|
Post by betowelch on Nov 29, 2009 1:24:03 GMT
Hi Charlie:
Ok Charlie. It was the first time that I used the Ampworks. The Ampworks I used after the MS and at the end of effect chain. The idea was to use the Ampworks as a tone modulator. The settings on it it was:
Amp sim: AC15 Cabinet sim: 112Vox Effect: Delay Effect Depth: 9:30 o'clock Gain: 10:00 o'clock Treble: 12:00 o'clock Middle: 15:00 'oclock Bass: 14:00 o'clock Volume: 14:00 o'clock
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 29, 2009 2:27:39 GMT
Hi Roberto, So it was a delay effect. I would not use that and would have set the depth to the minimum setting, if the effect itself could not have been disabled. The delay is just adding a much more complicated pattern to the echo than was on the original. If you had temporarily bypassed the Magicstomp echo effect you would have been able to hear exactly what this delay was doing. Some players do add an extra delay but in this case it is changing the echo effect from what it should be. The rest of the settings are a good idea. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 29, 2009 6:47:35 GMT
Hi Charlie:
I think that when we finish this tone searching I will change the tune's name for...."Find Me a Golden Tone" ;D ;D ;D
OK. I understood what you're explain me about the double delay effect. It's exactly for that reason that I set it at a very lower value. I didn't set it to a zero value (as you're recommending me) since I think that in the original tone it seams that has "more echo" than MS U13 patch can give me. That's why I'd increased the MS feedback in the other test. I will run another recording setting as you are now recommending me, with lower (or zero) delay in Ampworks using it just only for changing the treble/middle and bass settings.
Do you have some suggestion about the settings of treble/middle/bass knobs or do you think that mine settings was good enough?
A last question: Imho the original tone has more echo than U13. And this could be not exactly just more echo but that additional distortion and compression effect that you explain to Tony. I can give more compression through my Boss CS-2 (it's set at 50%) but I don't have idea how to add some just a little distortion.... This don't could be improve in MS U13 patch through changing some drive parameters or it will better to use another effect pedal, like 508 or G2 (that I have) with a minimal distortion?
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by asimmd on Nov 29, 2009 10:01:41 GMT
Hi Roberto
The sound is very pleasing and the overall tone is very close to the original,with one exception,,,,,,it's too clean,too smooth,it needs to be roughed up.
As I said in an earlier post,my Wife has ordered a 15watt Heritage for me,and hopefully I should have it in 7/10 day's.
Maybe then I will appreciate more what problems you are having.
Not heard of Ampworks.
Alan
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 29, 2009 11:34:09 GMT
Hi Alan: I'm glad that you bought a Heritage like mine. It's a great amp and I'm sure that you will enjoy it a lot. Thanks also for your comments about this my last recording revision where I added some Ampworks tone modulation. I know that I'm more closer to that mysterious tone. But let me explain an important point of view: Imho this isn't a problem of my gear or my tremolo. This a tone problem that has some difficult to reach.Maybe I was the only one member that has opened this question.... I have more than 30 different recording (from Shadows community sites) of this tune and, although all of then are very well played, all of then (imho) are tone offset ....... And as I could note, the only one that reach the closer tone as the original was Getab from France Shadows site. You can listen him and check this in Youtube. You can play another early Shadow's tunes and if you have the main gear (strat + Vox amp EF86 based + MS or Q2 or Q20 with Charlie's patches) you will can emulate a very very closer tone and echo. But, imho, this isn't possible in "Golden Street"........ That's the question Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by asimmd on Nov 29, 2009 13:25:20 GMT
I have listened to Getab and very impressive it is,all done with a rack mounted unit of some description,bet it's an EF86 emulation of some sort as I can't imagine anyone getting that sound without that. I have asked on the French website what He uses to get the sound but,He jealously guards the secret and won't tell anyone,Mmmmmm makes you wonder.
Alan
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 29, 2009 16:03:07 GMT
|
|
|
Post by asimmd on Nov 29, 2009 16:24:35 GMT
OK,Here we go.
Roberto,I have just listened to the original Shadows Track and the most obvious difference is that your choice of echo is not correct.
If you listen to the original,there is very little noticeable echo,and I think your echo is masking the sound of your guitar.
Which echo do you use?
When I play this tune,I use echo patch 11 on the zoom 2200,try to find one that is not so pronounced,try a few until you find one that is better. Never mind about which patch is recommended for the tune,choose one that you think is suitable.
I will be happy to collaborate with you when my AC15 arrives,I will probably be asking you which settings to use.
Alan,fingers crossed.
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 29, 2009 16:30:10 GMT
Hi Alan:
Thanks for your reply. In this recording I used Yamanha MS with U13 Charlie patch and middle pickup (according his original recommendation in his Manual). I will check with others patches....and I will let you know about it...
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 29, 2009 18:52:54 GMT
Hi Roberto, There is plenty of echo, in fact on these recordings with the Toneworks EQ added, there is too much echo, as Alan said. Test 15 (and 14) sounds OK except for too much echo. Test 12 didn't improve the sound, all it did as far as I can hear is to make the guitar quieter. The higher compression from test 13 seemed to work quite well. Part of the reason you are running round in circles is because you are trying things that I don't think are really necessary. Try doing something like test 13 again, but turn the echo level a little lower on the Magicstomp. You are thinking that there isn't enough echo because you are not using the tremolo arm to the maximum potential for this tune and you have not taken note of my description of the tremolo arm use on the very first note. I think you should try playing along with the original recording of The Shadows and perfect that technique as much as possible. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by franz on Nov 30, 2009 0:55:39 GMT
Hi, guys. This is a very interesting thread for me because the problem I have always had is in reproducing the thick and creamy record tones of Golden Street in particular, on the treble strings. This also applies to much of the early Shadows recordings. It is quite possible to get very close to the lower string sound but then the tone from the E and B strings is too trebly or, if you like, too "twangy" I have listened to the Phil kelly stuff on You tube and to the sample tracks and they sound to have top end on them not apparent from the records. (Admittedly, I am listening to my mono LPs from the early 60s.)I have never come across anybody who is able to nail Golden Street and others in the higher octaves. No amount of cut and treble and bass controls at zero will cure this. There does seems to be a fixation,though, with the sound of the lower strings. Amps aside and at the risk of becoming unpopular, I think that the guitar has something to do with it. I have an original 62 Strat (rosewood board of course) which I have had for 44 years so i know it's pretty well original and it has a more mellow sound than recent instruments. (Some people have said they are prepared to kill for it!) The pickup output is also noticeably lower. I know this might just be old age(the guitar not me) but I don't think it has altered over the years much. I use a Fender extra heavy pick to hit the strings quite hard and at a slight angle from below. This makes a big difference to the amount of attack on the lower strings, D'Addario 115Ws, so I can get quite close to the original sounds on the bottom strings even with a Tonelab set to Ac15 and through the Top Boost channel of my AC30TB with controls off and about 3/4 cut (and EFTP) If this gets better with one of Roger Allcocks EF86 units which is waiting for me at the Post Office, the Holy Grail will be only a whisker away. But it probably won't help the treble which I am more and more convinced must be a Norrie Paramore special. I don't know if anyone has any other ideas about the higher registers. An afterthought- were nickel wound strings available in 1960/1 or were they all steel because this would almost certainly make some difference-I can't remember!!
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 30, 2009 3:34:36 GMT
Hi Franz, I thought the same about it being a rosewood board Strat until it was pointed out that it was recorded earlier than Filleted Plaice which has a much brighter sound. I am tending to think that the studio controlled the treble with high EQ cut at the desk, the frequency was probably 10KHz, which I think would warm up the high notes quite well without affecting the low notes too much. I don't think this would have been done for control of the sound, more likely for control of noise. Electric guitar strings were usually if not always nickel wound on steel cores, the plain strings were steel, but not sure which grades of steel were best. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by asimmd on Nov 30, 2009 9:11:42 GMT
Hi Franz
Interesting post,and I for one would be interested in knowing your thoughts on Roger's EF86 add on when you fit it.
I think it has long been forgotten that Hank didn't just turn up at the studio - plug in and record,and the stuff came out as we hear it on record.
There were men in white coats behind the scenes,adjusting things,adding and taking away and generally tweaking the sound until someone would say,that's it,that will do.
We can't possibly know what equipment was used on what recording,everything we do will only come near to an original,never totally copying it,,,,,,but it's fun trying.
I think each of us secretly hopes that one day we will turn our equipment on and That Sound will magically appear in the speakers......dream on.
When the day dawns when it's not fun,that's the day to pack it up.
Alan
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 30, 2009 13:26:09 GMT
Hi Charlie/ Alan / Tony and All: Well not easy to give up ....... I reviewed some adjustments in EQ, I adjusted a better compression and follow the advice of some of the suggestions given by you as a little decreasing the level of echo and adding a little more tremolo arm work ..... and last night I recorded this new as " Find Me a Golden Tone". I think I got a bit closer ....... and I liked a little more .... I'm beginning to feel at peace with myself and this "Golden Tone "..... I hope you like ......... www.4shared.com/file/162693625/1d4368c0/Find_Me_a_Golden_Street__Rober.htmlAlan: I also check with U11 patch....but this one upper I back again to the U13 patch PS-How successful this thread ... Almost 1000 visits! Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 30, 2009 13:48:00 GMT
Hi Roberto, It's getting very close. The sound is fine, there is still enough echo, maybe even a bit less echo would still work well. You just need to use the tremolo more, especially at the end of each phrase, as I noticed that you did not do that all the time. The ending sounded good with the tremolo arm on the last note but you need to operate the arm for a longer time until the note has faded away. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by Tone on Nov 30, 2009 13:54:42 GMT
Hi All
I haven't been able to catch up on this thread for the last couple of days and I see there's a lot been going on.
Roberto - I can well understand that you must have been very frustrated after all your experiments which still haven't produced the desired result. If it's any consolation, even though you're still not quite there as regards finding that elusive missing factor, the samples you have posted all sound very good and most of us would be very happy with them. Your playing is excellent too!
Franz made some very interesting points about it being easier to nail the sound on the lower strings than the upper. This has also been my experience and no amount of fiddling with EQ on the amp or at the desk has helped. In fact, when I've finished the adjustments I've found that the sound is less authentic than the one I've started with.
I still think that the missing ingredient, or the major one, is that suggested by Charlie i.e. compression and distortion on the Echomatic 2. I've checked out Paul Rossiter's excellent history of the Shads' amps and echo units and it seems that it was in use from early 1961 to late 1963 and, in fact, Paul suggests that "Golden Street" was the first track recorded with it. What I find odd, though, is that given those dates you would expect to find a similar sound on other tracks recorded in that period, e.g. the "Out of the Shadows" album but I can't think of one.
I also looked at the tape saturation device drawn to our attention by Erik. Although I understood only about one word in 20 of the article I don't think it would be suitable for our purposes because I think it would apply saturation to the whole signal and not just the echoes which is what I think Charlie was saying - have I got that right, Charlie?
So the search continues. I must admit that, having previously dismissed the idea of a TVS3 on the grounds of cost my thoughts have started turning again towards one but I don't think Santa would be that good to me!
Cheers.
Tony
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 30, 2009 14:01:58 GMT
Hi Tony, You are right, adding a compression/distortion to the whole guitar signal would distort the dry sound, and do comparatively little to the echo sound. Such an effect needs adding to the echo signal alone, but that is not so easy to do. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 30, 2009 14:21:40 GMT
Hi Charlie, Tony and All: Charlie and Tony: Thanks for your comments that now I'm more closer. It's no easy tone to find....and (imho) what could be in fault isn't more tremolo arm effort...but I'll try to put more. I'm agree with Tony: What is missing it's some another effect....that could be that compression and distortion of the Echomatic 2. But anyway Charlie I'll to record another trials with your suggestions, i. e. less echo and more tremolo arm effort.... Charlie: This additional compression and distortion typical of Echomatic 2 could be improve in a special patch for MS, Q2 etc??? Franz: I'm agree with you about the lower string tone i this tune. It needs to use the pick just a little in angle I think this whole discussion has been good for those who want a tone closer to the original. Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 30, 2009 14:35:12 GMT
Hi Roberto, The only practical way to add the compression/distortion would be to split the signal so that the dry signal is routed separately from the echo signal, then a suitable effect could be connected before the echo unit, the echo unit set so that it produces no dry sound, then mix the dry and echo output signals together with a suitable simple mixer. I do already have some distortion effect with some of the patches in my latest 79 Q2 programs but this is really only very effective when louder notes are played. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 30, 2009 16:58:06 GMT
Hi Roberto, It's getting very close. The sound is fine, there is still enough echo, maybe even a bit less echo would still work well................................................... .............................................. Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie: A just very simple question: How I could to reduce the echo effect on MS? I suppose that it will could be done through the 3rd. knob of front panel that it's the feedback knob. In this my last recording I had reduce it to about 9'o clock. I'm not at home now...but it's seams that there is the lowest feedback value available in U13 patch. If for to reduce this echo the procedure that I did it's the correct one, then I think that I would need to migrate to another lowest echo patch than the U13. Do you have some recommendation? Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Nov 30, 2009 17:50:18 GMT
Hi Roberto, I think the first knob controls the echo level, the third knob controls the feedback (echo length). You can experiment with both. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Nov 30, 2009 19:37:41 GMT
Hi Charlie:
OK. I will check this 1st. knob. Thanks. Let me ask you another question. I want to go closer to that "Gold Tone" and so this recording made isn't a finished job for me. I want to mixing it and changing some frequencies where it will be needed. According what I heard, I think that I will need to reduce bass frequencies and set better the mids... But I'm not sure about this as this is a very complicated thing to my few bits in my brain......But I want to try...... As now I have "new toys" (Reaper and Adobe Audition) now I have some VST plugins that I could change this frequency spectrum. I wish to do this to go learning this mixing techniques.
Do you have some recommendation about where I should boost it and where I should lower it?
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by asimmd on Nov 30, 2009 19:45:29 GMT
The compression discussion is interesting,one of my first questions was going to be when my AC15 arrives,how do I connect it up?.
Now then,I do have a seperate echo (Zoom 2200)and a seperate compressor (Behringer Composer Pro),so maybe I would be able to try the compress the echo signal before it goes to the amp?Would this equip be good enough?
The TVS is looking tempting but the price is horrendous just to achieve a certain sound,I often wish I knew a bit more about electronics,I am sure their must be a way to make a descent echo,it just needs someone with time and know how.
Charlie,are their any new machines that look promising?
Alan
|
|
|
Post by asimmd on Nov 30, 2009 20:02:00 GMT
Rooting round the well known auction site,I found this.
Anyone know if it's suitable for Shads stuff?
Here's the number 290301889292
Alan
|
|
|
Post by Tone on Nov 30, 2009 20:30:05 GMT
Hi Alan
You connect up your AC15 by sticking the thick black cable with the 3 prongs on the end into the flat plate with 3 corresponding holes which you should have on the wall of your room and then switch on! ;D
Seriously, though, you need to be careful with compression as it can easily be overdone. Roberto used it on one of his test recordings and it was quite noticeable whereas it should be quite subtle. Moreover, in the context of finding the right sound for "Golden Street" Charlie mentioned that the compression is only on the echo or "wet" part of the signal but if you put a compressor in the signal chain it will affect the whole signal. Charlie did describe in his post earlier this afternoon how you could achieve compression on the wet signal only (but what about distortion?) and I'm not sure if all these alterations would leave the basic tone unaffected. Finally, whatever you play around with, you would still need just a mono signal coming into the amp channel input.
Cheers.
Tony
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 1, 2009 0:32:31 GMT
Hi Roberto, I think the basic tone you are getting is very good so I am not sure how to improve it without seeing the response of the lead guitar track. Hi Alan, For a compressor to do anything useful to the echo signal alone it needs to be connected before the echo, and the dry signal must not be present at the output of the echo unit. The dry signal would have to be routed separately, perhaps with a mixer. I am not aware of anything new that would be of interest to me. I put the the well known auction site number into the well known auction site and it came up with nothing. Hi Tony, Distortion could be put in the same chain as the compressor. It would probably be better to have distortion first, then the compressor, then the echo unit. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by betowelch on Dec 1, 2009 0:52:35 GMT
Hi Charlie and All: I following your recommendations, setting an U13 with lower echo and more effect in tremolo arm. Otherwise I add a new EQ with lower bass (mainly) and a little more compression (in Ampworks). I used again my new guitar (that with hard tremolo....) So I eat some vitamins and a lot of spinach like Popeye.... ;D ;D ;D ;D). It has a cleaner sound.... and leave me more stronger!!!!!!! Also I changed my usual pick to another for searching a more mellow sound (Jim Dunlop 1,00 mm) I did a new recording that's it's better. Here's a comparative sample of first verse. The first part it's my new recording and the second part it's the original. I'm more closer now. I think that the main difference (besides my poor fingers comparing with Hank ones..... ..) it's the mellow tone that it's present in the original. Some suggestions? www.4shared.com/file/163085646/ba350039/Comparativo_Som_FMAGS.htmlPS: I think that I'm going to write a Tutorial for "Find Me a Golden Tone" Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
|
|
|
Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 1, 2009 3:12:11 GMT
Hi Roberto, I'm not sure which I like the best. There are some things I like about the sound of the older second half, it seems to sound closer to the original but I have not compared directly with the original Shadows recording. You seem to be saying that the new version (first half) is more mellow. I think the second half is more mellow. Because of this, I am not sure what you are asking advice about. Regards, Charlie
|
|
|
Post by bill on Dec 1, 2009 8:02:08 GMT
Hi Alan (and Charlie), The unit in the link is this one - www.bluecoconutunity.com/although I think this should be a separate thread.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 8:25:55 GMT
Hi,
I've not looked at this thread for a couple of days now and I am surprised it's still going. It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere but simply going round in circles. I wonder whether Roberto is really benefiting from the responses he has been getting or whether the whole issue has become confused.
At the end of the day, let's be honest and practical, it's impossible to replicate original recordings note for note. There are too many variables - from the studio conditions, the recording equipment, etc, etc, right down to the state of the strings on Hank's guitar on the day.
What you need to do is achieve a good sound with which you are pleased, then play the track with feeling, sensitivity and for your own enjoyment. Repeating the same selected phrases over and over again in one track and adding effects to achieve a perfect match, even if you succeed, does not mean that it's going to be right for other tracks.
Even the very best of today's performers - Phil Kelly, Gary Taylor (TVS) and Gege (on the French site) seek only to produce the 'ambience and feeling' of the original recordings. They do not seek to replicate note for note. If you listen to either Phil or Garry, and then look at the equipment they are using, then you will see that no special 'work' has been done on the recordings. They've just used a guitar, amp, effects unit, microphone and stock video recorder and played it straight. No messing .. no fiddling .. no twiddling .. no special effects.
For 'Golden Street', you will get a great sound using the middle pick-up on a Maple necked Strat (a good Strat with 57/62 pick-ups would do, but a 56 NOS is best), an AC15 or AC30 Heritage played through Channel 1 with Brillance set to 2 and a good echo unit such as an RFX2000/Q2/Q20. Record that with a Shure SM57 and you'll get as sound that's extremely acceptable to most ears.
Minor variations in tone to suit the ear can be achieved using the 'cut' on the amp, adjusting the volume and tone slightly on the guitar or by using different strings, pick weights, picking position and picking method.
Don't take any notice of what Hank does on stage today - he recorded this 50 years ago in a studio, and who knows what he got up to way back then - we were all learning, experimenting and finding our own way. Who knows what settings he used !!
It's not rocket science, and it doesn't require a plethora of effects, gadgets and other complications. Sometimes everything gets far too complicated and we loose sight of what we really want to achieve. Play from the heart and use your own ears for guidance. At the end of the day it's your sound, and it's your own opinion that matters.
Cheers,
Ian
|
|