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Post by asimmd on Aug 2, 2010 20:32:21 GMT
Hi All
On the cover of the Shads first LP,Hank is pictured holding the famous 34346 Strat with a Maple Neck,but in other pictures taken later Hank has a Strat with a Rosewood fingerboard.
What happened to the 34346 and why did Hank swop to a Rosewood board,and what recordings were done using the rosewood neck.
Thanks
Alan
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Post by Charlie Hall on Aug 2, 2010 21:30:46 GMT
Hi Alan, Vox used to supply the Shadows with replacement instruments at fairly regular intervals as they became worn. It might have been in Vox's interests to do this otherwise everyone would have wanted maple neck Strats which weren't available. New Strats in the UK would have always been rosewood boards at that time. I don't know when 34346 stopped being used by Hank, maybe around 1961? Regards, Charlie
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Post by Tone on Aug 3, 2010 12:19:08 GMT
Hi Alan and Charlie
Just to expand a little. It was Jennings (UK agents for Fender at the time) who provided the matching red rosewood Strats and Precision Bass in 1961, no doubt for image and publicity purposes . As Charlie says, all new Strats had rosewood boards in 1961 because Fender had changed from maple to rosewood in 1959 (so 34346 would have been one of the last with a maple neck until they were reintroduced as an option in the late 60s).
It is not known exactly when Hank stopped using 34346. Although all public appearances from mid/late 1961 were with the rosewood guitars, there is a school of thought which maintains that Hank kept 34346 for a while and used it for recording. Some afficionados maintain that they can tell which recordings were made on which guitar (I certainly can't) but it's reasonable to assume that recordings made from 1962 onwards were made with the rosewood Strats until the Burns Marvins came on the scene around 1964.
34346 was returned to Cliff who kept it for many years, having it sprayed white in this period. He gave it to Bruce in, I think, 1976 as a thank you for Bruce's production work on Cliff's "I'm Nearly Famous" album. Bruce had it resprayed as near as possible to the original "pink" and, as you will know, he still owns and plays the guitar.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by s4wgb on Aug 3, 2010 14:03:12 GMT
Hi all.When i did my guitar project and wanted to know the serial number for Hanks guitar in the young ones i was told that know one knew! It was also suggested that Hank liked the 34346 strat that he changed the neck over.Do you think there was some logic to this? Thank you
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2010 14:50:29 GMT
Hi,
The Rosewood Stratocasters first appeared in public on 5th March 1961 at the NME Pollwinnders' Concert at Wembley - much earlier than Tony suggests. Several pictures of this event are in Roberto Pistolesi's book 'That Sound' and the date of that event has been confirmed through other sources.
Identifying which guitars were used on which recorded tracks during 1961 and 1962 is not immediately obvious; tracks were not released in the same order as they were recorded. For example, Wonderful Land was recorded in May 1961 but not released until March 1962.
My ears and experiments with a 56 Strat and a 60 Strat tell me that the change for recording came about around May/June 1961. Bruce is reported to have said (Guitar Techniques Magazine, Christmas 1997) that Hank definitely used the Maple Necked Strat on Wondderful Land on 12th May1961.
I can replicate this sound perfectly on my Maple Necked '56 Strat, but I have doubts about The Savage/Peace Pipe recorded later in the same month on 25th May as I can achieve a close enough sound on either Strat. However, to my ears he was definitely using the Rosewood Strat by the middle of June on say, for example, My Reistsance is Low.
In controlled experimental conditions the two types of guitar can clearly be identified apart; the Rosewood Strat provides a 'sweeter' more rounded tone on the higher notes and much more of a 'growl' at the bottom end. However, identifying these subtle differences in the Shadows' recorded sound is not as easy as we have no record of the other potential variables which will have influenced the final sound.
Cheers
Ian
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Post by Tone on Aug 3, 2010 15:28:37 GMT
Hi Ian
Thanks for correcting me on the dates for the changeover from maple to rosewood. The info' I gave was largely from memory (always a dangerous thing to do - especially at our age!) and I didn't bother to check.
I agree that you can hear the differences you describe in a live A/B comparison between a maple and rosewood Strat but, as you say, when listening to a particular recording it's not easy to identify which guitar was used.
s4wgb, I've not heard this one before. Are you suggesting that Hank put a rosewood boarded neck on 34346? If so, I think it's most unlikely because, apart from anything else, the pink body of 34346 is a completely different shade from the orangey Fiesta Red of the rosewood models so such a change would have been immediately obvious at the time.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Charlie Hall on Aug 3, 2010 18:49:27 GMT
I understood that when their guitars were worn out, they were taken back and replaced by new ones, therefore I doubt that any serial numbers were remembered. The rosewood board Strats would have had 11 screw 3 ply white/black/white scratchplates. I doubt that any pics of Hank with a rosewood board Strat would reveal the 8 screw single ply scratchplate but could be highly significant if any were found. In a music magazine of the 60s I remember someone asked about the sound from the two types of Strat. Hank's answer was that there was no difference in sound. Either he had to say that so as to not kill off sales of Strats (with the added potential of the Shadows losing popularity because of it) or he genuinely thought it. Regards, Charlie
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Post by asimmd on Aug 3, 2010 20:58:07 GMT
Hi All
This is most interesting,I gather that if I played a Shads tune on a Rosewood board,then same one on a Maple,I would not be able to tell the difference?
The reason I ask is that I have never had a Strat with a Rosewood Board,and I wondered if I was missing out sticking with Maple?
I would like to take the question of guitars used a bit further and ask,if 34346 was only used for 2 years,then a Rosewood board after that,presumably up to changing to Burns?
Anything after the Burns probably dosen't matter........or does it?
I may as well ask this now,If I was to get a Rosewood Strat,which one would it be?
Alan
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Post by Charlie Hall on Aug 3, 2010 21:28:05 GMT
Hi Alan, I think it depends on what type of rosewood. I think the 60s Strats had Brazilian rosewood, now they are mostly Indian rosewood or some other exotic tonewood like Pau Ferro. I am not sure, but I think I hear less difference between maple and Indian rosewood than I think I heard with maple and Brazilian rosewood but other factors could also be involved. Not only that, there were at least two different types of rosewood board. The earliest ones on Strats had a flat bottom glued to a flat top maple neck, these were known as slab boards and probably had a warm sound. Around mid 1962, the whole board was changed to be curved looking, like a thick veneer, these probably sounded a little different to the first slab board type. My 62 Strat had a neck date of Aug 62 and I think it was one of the first curved ones. I prefer the sound of maple. Brazilian rosewood is nice to play though. Regards, Charlie
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Post by asimmd on Aug 3, 2010 21:56:42 GMT
Thanks Charlie
Looks like I will be staying with maple then.
Alan
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Post by asimmd on Aug 4, 2010 10:14:25 GMT
Hi All
Further to the above comments,can someone tell me some of the tunes that were definately recorded using a Rosewood Board?
Thanks
Alan
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Post by Charlie Hall on Aug 4, 2010 11:49:31 GMT
Hi Alan, Not sure of recording dates but I think FootTapper and Shindig would have been on rosewood board Strats. Possibly some earlier recorded tunes than those and probably everything after. I always wondered if there was a changeover with the first album with some tracks on the maple and some with rosewood. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 11:50:13 GMT
Hi Alan,
I don't think there can ever be a 'definitive' list of what equipment was used on a particular recording as it is most likely that such records were never kept. Given that proviso, you could pretty much guarantee that most, if not all of those recordings made, say in 1962 and early to mid 1963, would have been on the Rosewood Strat.
Much of the 'Out of The Shadows' LP would be included - The Rumble, Cosy, 1861, Tales of a Raggy Tramline - etc.
Singles would include tracks like Foot Tapper, Dance On, Shazam, Shindig and Atlantis (some put this down to the Burns, but Hank insists it was the Strat).
I would also include My Resistance is Low, Round and Round, The Breeze and I and Theme for Young Lovers on the list. For me, the jury is still out on The Savage and Peace Pipe.
When I get a few moments spare, I'll try and produce a sample sound file with some phrases from some of these numbers played on a 56 NOS and a 60 NOS and let you hear the difference for yourself. Dont' hold you're breath, I'm a bit busy at the moment.
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by asimmd on Aug 4, 2010 12:14:34 GMT
Hi Ian
Thanks for the reply,and thank you for offering to produce some samples,I look forward to hearing them. I suppose the question I am really asking is,my NOS56 has a Birdseye Maple Neck,and if I was in the market for another Strat,would a Rosewood board be something I should consider, and which Strat would fit the bill best.
Big question I know but I'm sure I will ge some answers.
Thanks
Alan
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 15:12:46 GMT
Hi Alan,
Yes, I'll produce some sound samples as soon as I can .. none of my recording gear is set up at the moment, but I'll get around to it again soon and I'll post them on this site.
To be honest, unless you are really, really keen on getting the absolute, precise sound of the tracks I mentioned earlier, then I would stick with your maple necked Strat. Given how many other variables that there are in the 'That Sound' equation, I think the choice of Strats is really the last of your worries.
I have found a real difference in tone, which equates more to the late 1961/1962/63 Rosewood era can be achieved by using the Maple Necked Strat through the top boost channel and increasing both the bass and treble tone settings to about 3 o'clock as you look for the rear of the amp.
It's generally thought that you can have bass or treble - one not the other - but I have found that some excellent tones which match very closely to Hank's sound of this era can be achieved using a careful mix of the two controls.
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by Tone on Aug 4, 2010 15:41:47 GMT
Hi Alan As a previous contributor to this thread and the owner of a '60 NOS Strat (rosewood board) I know Ian won't mind me sticking my oar in. I treated myself to this guitar about 8 years ago and at that time I knew a lot less about Strats than I do now. After poring through dealer's ads I decided I would like a Custom Shop model and it didn't matter what the spec was as long as it was based on the pre CBS era and the colour was Fiesta Red. So, I found this one, tried it at the dealer's, liked it and bought it. At the time it didn't matter to me that it had the rosewood board - I was just very pleased that it gave the vintage sound I was after and was a delight to play. I still play it often, despite having acquired one of the Oasis 50th Anniversary Strats. Ian has the identical guitar and I know he is very pleased with his too. If you want a rosewood Strat purely because of the perceived difference in tone I would say think very carefully. Although the difference can be heard, it is, to my ears, quite subtle and it's certainly not the case that a rosewood neck is better than a maple or vice versa. Remember also that there are many other factors which contribute to a guitar's sound - body wood, pickups, make and type of strings, setup etc etc. Although Ian, Charlie and I have all said that we can hear the difference between maple and rosewood necked Strats, the only truly accurate comparison would be between two instruments which are identical apart from the necks and even then you'll be aware that you can have two guitars identical in every respect but yet they don't sound exactly the same. It's a real minefield! On the other hand, if you want one just for the hell of it or because it would make a nice addiition to your collection (as indeed it would) then good on you: go for it! As regards which one to go for, there's a lot of choice as a rosewood boarded neck was the standard spec from 1959 to the '80s and is still currently available on various models. I'm referring to Fender USA, by the way. It's purely a personal opinion but if I was looking for one today for Shads music and funds were available, I'd still try to find a 60 NOS in Fiesta Red - the Custom Shop are still advertising it but, unfortunately, Fiesta Red (if that's what you must have) is not a current colour option but you might find one second hand on the well known auction site or a dealer may have one Here's the link to the CS site: www.fender.com/customshop/instruments/search.php?partno=0150700I guess you'll be even more confused now! Cheers. Tony Edit - I hadn't seen Ian's reply when I composed this one but it's interesting to see that we're both saying pretty well the same thing.
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Post by Gary Allen on Aug 4, 2010 16:17:26 GMT
I thought Id stick my oar in too...Its a real pity Hank didnt hang on to that strat from the young ones.Id say it would be worth a few bob now.If anyone can tell the difference in sound between Hanks maple vs rosewood they ll probably think that the treble strings sound warmer. Id put this down to the pole stagger on the p/ups (as recently discussed in another thread ) I know a guy that ordered a rosewood strat in fiesta red back in 61 (he still has it) and it plays and feels different to the 60 time machine model..anyway he told me the strats for the shads were resprayed in fiesta red and were sunburst to begin with so the actual shade of red is always a mystery. What about the the white strats the shads used ??
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Post by s4wgb on Aug 4, 2010 16:25:22 GMT
Sorry to high jack your thread.I have this for sale if anyone is interested? As you might know the Fiesta red Custom shop guitars are getting hard to find now. Thank you. cgi.the well known auction site.co.uk/ws/the well known auction siteISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260642938964&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_651wt_1137
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Post by s4wgb on Aug 4, 2010 16:29:25 GMT
Ref the rosewood boards.When have you seen Colin from the Rapiers play a Maple neck strat? Not very often i'm sure people who have seen them can confirm. I use to own a Fender custom shop NOS which had 12-52 strings on and sounded great,but i had to sell it and regretted a bit so spent about 1 year or so looking for this Closet classic which has got 11-49 strings on.I have brought to much lately and this guitar has to go.Many thanks
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Post by Tone on Aug 4, 2010 17:02:07 GMT
Nice guitar, s4gwb! There you are, Alan - something to tempt you!
Mine is, of course, pretty well the same except that the rosewood board on mine is considerably lighter in shade.
Interesting point about the white Strats, Gary. We don't hear too much about them, probably because they didn't have them very long before changing to Burns. I presume they were the standard model of the period.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by solidlg on Aug 4, 2010 20:42:20 GMT
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Post by s4wgb on Aug 4, 2010 21:07:49 GMT
Didn't Bruce have a copy made of 34346 before the sale of the 50th anniversary guitars? I remember seeing in the changing rooms to cases that said number 1 & 2 on the right hand side as you went into the changing room where the artists were, if i remember right.
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Post by asimmd on Aug 4, 2010 22:00:27 GMT
Hi Guys
So many comments,thank you so much for your input, it is appreciated.
I haven't been idle since I read your comments,in fact even though they were not what I wanted to hear,I have done some listening tests of my own using my DVD's and youtube.
I have to say that I really can't tell the difference between Maple and Rosewood,and as I have always had Maple,I agree there would be no point in changing now after 50 years of playing.
So,it looks like no new toy for me,Mmmmmmmm,any suggestions?
Alan
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Post by didier on Aug 5, 2010 8:12:45 GMT
In december 1980, Hank bought a 1958 fiesta red Start with maple neck, he still has it. It was sold to him by Patrice Bastien who ran a vintage guitar import business in Paris for 20 years.
Didier
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Post by erikMAMS on Aug 5, 2010 9:28:44 GMT
Just to add to Didier's post - here's the story from PB himself. It was posted as part of a thread on one of the boards running back then.
Erik
"From: PBBoxes1 Sent: 10/23/2003 4:56 PM Hi Erik, The Hank's fiesta red Strat you can see (for exemple) in the1984 "Together" video is the right (!) Fender guitar that I sold in December 1980 to Hank...The complete story of this (second original fiesta red) guitar is a little bit long to explain ! and my english is too poor for explaining it correctely ! But in few words ?!: You have to know that my partern and friend Jacques is born in France. When we were teenagers, and since the early of the year 1961 and like many thousands of others ones in the world, we try to play some Shadows songs. He was "Bruce", I was Hank ! At this time I played on an Höfner guitar and him on an "Ohio" (made by a french luthier Jacobacci) Since Apache, we were big Shadows fans... Jacques moved to the U.S. in the beginning of the 70's. He married there. In March 78 as him and I were always fascinate with the old and vintage american guitars we decided to create "Guitar Express". In September of this same year Jacques bought from Guitar Trader in New Jersey a 58 fiesta red Stratocaster.... I remembered his phone call :" Hi Bill (my nickname !) I found a red Strat. It's the same model than the Hank's guitar on the first L.P. of the Shadows... For us : a dream ! and we don't really want to sold this guitar because it was like a holly grail... At least, can you imagine one second that two years later, the day where the Shadows did a unique concert in Paris "au théatre Mogador" I received a phone call from a french guy who said : " Do you know the Shadows ?... Hank Marvin is looking for a vintage Strat... Have you something like that in stock ?" And to answer proudly ! Yes of course !!! and I have my tickets in my pocket to see them tonight... I met Hank and the Shads for the first time of my life after the concert. At this time the Shadows had to go to diner, so I took a rendez vous with Hank for the next morrow morning in his hotel room in the Concorde Lafayette Porte Maillot ! I brung with me three guitars, but as soon as Hank saw the fiesta red I kwew immediately that he wanted this one. Exactely what he was looking for ! He wanted a Strat with a flat and wide maple neck and why not for a fiesta red . What can I say more ! This story is better than a dream. when I remember it, you can only wish it and hope that it'll come true. I want to add that when Hank bought this guitar (Brian Goode was the "real" customer, and Polydor sent me the money !!!) if the fingerboard, like many others maple neck, was a little bit dark and dirty, the original finish on the body was excellent... The wears you can see on the video have been done after ! Sorry Hank ! Certainly, it's because in early 81 Hank played again on a red Strat, that Bruce did refinish his one in the same color... I just met Hank a couple of times after. Last time for me in 87. At this date he has changed the original 58 Fender neck for a british "custom made" luthier neck. I don't remember the name of this luthier, but I suppose that Ade must know him ? Some years later Hank signed with Fender for his custom shop signature model. End of the story ? Not yet ! Two years ago my partern Jacques received directely in the U.S. a phone call from an australian guy who said : "Hello I'am a guitarist. My name is Hank Marvin !!!" Hey Hank I'am the man who found your fiesta red in the U.S and that Patrice sold you in Paris in 80... Since Hank bought directely from my partern Jacques his Favino guitar and some mouths ago an other original "Django" Selmer gipsy guitar... Some news of the fiesta : Hank keeps it at home ! He has also and always an original Strat Sunburst 57 maple neck, he bought from the Hollies. I stop talking!"
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Post by Tone on Aug 5, 2010 10:10:15 GMT
Hi Alan Here's a coincidence as we've been discussing rosewood boards and the white Strats. I know you've said you're sticking with your maple neck Strat but, out of interest, you (and others) might like to have a look at this one on the well known auction site: cgi.the well known auction site.co.uk/ws/the well known auction siteISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110569241367&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 Although it's not a genuine Fender it looks like a nice guitar. Hi Erik That's a nice story from Patrice. Cheers. Tony
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Post by asimmd on Aug 5, 2010 10:19:39 GMT
Hi Tony
Thanks for the link,I am having difficulty knowing just what this guitar is.In the description the writer say's He has used various components,so how come there is a Fender Logo on the headstock,and a Custom Shop Logo on the back of the headstock.
Also,a Custom Shop guitar at that price,I doubt it,but thanks for showing it.
Alan
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Post by Tone on Aug 5, 2010 10:38:18 GMT
Hi Alan
Yes, it's certainly not a genuine Custom Shop guitar nor, indeed, a genuine Fender. It seems to be a hand built one off. There are several inconsistencies in the description and, as I'm quite intrigued by the guitar, I'm asking the seller a few questions.
Cheers.
Tony
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2010 14:43:28 GMT
Hi Alan,
The guitar advertised looks like a 'mongrel' to me, and I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if you want something genuine.
It might look good, feel good and sound great, but It's a mock-up, simple as that, and it's value is no more than those of the component parts plus the time taken to put it together.
The seller's wording is very careful; he does not claim the guitar is anything that it isn't, but the photographs do.
The Hank Marvin signature on the headstock is most likely a fake, as probably is the Custom Shop logo. Custom Shop built guitars do not have their serial number produced as a transfer on the headstock - it is usually engraved on the neck plate. Unless they are special editions, where the edition number (eg 120 or 120/200) is shown.
I have never seen a neck plate with "Corona California" on it before either. Trouble is, a genuine Fender neckplate is easy to obtain and it is equally easy to engrave anything else you want to onto it also.
The only thing this E-Bay item has anything to do with Hank Marvin is the picture - and even that has been copied (most likely illegally) from a magazine. I suppose the glossy picture he supplies with it instead of the genuine Custom Shop COA is also copyright rip-off.
It's items like this that give E-Bay a bad reputation and catch out the unwary or ill-informed .. but you can't really do much about it because the mis-information is not direct, only inferred.
Good luck to the buyer .. I would like to know what this plays and sounds like.
Cheers
Ian
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Post by tonybiker on Aug 5, 2010 15:22:27 GMT
This has been a real interesting read, very informative. Thanks to guys like Ian, we all know the score with regard to this the well known auction site item.
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