintage Sounds produce some kind of modification to a standard unit - I'm not sure ? Your second question - how much is down to the amp and how much the echo - is the burning question. There are many schools of thought with very strong opinions about which makes the biggest contribution, but I think BOTH need to be right if you are trying to emulate the original 1960-61 sound almost note for note. If you already use an RFX2200 then, if I were in your shoes, I would be looking at the amp first. But hold on a minute, having said all that - an unmodified Fender CS 56 NOS, with the RFX2200 and a Tonelab should give you a pretty good sound close enough to the original recordings to please most ears. I recall posting a sound file of Apache some years ago using this formula and quite a few people thought it was acceptably close to the original. Frankly, I would be sorely tempted to do a lot more experimentation along the lines I suggested earlier. I have no doubt you'll come up with something that will be most satisfactory without spending any more cash unnecessarily. But if you're still not satisfied, then you had better start selling the family silver !! Cheers Ian
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Post by asimmd on Nov 23, 2009 14:15:07 GMT
Hi Ian,thanks for the reply.
I don't have an amp at the moment,so buying something that will give me what I am after is not going to be a problem. I have watched the demo's on the Vox site,and also watched Phil's demos on Youtube. My question is,does it matter which Heritage,do they all give the desired sound?
Another consideration was the echo,if you had said that the Echo was the thing to go for,then it would be forget it,but the amp is within means,and it's nearly Xmas.
RE Roger Allcock,yes,He does do an EF86 add on,I think I will mail Him and ask the question.
Well,I do have an NOS56 with both the original pickups and a set of 59 pickups,I have been trying different settings,as well as using Charlies Cutting Edge,and Roberto's ARIAB,I am wondering now which way to go,options are more than I thought.
Any more thoughts welcomed.
Alan
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Post by Tone on Nov 23, 2009 15:40:44 GMT
Hi Alan
I've been following this thread with great interest and, without wishing to anticipate Ian's reply, I hope you and he won't mind if I butt in.
It seems to me that as you're starting from scratch, as it were, there is no point in buying a new amp and adding Roger's EF86 mod to it - you might as well get one that has an EF86 channel as part of the spec. In my (and many others incuding, I assume, Roberto's) opinion you couldn't do any better than an AC Heritage because it really does deliver the goods. I love my AC15 to bits!
As regards whether it matters which Heritage model you go for I think Ian is better qualified to answer as I know he has experience of the AC15 and AC30 but I think there's very little diference between them so far as sound is concerned because the pre-amp valves, circuitry and controls are the same . I think that the AC30 would give a slightly fuller sound at higher volumes because of the twin speakers (the AC15 has a single speaker) but at "bedroom" levels I think it would be hard to determine any difference. Of course, the AC30 is more suitable for larger venues than the AC15 (and is also a lot heavier to carry!) but that's not the issue here.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Tony
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Post by Tone on Nov 23, 2009 15:55:31 GMT
Hi Alan
In my post I meant, but forgot, to say that although this discussion is focussing on the use of the EF86 channel to get at the vintage Hank sound, if the brilliance is turned off altogether you get a very good modern Hank tone. Morever, the Top Boost channel gives a great "Burns Era" sound amongst others so it really is a versatile amp.
I have no connection with Vox, honest!
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2009 18:30:08 GMT
Hi again, Alan,
I think Tony made a good intervention there, and his point is very relevant. If you don't have an amp already, then don't bother buying something which is 'make do' and then go and spend money, time and effort getting it modified or improved. If you don't have an amp and really want to progress towards the holy grail of 'That Sound of 1960-61' then I think it is now universally accepted that the best way forward is to buy an AC15 Heritage.
The circuitry of the AC30 and AC15 Heritage amps are the same and for 'bedroom' playing the AC15 will do just fine. I had been used to playing with an AC30 raised on a stand - even just at home - so I must admit that was why I opted for the slightly fuller sound of the twin-speakered AC30. But that's only a matter of personal taste - the tone achieved with both is the same.
With regard to echo, perhaps I have confused you here. Yes, it is important, and if money were no object then I would go for TVS3 or Q20 with EFTP without hesitation. I've heard or tried most of the units available, and I am still to be convinced that there is anything better. But .. if you are just building up your kit and already have an RFX2200 with EFTP, then you should deal with the other issues we have already mentioned first.
If you've got a '56 NOS, then I suggest you leave the original pick-ups on for the time being - there's nothing wrong with them. Abby's hand-wound pick-ups do produce some sensational sounds, but by their very nature each set is individual and who knows what additional variables they introduce.
With respect to the designers of Cutting Edge and ARIAB, I personally found them interesting pieces of kit but, as with the £5000 Oasis guitar, they are not the magic solution to achieving that sound. I would put them aside for the moment; they are only adding confusion into the mix - concentrate on the essentials.
Finally, I think there is a great temptation to become totally absorbed in the technicalities of the equipment and forget about the playing. Hank's sound is as much about his playing style and methods as it is about kit. Give some time to thinking about how you play the numbers as well as about what you play them on.
Good luck,
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 23, 2009 18:52:47 GMT
Hi Ian, The Cutting Edge was designed mainly for use with amps that did not already have the sound built in like the old AC15 with brilliance switch and the newer Heritage models. The Cutting Edge cuts similar frequencies to that brilliance switch, but was actually more of a replica of the filter in the tremolo circuit of the first AC15 of 1959. Regards, Charlie
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Post by asimmd on Nov 23, 2009 19:43:50 GMT
I must apologise to Roberto for hijacking His thread,It all gets so interesting I just get carried away,sorry.
Can anyone who has one of the Vox Heritage amps please post a sound sample.It doesn't have to be a full tune,just to demo the sound it produces.
Thanks
Alan
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