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Post by philbarker on Jun 6, 2011 17:22:11 GMT
Read about this on the post event thread and am intrigued. Although it appears still to be a prototype is there any chance of having more details please? Well done to everyone in organising and attending what appears from reports to have been an excellent occasion.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jun 7, 2011 3:15:10 GMT
Hi Phil, Thanks for your enquiry about the new echo unit. I guess now is as good a time as any to supply more details about it! About a year ago I teamed up with JCvintage (John Collins) to develop a totally new digital echo pedal with an analogue preamp, powered by a separate AC adaptor. The dry signal is analogue from beginning to end, and only the echo signal is processed digitally. The dry signal has the same frequency response and harmonic generation of the Meazzi Echomatic 2 regardless of the echo patch selected, even when the effect is switched off, so that the favourite benchmark dry tone is preserved at all times, making it easier to set amp controls and other tone settings. The input impedance is the same as a Meazzi Echomatic 2 at 470Kohms, and the output impedance is low enough to retain a good quality signal when a long output signal cable is used. Patches will be pre-programmed during manufacture so they can never be lost, and are selected by an up footswitch or a down footswitch. A third footswitch turns the echo effect off or on, with an LED light indicating when the echo effect is on. An LCD display shows details of the selected patch. Fast cycling from one patch to another is possible by holding either footswitch down. At power up, the unit recalls the last selected patch. Five rotary controls can be adjusted at any time by the user, even when the unit is not powered up if so desired. These controls are for dry level, echo drive level, echo output level, feedback, and wow and flutter. Setting all the controls to a single suggested setting will give the basic intended sound from each program patch so it is possible to use the unit and never have to touch the controls other than to ensure that they are set as required to begin with. Control settings to tailor the sound in real time to suit the player, the guitar, and the acoustics of the hall or room will affect all patches continually as the controls are never over-ridden by patch settings. The controls provide sufficient user adjustment to customise the sound in much the same way as the original echo units being replicated. The preamp is all solid state but with the triode characteristics of valves such as the ECC83/12AX7 and replicates all of the effects of the earthed or grounded cathode valve circuits and cathode follower output circuits used in Meazzi echo units. Tests show practically identical results to the equivalent valve circuits, with soft clipping, generation of lower order harmonics that increase in the correct varying proportions with increasing signal levels, bias shifting due to capacitor coupling, and output resistance characteristics (the equivalent of anode or plate resistance). The typical triode curves published by the valve manufacturers are produced by these solid state circuits under the equivalent test conditions. With no valves to wear out, the worry of a replacement valve altering the intended sound is eliminated. The circuit runs at much lower voltages, simplifying the power supply design, and at far lower cost. John is developing the programming code for the echoes with much input from me. We are still writing program patches and beginning to make arrangements for manufacture. Details include accurate overall recording and playback frequency responses, accurate simulation of the effects of mismatched/misaligned playback heads detected in Hank's Echomatic 2, an analogue drive circuit with accurate magnetic oxide overload characteristics that take into account varying levels of distortion according to frequency response, accurate feedback characteristics, and accurate wow characteristics calculated from measurements of the mechanical parts of a real Echomatic 2. We found that the mass of the drum in a drum echo unit could not have tape flutter in the same way as the flexible thin tape of a tape unit. The sum of the wow components accurately reproduce all of the required Echomatic 2 pitch variations as far as “that sound” is concerned. Because the pitch variation components are programmed into the patches, the wow (and flutter where applicable) will be set correctly for any echo unit programmed. Other patches are for the Meazzi Echomatic 1 and while some of these were demonstrated at the Get Together, more programming work is required to fine tune and perfect them all. Yet to be programmed are the Roland RE301, Vox Long Tom, and others. All the echoes will be in mono, just as vintage echo units always were. We hope to have the unit in production in the next few months. The selling price is not yet known. The prototype is not the final intended case design, so pics are not being shown until the case design has been fixed. Regards, Charlie
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Post by rogera on Jun 7, 2011 7:12:26 GMT
Thanks very much for whetting our appetites Charlie and for the very interesting insight into the design of the new unit.
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jiminayr
Member
Never nail a door shut that you may need to go back through
Posts: 70
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Post by jiminayr on Jun 7, 2011 7:30:31 GMT
Hi Charlie, Sounds like mouth watering stuff. Will follow this one with interest. Regards, Jim
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Post by Bojan Drndic on Jun 7, 2011 8:57:45 GMT
Wow!!! Good stuff !!! Can hardly wait !!!
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Post by Amanda Hambidge on Jun 7, 2011 9:05:54 GMT
Compared to the Echomatic we had in use on Sunday, the difference in sound was unnoticeable, that's if there was any. I reckon Charlie has it sorted!!
Amanda
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Post by philbarker on Jun 7, 2011 9:15:31 GMT
Thanks Charlie This is great news. I suppose we had all better start saving up!!! Phil
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Post by shadowkarl on Jun 7, 2011 9:23:22 GMT
Hi Charlie,
your description of your new unit sounds very much in design than my "construction" with a Meazzi preamp section for the dry and wet signal from Roger Allcock and the wet signal than is processed through a Q 20 with your patches....(i have sent you pictures of that last year) .. and this funny design also sounds very close to the originals. But I am still waiting until I could hear your new prototype. (your magnetic oxide overload loop is not embedded in my first attempts for that sound, and also not the misalignment of the playback heads.....) Seems that we have got now a real alternative to the Meazzi, as Amanda stated in her last post?
Regards Karl
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Post by Amanda Hambidge on Jun 7, 2011 9:29:17 GMT
Hi Karl,
Several people commented that they couldn't tell whether they were hearing the Meazzi or Charlie's unit, the amp used on the Sunday was my 1962 AC15 replica.
One Hank tribute guitarist at the event commented that he'll have one for a backup to his Meazzi!
Amanda
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Post by shawbridge on Jun 7, 2011 10:17:10 GMT
Hi Guy's, i can only echo :-) what Amanda has said, you could not tell the difference in my opinion between the miazzi and charlie's magic box, very diffiult to tell indeed. I used a standard 78 USA strat and amanda's 62 AC15 with frightened city, the acuracy of the tone, bite and echo effect was staggering, i have heard them all including the TVS 3 but the raw vintage sound was there to behold. To say more, Geof tried the Savage through it and the finishing notes tailed off into the dictance as it should as per original shad's recording as it should, very impressive unit we could go on and on........ I guess the real beuty of this machine is that you can have the Miazzi vintage echo + the more modern shad's sounds all in one unit, I wonder what Hank would think of it :-)
cheers Peter
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Post by rjanuarsa on Jun 7, 2011 10:20:36 GMT
I'm now drooling I hope the price won't be so high. I'll be following the progress with great interest. Regards, Robby
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colljaw
Member
The Controller
Posts: 426
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Post by colljaw on Jun 7, 2011 10:38:16 GMT
Thanks for the explanation Charlie. I had an idea you were working on a new unit. You made a comment in a thread a while back that raised my suspicions. It makes sense as most of the units that can be programmed with EFTP are no longer made. The prototype seems to have been a big hit at the Get Together Charlie. Obviously we are all interested, but the price will determine whether we can own one.
Regards, Jim.
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Post by benitor on Jun 7, 2011 10:48:29 GMT
I'm now drooling I hope the price won't be so high. I'll be following the progress with great interest. Regards, Robby me too, if I can afford the price I will order one regards benitor
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Post by asimmd on Jun 7, 2011 11:14:51 GMT
Demo - Demo - Demo - Demo - Pleeeeeease.
Alan
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Post by shadowkarl on Jun 7, 2011 11:16:04 GMT
HI Amanda,
thank you for your reconfirmation about the (nearly) identical sound quality. Its a pity to be so far away from the insider scene here in Switzerland. Maybe - (although you stated in another thread) you will be early enough back from your holidays for shadowmania.
Regards Karl
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2011 12:20:04 GMT
HI CHARLIE ,JOHN & ALL , I am pleased as an Aussie to see that JC-vintage-JOHN is involved in this great project A great combination of ''MIND-POWER'' between you both .. As I live in australia it was not possible to attend the ''GET-TOGETHER'' which by all accounts was a resounding succsess due to the efforts of some great member's [congratulations to those organisers] .. SO we non attenders missed a slice of that ''great-Strat-Cake'' [did you save any HA.HAaaaar] ,But we also missed the DEMO of this new Unit but I guess from now-on we will be hearing more from it ,, I wish you two developers All the very best in this needed new venture & have no Dought as to it's succsess.. CHEERS ALL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Barry..
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Post by John Collins on Jun 7, 2011 12:33:51 GMT
Hi all, This might be a good opportunity for me to chime in, to help shine some light onto the development of the new (yet to be named) echo unit that Charlie demonstrated at the recent Get Together. Charlie has provided quite a lot of technical detail on the unit, so I will focus more on the background and development process that lead to that. By way of introduction, my own background (and career) is electronics, and music has been a lifelong hobby and passion. Recently I started a guitar pickup business, (JCvintage) and some of you may recognise me through that. About 15 months ago, not long after joining this site, I started to experiment with Digital Signal Processing – to learn about DSP techniques and to see if were possible to get close to the echo sound of the old units. I was also encouraged by some of the other echo projects that members of this site had been working on. After some initial success with my designs, I contacted Charlie. Unknown to me at the time, Charlie had been working on some analogue circuit designs of his own – particularly circuits that replicate the characteristics of triode tubes, as he has described in his post. These designs are quite original, and unique, and it’s these designs of Charlie’s that are used in the analogue interfaces of the new echo unit. I also learned that Charlie had been thinking about a hardware platform to complement these designs, and a DSP component for the echoes that was built from the “ground up”, ideally allowing every characteristics of the echoes from the old machines to be produced, and controlled. So it seemed like a good idea to join forces. Charlie’s Analogue circuits, my Digital designs and Programming, and Charlie’s ear to get everything sounding right. We didn’t want to announce the project, until we were quite sure we had something worthwhile. All on this site will know Charlie’s attention to detail in all he does. There is more than a year’s development in this prototype-so far (it’s not finished yet). I can attest to the fact that Charlie has left no stone unturned in his desire to get things right. I can’t tell you how many sound samples, ideas, circuits etc have gone back and forth, and I believe we have developed some unique programming solutions in the digital code, particularly with the various EQ curves, Feedback characteristics and Wow and Flutter, all of which are implemented in the digital domain. It’s been a lot of work, but I’ve appreciated the opportunity to be involved with this. Cheers all, John
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Post by guitarsam on Jun 7, 2011 13:11:35 GMT
I'll definately be saving up for one of these. I'm so excited I can't wait. Congratulations, Charlie & John for coming this far with your project. Sounds like you have put a lot of time & research into this project.
Regards, Scott
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Post by betowelch on Jun 7, 2011 14:59:42 GMT
Hi Charlie and John:
Good news.....A new processor unit absolutely full developed and full dedicated to our needs....it's something very intersant.... My wishes for that the costs could not so prohibitive as others well dedicated units as ESE Echomatic and TVS.
Congrats Charlie & John!
Cheers from Brazil! Roberto
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Post by rockinscott on Jun 7, 2011 15:54:12 GMT
Hi Charlie and john
I wish I could of been at the get together but unfortunately I had to attend something a little more important the previous week, the birth of my second daughter. This is one unit I wish I could of heard in the flesh, the layout and way the controls work sound perfect to me as I enjoy playing with the units and this will make it that much easier, the same way as my Ese, I for one will be in line for one of them when they are ready and look forward to further developments.
Scott
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Post by garystrat on Jun 7, 2011 16:18:21 GMT
Hi Charlie and John
This is an eagerly awaited development that will hopefully will do away with the compromises of programming third party units that don't have full feature sets or others that are prohibitively expensive.
If I understand correctly, the intent is to hard feature the patches into a chip, which seems to make perfect sense. Presumably one could have applied a real valve pre amp circuit (Valvetronix style), but I'm guessing there are reasons as to why you didn't go down this route?
Regards
Gary
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Post by Johan on Jun 7, 2011 16:26:11 GMT
Hi Charlie & John,
Sounds like a winner! I can appreciate all the efforts put into such a project. Wish you all the best getting into manufacture stage -- that, by itself is a challenge. I'm keenly following your progress with interest.
Best Regards. Johan.
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Post by rogerbayliss on Jun 7, 2011 16:34:00 GMT
At last a unit for us Shads fans that will mimic the real deal Meazzi sound ! Cannot wait ! Great team Charlie and John . I wondered when someone was going to have a real go at this sort of project with DSP and the right device responses and EQ etc. Marvellous news and cannot wait to hear more .
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Post by bill on Jun 7, 2011 17:21:31 GMT
Hi Charlie & John, I greatly admire you guys and hope this is a success for you both.
Will an EF86 valve be one of the valves whose characteristics is included?
I'm getting the impression that it would be a good unit even for someone like me who isn't interested in emulating 'that sound' which is probably important for commercial success (that it have wider appeal, I mean).
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Post by Amanda Hambidge on Jun 7, 2011 18:43:04 GMT
Hi Bill,
Charlie has just emulated the ECC83's found in a meazzi echo unit, the EF86 after all is part of the AC15 and AC30/4 circuitry, and really any benefit gained in using an EF86 after the echo and into a transistor or ECC83 powered amp would be lost I think.
The unit sounded great working through Charlie's Fender amp he brought with him.
For those quoting TVS3 type prices, I understand that it will be nowhere near that expensive!!
Amanda
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Post by bill on Jun 7, 2011 23:13:51 GMT
Thanks Amanda, That makes sense right enough. I assume the user adjusts the controls to suit while connected to the amp they are using (in my case either a Peavey Mace VT or a Marshall DSL 402). As you can no doubt tell I've never used a real Meazzi! Bill Hi Bill, Charlie has just emulated the ECC83's found in a meazzi echo unit, the EF86 after all is part of the AC15 and AC30/4 circuitry, and really any benefit gained in using an EF86 after the echo and into a transistor or ECC83 powered amp would be lost I think. The unit sounded great working through Charlie's Fender amp he brought with him. <snip> Amanda
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 5:22:33 GMT
HI JOHN & ALL , Great message from you mate ,from ''WAGGA-WAGGA'' in OZ , as i said before I am so Pleased to see an ''AUSSIE-INOLVED'' & yes we know Charlie as ''mr -perfect;; as his band members describe him HA.HAAAaar. BUT we also know your compitence at electronic's & detail ,as you put into your P/ups as well [Ihave a set & your attention to detail is No.1..] & other like projects you do .. As you said A lot of delicate precision work was involved ,but it now look's like ''Bearing-Fruit''..as it is now in its final stages..
ALL the best JOHN & CHARLIE in this great endeavor ..,,,,,,,,,,,,,''AUSSIE-BARRY''..
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Post by fenderbullits on Jun 8, 2011 6:02:36 GMT
Great news I'll start saving up (better not tell the wife though)
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 6:53:45 GMT
Charlie, It's great news that you've also decided to move away from the 'less dedicated' units with limitations into the DSP era with added degree's of freedom in programming to your own liking. I'm sure the result will be finger licking good!!
Piet
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Post by 26rednef on Jun 8, 2011 8:45:44 GMT
Hi. To me it sounds as some thing very close to the TVS product. Competition is good. But to make use of solid state buffer amps may be something that will not be fully acceptable by some, it exists a great preconception on this subject. I got criticism for my comments in a thread on this Forum some time ago when I calmed that a FET amp can be made to sound so close to a tube amp that it have to be made a frequency analyze to find any differences, not accepted any way. I have used this article as a foundation to my own projects, the big advantage is the low voltage and the cheep power supply, cost is a 10's of a tube power supply. runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.htmlKind Regards, 26rednef
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