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Post by erikMAMS on Dec 6, 2009 18:00:49 GMT
Hi Charlie I agree on the energy transfering theory, but in real life it's my experience that 3 spring under higher pull works better than 4 springs under low pull tension. Mainly with respect to trem function - smoothness and especially return to pitch - the later I find can be a problem with springs barely stretched - and the trade off on energy transfer it very small, if any.
Erik
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 6, 2009 18:13:01 GMT
Hi Erik, You have a valid point with the tension v. number of springs. Regards, Charlie
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Post by martyn on Dec 7, 2009 23:13:38 GMT
Just to add fuel to the debate, am I not right in thinking the best sound from a valve amp is obtained only when set at quite high volumes? I understood 'volume' was the key in making the valves sing, whereas lower levels meant they're barely ticking over, so to speak, which is why my guitar sounds way better played through club members' AC30s, 15s etc (when we can up the volume levels), than when simply played through my Tonelab into the computer. I'm reasonably pleased with the sounds I get this way but they don't have that special zing I can achieve using the proper amps at higher volume settings.
If that's the case, won't recording at home using a valve amp at acceptably low domestic volumes inevitably not produce the correct recorded sounds? I know Roger Allcock produces his superbly crafted recordings miking from his amp that's playing at quite high volumes levels - but he has a suitable room isolated from the rest of his home that allows for this. I suspect most of us may not have such ideally sound proofed facilities, which is why I've not bought a suitable amp as it couldn't be used at peak efficiency at home. How can one overcome this obstacle?
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 7, 2009 23:45:19 GMT
Hi Martyn, You are absolutely correct that a valve amp need to work fairly hard to get more character to the tone, this is partly but not wholly to do with the way the speakers react. Some speakers do not break up in this way but most guitar speakers do. I think the only other way is to use a Tonelab or similar unit to simulate the amp working hard, this will most likely be achieved by increasing the gain control, not the output volume controls, however there is a point when dirt that works well on stage doesn't work well for recording and the gain needs to be reduced if there is too much dirt. Compression after the amp sim and effects also helps to simulate some of what most amps do when they are working hard. An overdrive plugin set carefully after recording can also tame the attack spikes from a compressor and also add a little more grit. Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 8, 2009 0:07:56 GMT
Hi Martin and Charlie: Certainly using valve amps and playing at low domestic volumes as Martin saids don't help us to reach the sound that we want. I' agree....In my home-studio and with my AC 15 Heritage I need to limit its volume to something like 15% of its maximum range.... or my neighbors will call the police.... And about that Golden Street theme I hope that I could post the final mix in the next days...Suddenly my computer decided stopped and it's at service..... : Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by franz on Dec 9, 2009 0:17:47 GMT
Hi guys, I think what Charlie says about amp gain is born out my my own experiments, particularly with, for instance, Man of Mystery if not with Golden Street and I might have to eat some humble pie here about playing the former on the middle pick up.(another thread). A slight amount of overdrive on the AC15 amp setting of the Tonelab produces a more aggressive tone and bite particularly on the bridge and is much closer to the original than when played completely clean. And therein lies the problem. I have just fitted Roger Allcocks EF86 unit to my AC30. What a difference it makes. However, cranking the amp up to overdrive levels at home would blow out my windows even though within reason, Iam fortunate in being able to play at whatever volume I like. In order to break in the Blue speakers I have just installed involved earplugs and ear defenders on top and that was at 2/3 max volume! You can't hear any nuances with ear defenders! So the Tonelab doesn't produce the richness of tone and I can't use Roger's unit at its best because the amp can only be played in a room at less than 1/4 volume at the most. I must say as well that I have always regarded the early Shadows stuff as having a rather thin lead tone but a very rich one which seems very difficult to emulate. All the examples including Roberto's have the tone but are too full or rounded. If you try to thin the sound you lose the richness -another conundrum. My amp is playing up at the moment so experimentation has been limited but I have tried Roger's early Ac15 setting at position 2 with brilliance switch off but separately treble boosted. This seems to work quite well for things like Golden Street and Shane etc. I have never been able to get an authentic flowing tremelo with 4 springs on the Strat bridge- the B on the third string of Apache being the yardstick. That is with either 12 or 11 gauge strings. I use 11 gauge D'Addarios at the moment with wound 3rd and these work perfectly well with 3 springs. It doesn't seem to matter what I do with the screws. I had not however considered what Charlie says about resonance although i haven't noticed any difference when experimenting -more experiments needed!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2009 20:18:16 GMT
IMHO the reason why some sounds are not right is because the Vox Ac15 for me suffers from a very serious error, its got Treble and Bass but NO Mid. Without the mid frequencies you won't get the final sound of the original record and thats whats missing. How Vox can market a very expensive amp without a Mid is beyond me personally. This will sound daft and you may poo poo it but I have a Line 6 Micro spider with full EQ facility and with the MS I can leave the Bass and Treble in the same position for all the old tracks on UBHank 1 and for example roll off the mid for Footapper roll it back with a bit more for Wonderful Land etc etc and it works a treat. It makes a dramatic difference to each track and you dont have to touch the Bass or treble moving the Mid from 0-12 pushes different frequencies colouring the other two moving it closer to what you're looking for. Don't forget you hav'nt got the benefit of probably the best post mixing desk of that era at Abbey road. Tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 9, 2009 22:28:45 GMT
Hi Tony, Vox top boost amps could easily have had a mid control to make them more flexible, but I am not sure why you think the sounds cannot be got when we know that the amps used were Vox. The AC15 Heritage EF86 channel is fairly close to the AC15 and AC30/4 amps that were probably used on the early hits. While the top boost channel is a good alternative sound, it doesn't cater for the brilliant (non top boost), normal and tremolo channels of the later Vox amps though. I think a lot of it is down to the way Hank played, the different Strats used, the Meazzi echo. Vox amps do have mids, it's just that it can't be adjusted except on top boost models by turning the bass full up. The only other way to control mids on top boost amps is by changing the bass and treble controls, more of each gives less mids, less of each gives more mids, sort of, as the volume would have to be increased too. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Emiel Visser on Dec 10, 2009 7:29:10 GMT
Hi,
With respect to all of you trying to get the "vinyl" sound, don't forget the joy of playing. Over the years, and I am not saying anything new, Hank's sound changed many times caused by his gear and his playing style.
What I try to do with my band is to get close, get the atmosphere of the tunes and enjoy playing, but not slavishly copy. 90 % of his sound comes from his fingers and the use of the tremolo. So why not concentrate on that.
But talking about the gear, the pickup's, etc. is very interesting!
Regards, Emiel
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 8:37:51 GMT
Hi Charlie, First I totally agree about a big percentage is in the playing you can see it in the Crackerjack video of FBI with the youthfull exhuberance and confidence and the flitting backwards and forwards with the Trem arm and whacking the right string on return. I think what I'm trying to say on the Vox amps is that the finished product of those tracks and then ultimately to record had been subject to some mixing process or there would'nt be any need for Malcolm Addy and the other guy so to try to compensate for that mixing end result a full 3 band EQ on the Heritage to me can assist in getting closer in a live bedroom playing environment to compensate for that missing process. The reason a make this point is during the early 60's I went to see Duane Eddy and Bobby Darin in my local town of Worksop and Duane Eddy used his cabinet of 1x15" and 1x12" speaker and it sounded just like the record, pretty awsome with that deep bassy sound he had. I was using an AC30 and copycat back then and of course could'nt get anywhere near that bass-growl sound. In 1976 I went to an eight track studio in Worcester which housed a medium sized mixer desk. Amongst other tracks I recorded 'Some kinda earthquake' on a Fender Jaguar with a nominal studio Fender Amp and I remember finishing the track and thinking 'thats not gonna sound anything like Duane' and it did'nt, that was until the engineer fiddled. He changed the whole character of my guitar and got really very very close it really opened my eyes. I've had quite a few different home recording machines over the years but have never got anywhere near that old eight track Worcester studio sound. My point is the Abby Road studio's obviously had some of the best stuff of the era and any recording made there would surely have enhanced any recorded track. Tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 10, 2009 19:59:29 GMT
Hi Tony, The Crackerjack recording was either live or prerecorded, most likely not at Abbey Road. It still sounds pretty good doesn't it. I saw Duane Eddy a few years ago at Cambridge Corn Exchange, it sounded exactly like the records and I remember he used Peavey equipment. I think the guitar was a Guild version of his original Gretsch. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 8:10:14 GMT
Hi Charlie, Great music in those days and great thread to banter with and get diverse opinions. Tony
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Post by betowelch on Dec 12, 2009 20:52:55 GMT
Hi Charlie and All: Well...after a while when I need to fix my PC and also improve the adjusting of the tremolo arm of my new guitar, here is the final sample of FMAGS following the last Charlie's recommendations (a little bit more echo and more tremolo arm work). Also as I wasn't like of the 3r (G) wounded string I decided to put a new set. Now I'm using Elixir 0.11-049 that doesn't have the G string wounded. But in my opinion, will be better with a 0.12 set if I could find with the G string not wounded.... www.4shared.com/file/171430312/464e600c/Find_Me_a_Golden_Street__Rober.htmlThis is a simple recording directly from my Vox Heritage AC-15 miked with Shure SM-57. In this sample I didn't use anymore that plugins (I'm not familiarized with it.....) and also I didn't use the Ampworks as a tone auxiliary device as in the other samples that I posted in this thread. Certainly, if I had a more audio and recording know-how this tone could be more closer to the original .......that this was the challenge of this thread. This is a really not easy tone for a closer emulation. You can believe that!! My settings in this final recording was: Vox Heritage: EF86 Channel Pentode Mode Volume: 6:00 hs (front view) Brilliance: 2 Bass Shift: 1 Cut Control: 10:00 hs (front view) Guitar: Lindy Fralin pickups Callaham hardware Middle pickup Strings: Elixir 0.11-0.49 Pedals: Boss CS-2: All at 50% less Attack (at 9:00 hs) MS U13 patch (with less echo.. Was set at 7.1) Mike: Away 1, 5 cm from cloth and at the extreme edge of the cone. I hope that you could enjoy this new attemp...My tremolo arm already it's better adjusted and possible to use it in a full way.... This give me a lot of works.... . but was very important all this discussion, as now I have a more better tone definition for this tune. And if someone could have another suggestion (to improve this work) that it could be adapted in this case....will welcome.. PS: I didn't check comparing this "final" recording with my others attemps...I'm trusting in my ears that this is better ...And I hope so!!!Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 12, 2009 21:07:59 GMT
Hi Roberto, It sounds better to me than all of your other files. I think you have arrived at the best possible settings with your guitar and amp and echo sound. When using the tremolo, please study exactly where Hank is lowering the pitch, then at all other times, vary the pitch up and down equally because I hear you pushing it down too much a lot of the time. You also need to use the tremolo for a bit longer at the very last note, you should then tend to be pulling the arm up a little more than pushing it down, and it needs to be done quite slowly. Regards, Charlie
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Post by marvingers on Dec 12, 2009 23:48:42 GMT
Hi Roberto! The last sound file was the best one. I think you also can adjust the height of your middle pickup as a test and also try to put the microphone in front of the amp about 25 cm from the speaker and not in center position. I attach my tabs for Find me a golden street as I play it. Best regards! Lars G. Vinger The MARVINGERS Best regards! Lars G. Vinger Attachments:
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Post by betowelch on Dec 13, 2009 11:12:15 GMT
HI Charlie and Lars:
Thanks for your messages. I also feel that this setting was better than my old attempts. Charlie: You are right about some too much pushing notes. This is a habit that I'm gradually correcting it.
Lars: Thanks for your suggestions and I will check it.
Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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Post by betowelch on Dec 13, 2009 19:10:21 GMT
Hi Charlie, Lars and All: As in all these tests and recordings I was more focused on tone question I didn't worry so much with the high need of tremolo in a lot of notes...and not only at the ending notes. In fact this tune needs a high tremolo work and technique. Also I wanted to check the Lars recommendation to put the mike in other position (about 25 cm from the amp and in a point between center and edge of the cone). So, here a sample of a test recording with more attention to the tremolo and with this new mike position. To me this sound it's warmer and I liked. And I think that the tremolo question it's better now. www.4shared.com/file/172153794/9c2d368d/FMAGS__Roberto__-_Tremolo_Test.htmlPlease let me know what do you think about...... Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by marvingers on Dec 13, 2009 21:06:51 GMT
Hi Roberto!
I think the sound is there but try to play the tune using the right fingering. I think the tabs I attched are very close to the original. Using the tremoloarm is one of the most important thing when playing tunes from The Shadows. If it´s slippery/loose it will not work. Use a Fender American Standard tremolospring for making it tight.
Best regards! Lars G. Vinger
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 14, 2009 0:54:16 GMT
Hi Roberto, I don't think you can get much closer with settings. Your tremolo arm is still pushing down too often and flattening several of the notes. Have you tried playing along with the original to hear the differences? Regards, Charlie
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Post by betowelch on Dec 14, 2009 14:23:01 GMT
Hi Charlie: Thanks for your reply. I'm agree with you about the tone. It will not be possible to get one closer than this. OK And about the tremolo question and according my e-mail explaining this in details, this is happens just because my tremolo isn't yet a full floating. As it is just only less than 1 mm away from the body, when I vibrate it, the pushing down is greater than the reverse action. Definitively, I need to fix this tremolo question. Backing the the FMAGS tone question, I think that this thread it's now finished to me and I want to thanks you and all members had been participated on it. My tone now it's better than before this thread. Cheers from Brazil Roberto
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