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Post by betowelch on Dec 1, 2009 8:51:33 GMT
Hi Roberto, I'm not sure which I like the best. There are some things I like about the sound of the older second half, it seems to sound closer to the original but I have not compared directly with the original Shadows recording. You seem to be saying that the new version (first half) is more mellow. I think the second half is more mellow. Because of this, I am not sure what you are asking advice about. Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie: Thanks for your reply. Sorry I didn't understood what do you want to tell me. When you said "older second half" are you refering to that posted in my message 73? or that now posted in 86 message? In this new one sample (message 86) the first part it's my EQ corrected version and the second half of this sample it's the original from Shadows.... Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by asimmd on Dec 1, 2009 9:52:31 GMT
bill3, Thanks for clarifying that,I have now started a seperate thread.
Alan
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Post by asimmd on Dec 1, 2009 9:58:26 GMT
Hi Roberto
Well the new recording is the best yet but, I am still not understanding why,even when you play them back to back you still have far too much echo,is it not possible to turn the echo down?
The original recording has nowhere near as much echo as yours,if you lower the echo,you will be as close as you are going to get.
Well done
Alan
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Post by betowelch on Dec 1, 2009 12:14:58 GMT
Hi Alan:
Thanks for your reply. I already had decreased the echo level in U13 patch, but it seems that wasn't enough. I'm agree with you. I must lower it more or find another lower echo patch. I'm going step per step getting each time more closer...... This is has been a nice research ....
Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 1, 2009 15:25:10 GMT
Hi Roberto, I genuinely thought that the second half of the file link in your message 86 was your previous attempt. I did not check it against your previous files. The first half of your new file sounds brighter than the Shadows original. To get closer to the original I think you must reduce the treble some more (with cut on the amp or the other EQ), with that guitar. And also reduce the echo level with knob 1 on the Magicstomp. The patch is as close as it needs to be except for the echo level. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 1, 2009 15:46:38 GMT
Hi Charlie:
Thanks for your reply. In fact the first part of message 86 sample was mine own recording while the second part was the original from Shadows. Joining the 2 parts of recordings, one after the other, it's an easier way to understand the sound differences. This was a nice suggestion and collaboration from Getab (Shadows French site). OK I will improve these new settings, with more lower echo level and less treble. With all these I think that I'm completing this tone research and I hope that all this could be helpfully for other members who want a more closer tone emulation in this tune.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by abstamaria on Dec 2, 2009 14:20:52 GMT
This has been a most interesting (and, for me, instructive) thread. Thank you all for the effort and the time. Very enjoyable.
Regards from Manila,
Andy
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Post by betowelch on Dec 2, 2009 14:49:57 GMT
Hi Charlie, Andy and All:
Charlie: Yesterday night I had run a first trial according your recommendations (less echo and less treble). With U13 patch and minimum echo level it's still with a high value. So I changed to U08 and I think that with this patch it will be good. The sound was better and still more closer to original. In the next days I will run with various and different settings of treble and echo trying to go the closest possible with my gear. I hope that until next Saturday I could post the final revision of this tune. The variables are a lot of then as I'm adding also an amp simulator (Ampworks) before my amp. With it I think that I have a more colored of sound and fine adjusting of treble/middle and bass. I saved all these fine adjusting in a Project Detail file to be available for who wants to know what was the settings on it.
Andy: Thanks for your comments and I enjoy to know that for you this thread was instructive.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 2, 2009 17:05:37 GMT
Hi Roberto, I think the echo level, controlled with knob 1, should be able to be set to any amount of echo down to zero. As far as I remember, the middle knob is for dry level, and knob 3 is for feedback. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 4, 2009 1:33:13 GMT
Hi Charlie and All: Well ... I am afraid that I can not improve the tone because I haven't still experience enough in mixing and plugins, etc, etc. Certainly it could better recorded and better equalizated...but I'm learning ....slowly (you know....my brain has only 2 bits)...but learning... In fact I can't go closer to the original tone. Maybe some day with more learning about... Here's: www.4shared.com/file/165072714/54d96535/Find_Me_a_Golden_Street__Rober.htmlCheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 4, 2009 2:05:39 GMT
Hi Roberto, I am sorry to have to say, but I must say it so that you understand why I think you are tackling this in the wrong way, this is the worst sound of all your files. There is not enough treble now, and there is far too much compression. I don't know where this compression is coming from and I don't know what you have done to decrease the treble but whatever it was, it has spoiled the mid and upper mids. It seems to me that you are trying to use technology for technology's sake, to try to improve the sound, when it probably is not necessary. You should just concentrate on the playing for now. For just one example, you have not taken any notice of what I said about using your tremolo arm at the end of the tune. Or perhaps you have not recorded this with a new take and you are trying to improve the sound of what you already recorded before. I think the best thing to do is to leave this idea for a while, and meanwhile just keep studying the original recording from time to time to find out more about how Hank plays it. You need to study the tremolo arm technique, and also concentrate on the firm picking attack to get the mids to pop when you play. I do this by using a suitable pick for the gauge of strings I use, and gripping the pick quite firmly to give the notes more body. I am certain that the equipment you have can do it, going by what I have heard from your earlier files. Please try to play along with the original record a few times rather than rely on your memory of how it should be played, and then I think you will soon find that when you are closer to the way it was originally played, you will be able to do a good recording of it. In the meantime, please let me know if knob 1 of your Magicstomp can reduce the echo amount to zero, because there seems to be a problem here. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 4, 2009 7:56:00 GMT
Hi Charlie:
Thanks for your reply......Well... Very probably my trial to use a frequency plugin in Audacity was not a good idea and tone was not good. In the other samples I didn't use it....I'm recording with Audacity as by now I don't know how to use the Reaper...it's very complicated by now.... I confess that in this trial I was more concentrate with the tone that with the tremolo arm. The MS knob 1 was set in zero....and there is a lot of echo....I don't understand why..... Otherwise I think that for my guitar the combination of U13 patch with middle pickup it's no working good (for this tone) and I should to use another patch... I had tried U11 and U08 but I'm not satisfied.... Also I'm using (as auxiliary tone adjusting) the Ampworks (together with the Heritage) as I think that I could to set a more fine tone adjusting....But it possible that works against ... In fact this time I used a higher compression value and treble I set (in Ampworks) it at very lower value..
I'll to continue with this as I prefer to correct now what could be done in a wrong way.
I think that I must use a different patch, turn off the Ampworks and try to find a tone solution only with Cut Control.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 8:52:24 GMT
Roberto, I am sorry, but I must say that I think Charlie is right in his last posting. I think you are getting far too involved with the technology and losing the feel for the sound and the number. I'd like to draw your attention back to my response at post 89 (to which I didn't get any response) and emphasise what I said there. The more and more you introduce different patches, different EQ and effects and the more you change, the more confused the whole thing becomes. Believe me .. I've been there and I have the 'T' shirt. As I said before, you will never match the original track note for note .. there are too many variables which can never be replicated even if we were able to 'time-travel' and go back 50 years. Find yourself a set of parameters which give an overall good sound and general ambience of the original track and leave it there. There comes a time when obsession with the sound begins to overtake the actual playing of the music itself. And which is more important - I suggest it's the music. Cheers, Ian
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Post by asimmd on Dec 4, 2009 9:37:52 GMT
Hi Roberto
Sorry to say that as far as the tone goes I have to agree with Charlie,you have gone backwards in your quest to find that elusive sound.What I can't understand is that you can't hear that for yourself. If you compare this latest recording with the others you have done,it sounds muffled and far too echoey.
Enough,Ian is right when He say's we will never replicate Hanks sound,all anyone of us can hope for is a sound which is as close as possible. This dosen't just apply to Hanks recordings,If I were to record a tune then ask someone to copy it,they would only be able to get close,even if they have the same gear.
Roberto,go back to basics,put all the extra equipment away and start again with the Guitar - Amp and echo. And just a point that no-one has mentioned,how do you know it's not the pickups on your guitar that can't reproduce the sound,somany variables,so little time.
Why not try a different tune from the same era and see how close you can get,maybe Theme From Shane/Giant.
Sorry if this seems like a negative comment,hopefully when I get my AC15 Heritage next week,I can post something that will give you something to compare your recordings with,the only difference will be the guitar and pickups.
Alan
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 4, 2009 11:38:14 GMT
Hi Roberto, I want you to try selecting the Magicstomp patch U13 that I originally recommended, then turn knob 1 all the way up and then all the way down to see if the echo level completely disappears. If it does not, there is either something wrong with the knob or the programs are not correctly installed. You must not touch the other 2 knobs 2 and 3 when doing this test. If you do touch them, select a different patch and then the correct one and start the test again. Please let me know, and do not make any more recordings until we know that your Magicstomp is working properly. Also, Alan has brought up a relevent point that I had also considered earlier, I am not sure that the pickups on either of your guitars are the best choice for this sound. I think you should also have the tremolo correctly set up on your other Strat, the one with Fralins and then concentrate on using that one because it seems to me that you were getting better results with that guitar, except for the tremolo problem. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 4, 2009 12:21:50 GMT
Hi Charlie / Ian and Alan:
Absolutely I'm agree with all you. I had added a lot of auxiliary devices (hardware and software) trying to get closer to the right tone I ended up drifting further from it. So sorry about it..... It's time to go back........ to the simple way
Alan: After used the plugins I didn't check right and comparing with my others samples and I suppose that I was walking go on.... Sorry about!
I decided go back to the basis and take off the Ampworks from the effect chain and forget the plugins....... I check right now just only with my basic gear and another patch with less echo as U08 and adjusting just only with Cut Control. Tone it's better now, or at least I'm back to my original and I'll need just to setting it a little better to go more closer.
Just only remembering I want to explain that this thread was born by the fact that (imho) the U13 patch in MS and middle pickup give a very different tone. And this tone difference isn't so evident or pronounced with the others tunes using the excellent Charlie's patches. Therefore, isn't the case of trying to play another tunes from the same Shadows CD........ I'm convince that there is a problem with the FMAGS tone to be emulated with these simple echo devices (as Quadraverb/MS/Zoom, etc), problem that doesn't exist with the most other tunes.
And I trying to get a better result I ended up getting the wrong ones ... This is called the technique of trial and error .......
I'm sure that at the end I will find these better settings and all this work will not in vain Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 4, 2009 12:27:18 GMT
Hello Roberto, Please do the test with knob 1. This is the first trial that must be done, and hopefully there will be no error! If we can establish that knob 1 is working properly, and that you understand how to use it, then we can perhaps be getting a better result. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Tone on Dec 4, 2009 13:05:52 GMT
Hi Roberto
I'm afraid I have to agree with the comments from Charlie, Ian and Alan about your latest sample.
I'd like to make another suggestion that isn't related to pickups, echoes, tremolo, playing technique etc. If you get involved in an intense playing and recording session your ears and brain can suffer from overload and eventually affect your perception of the sound you're playing or have recorded. I've experienced this myself and I'm sure others have, too - at the end of a heavy session I've thought I've achieved the sound I was looking for but when I've gone back to it after a break of a few hours or the next day with fresh ears and brain the sound or recording is totally different.
So, I suggest that you give yourself a break after you've finished recording a piece and then go back to it. I think there may have been a good example of what I'm talking about in that posting where you played the first verse of "Golden Street" followed by the Shads original recording. You obviously thought the sound was close but to anyone listening for the first time the samples were completely different.
And don't forget what Charlie said about listening frequently to the original record because the sound of it you carry in your head can be quite different.
Please don't think I'm being unduly harsh. As I said in an earlier post, your sound and playing are good and I think we've all learned something from this thread. I know I have.
And don't drive yourself mad with frustration by trying to get the "Holy Grail" Some tunes are, I think, much harder to nail than others and I think "Golden Street" is one of them. I've been having similar problems with "Sleepwalk" but after taking on board some of the comments posted here I've decided not to let it bother me. On the other hand, I tried "Some are Lonely" for the first time ever yesterday and, to my ears, I got the sound almost immediately which perhaps confirms the point I'm making.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by betowelch on Dec 4, 2009 22:01:14 GMT
Hello Roberto, Please do the test with knob 1. This is the first trial that must be done, and hopefully there will be no error! If we can establish that knob 1 is working properly, and that you understand how to use it, then we can perhaps be getting a better result. Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie and Tony: Thanks for your replay and comments. It's time to forget all what was done and going back to my original sound without any others auxiliary devices Charlie: Well..the knob 1 works fine. Now I knew that just after when you change its setting there is not any change. So I could change the echo level in U13 patch to a lower value. (I set it at 5.6). I run another sample with this lower echo and without Ampworks and nothing of plugins...Just MS + Boss CS-2 and Heritage with Cut at 12 0'clock. www.4shared.com/file/165640351/7c26ad24/FMAGS__Roberto__Trial_4-12-09.htmlHere the same trial only with the lead, in case of you want how are the frequency spectrum: www.4shared.com/file/165642383/8d8f7ace/FMAGS__Roberto__Trial_4-12-09_.htmlI'm sure that emulate this tone will be impossible but I wish to go as closer as my Yamaha MS and a Vox Heritage could go. If this my new trial (or others that could be improve) will the best that my gear could give me I will be satisfied. About the question of tremolo arm in the my new guitar, I can say that it was the maximum that I could get with this very strong unit (and 0.12 strings...). Another detail it's that (I noted now with lower echo) it's that my G string (wounded) has a weak sound. Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 5, 2009 2:26:37 GMT
Hi Roberto, OK, I am glad to know that knob 1 is working. The echo level is certainly reduced enough, in fact it might now be too little echo, but it is not far out. I feel that the sound is close enough and any real difference is in the playing. I am more concerned about your tremolo. How many tremolo springs are fitted? What colour are these springs, black or silver? And is the bridge plate flat to the body, or almost flat to the body? Or is it too high from the body? Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 5, 2009 9:53:38 GMT
Hi Roberto, OK, I am glad to know that knob 1 is working. The echo level is certainly reduced enough, in fact it might now be too little echo, but it is not far out. I feel that the sound is close enough and any real difference is in the playing. I am more concerned about your tremolo. How many tremolo springs are fitted? What color are these springs, black or silver? And is the bridge plate flat to the body, or almost flat to the body? Or is it too high from the body? Regards, Charlie Hi Charlie: Well..at least good news...The tone is something there again..... I could also check it just with a little more echo. All the hardware of this my new guitar came from Bill Callaham. It's fitted with 4 springs. Two silver (original) and two bronze color. The bronze color aren't that originals that came from Callaham and it was used by my luthier trying to find a more softer tremolo arm since that was a big problem since the first day..... When he finished the adjusting on it, the tremolo system came floating but more stronger than now and impossible to use it. Then he used a lower strong springs trying to solve this but still was a problem. So now it's not floating and plate it's complete flat to the body without any space between both to possibility me use the tremolo in both directions. In fact my another and older guitar also has the bridge plate flat with the body (not floating), although it has a softer tremolo arm even with heavier springs (0.13) on it. I know that in some end notes in this tune (FMAGS) I need some up tremolo... I'm thinking to visit my luthier today to try to find a solution to this very strong tremolo and to fit it not flat to the body. Probably I will to need change the strings for a set less strong than 0.12 that I'm using on it. Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by grip on Dec 5, 2009 10:38:51 GMT
Hi Roberto,
I've been following this thread with great interest and admire your determination to get this one "just right". With regards to your tremolo being too stiff, have you considered using a 2 pivot point tremolo, I have a strat with this system on and 1 with the standard 6 screw and the tremolo is far lighter to use on the 2 pivot system with the same set up.
Kind regards,
grip
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Post by betowelch on Dec 5, 2009 11:30:52 GMT
Hi Grip:
Thanks for you are following this "tone-discussion" and for me this is a special case question since I always love play this tune but also always I was unsatisfied with such tone deviation from the original. Certainly at the end of all this work and discussion we will have a more rich informations about how to be closer at this mysterious tone.
About the tremolo question, you are giving me a very interesting information. I have 2 guitar. One the older one with 2 pivot bridge and the new one (from Callaham) with 6 screws pivots. The older one has a tremolo arm possible to be used it ......but the new one with 6 screws....it's a lot hard.... So it's very possible that this different supported bridge system could be the main responsible for have a softer or less softer tremolo arm.Thanks for this informations.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by betowelch on Dec 5, 2009 13:07:03 GMT
Hi Roberto I'm afraid I have to agree with the comments from Charlie, Ian and Alan about your latest sample. I'd like to make another suggestion that isn't related to pickups, echoes, tremolo, playing technique etc. If you get involved in an intense playing and recording session your ears and brain can suffer from overload and eventually affect your perception of the sound you're playing or have recorded. I've experienced this myself and I'm sure others have, too - at the end of a heavy session I've thought I've achieved the sound I was looking for but when I've gone back to it after a break of a few hours or the next day with fresh ears and brain the sound or recording is totally different. So, I suggest that you give yourself a break after you've finished recording a piece and then go back to it. I think there may have been a good example of what I'm talking about in that posting where you played the first verse of "Golden Street" followed by the Shads original recording. You obviously thought the sound was close but to anyone listening for the first time the samples were completely different. And don't forget what Charlie said about listening frequently to the original record because the sound of it you carry in your head can be quite different. Please don't think I'm being unduly harsh. As I said in an earlier post, your sound and playing are good and I think we've all learned something from this thread. I know I have. And don't drive yourself mad with frustration by trying to get the "Holy Grail" Some tunes are, I think, much harder to nail than others and I think "Golden Street" is one of them. I've been having similar problems with "Sleepwalk" but after taking on board some of the comments posted here I've decided not to let it bother me. On the other hand, I tried "Some are Lonely" for the first time ever yesterday and, to my ears, I got the sound almost immediately which perhaps confirms the point I'm making. Cheers. Tony Hi Tony: Sorry that I couldn't answer this your message. I'm doing it now. First at all, thanks for your words and for your recommendations. I'm agree that sometimes we need give a time, a break, when there are some problem with a music or with a tone, etc. In fact this works. Suddenly I went to a wrong way adding a lot of auxiliary settings....and with all these, for instance, I found myself lost on the way.............. But I'm now on the road again and as already I mentioned here, since that (imho) of in the case of this tune, it will not possible to emulate a tone so closer as in other tunes, this thread will be an effort to find what could be the most closer tone using the Charlie's patches on a MS or Quadraverb or Zoom echo processors. Certainly all we could learn something more about this nice tune. Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by erikMAMS on Dec 5, 2009 14:31:45 GMT
Absolutely not!
The 6 screw vintage trem is OK. I'll say far better than the 2 point - but that's a matter of personal preference - anyway, if setup correctly both versions can function very well and smooth.
With the Callaham trem you have highest quality parts - it's simply a matter of setting up the tremolo correctly.
You'll probably need only 3 springs. Let me know if you want to adjust the trem yourself - I'd be happy to guide you along, if you are up for it - if you're uncomfortable with it leave it to your luthier.
Erik
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Post by betowelch on Dec 5, 2009 14:56:29 GMT
Absolutely not! The 6 screw vintage trem is OK. I'll say far better than the 2 point - but that's a matter of personal preference - anyway, if setup correctly both versions can function very well and smooth. With the Callaham trem you have highest quality parts - it's simply a matter of setting up the tremolo correctly. You'll probably need only 3 springs. Let me know if you want to adjust the trem yourself - I'd be happy to guide you along, if you are up for it - if you're uncomfortable with it leave it to your luthier. Erik Hi Erik: Thanks for your message. Usually I always done this by myself....but in the case of this new guitar (with Callaham hardware) I used my luthier service to mounting and adjusting all the parts. Thanks for offering me your help to guiding me to solve this trem problem and yes I will accept as I like to do this things. To avoid overlap to the theme of this thread, I ask you to contact me directly by my email for this guiding to a better setting in my Callaham trem. You will find my email in my view profile. Thanks again Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 5, 2009 15:04:34 GMT
Hi Roberto, grip and Erik, I advise that the 6 point tremolo is best. I have used both. When Fender designed the Strat it was designed for use with heavy strings and used 5 springs. My own feeling is that 4 springs are probably the best choice with 12s. If the tremolo spring claw is correctly set it should float properly because the tension will balance. I think the claw has been adjusted too tightly and the screws will need undoing a few turns to correct the balance. The 6 bridge plate screws should also be checked and if necessary, adjusted so that the bridge can freely move. Many people set these screws too tightly. The correct way to check this is to remove the strings from the tuning posts, remove the tremolo springs, and then check the floating action of the bridge through the full possible extent of movement of the tremolo block. I start this procedure by holding the bridge plate flat to the body, and slacken each of the 6 screws to allow the plate to be truly flat to the body without requiring pressure, then tighten each screw in turn until the plate begins to lift from the body, then slacken the screw until the exact point where the bridge plate is flat to the body. After doing this with all 6 screws, I then check that the bridge plate can move freely to its highest possible position, where the tremolo block will freely touch the body. If it will not, I have to slacken each screw a little further until it does. After doing this with all 6 screws, I slacken the middle 4 screws a further 1/8th turn (one half of a quarter turn). Adjusting the bridge plate screws in this way ensures that no undue tension is ever applied to these screws when the tremolo arm is used, no matter how heavily. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 6, 2009 1:12:57 GMT
Hi Charlie:
Thanks for your detailing informations about the tremolo floating setting. I already done it myself and now it's a lot better.
Next week I will back to recording it with this softer tremolo and with a little more echo.
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by erikMAMS on Dec 6, 2009 9:41:58 GMT
Sorry for the late reply - I've been a little busy.
Good instructions from Charlie - on which I fully agree - except I tend to favor only 3 springs even with 12-52 string gauge, but that's just my personal preference.
Glad to hear that you have improved on the trem setup. Let us know if you need further advise on the adjustment.
In addition to the all important floating setup, the angle and position of the trem arm are likewise important for developing a good trem technic and for comfortable playing. This may require some considerations on the arm angle/position as well as the lenght of the arm, and sometimes requires a few mods to the arm itself.
Erik
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 6, 2009 15:23:49 GMT
Hi Erik, The more springs that are used, the better for transferring string energy to the body. It can result in a stronger tone. However, if there are too many springs, it is possible that with extreme movement of the tremolo arm, the springs could become so loose that they could fall off, or lift out of the tremolo block, of course, they should be into the holes as far as they will go. In such a case, the only solution is to remove one spring and readjust the claw to stretch the remaining springs. Regards, Charlie
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