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Post by poppastarr on Jul 6, 2011 23:24:11 GMT
Hi Charlie
After interogatting the net with so many coflicting views I would like to ask if you knew whether Hank Marvin used a Klemt Echolette in his very early days.
The Klemt was the ants pants in Australia in the early 60's due to the Shadows. Most aspiring Shadows bands in our district were always after an Echolette to get that Shadows sound however despite not having the same amount of heads as the Italian machines, there was nothing else around other that the Echolette or the cheaper WEM copycat. The Meazzi or Binson was practically unheard of at least in my town Canberra Australia in the very early 60's and in all honesty no muso I knew including myself ever asked how many heads a machine had. We all started with Apache and the Echolette certainly seemed to duplicate that 'gallop' in Apache.
Interestingly enough the last three Gold Echloettes I restored were all sold to very much younger muso's than myself, with two of those muso's wanting the unit just for the front end 12AX7 pre-amp sound.
However I now wonder did Hank use a klept.
Regards and thank you Val aka poppastarr
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jul 6, 2011 23:33:39 GMT
Hi Val, Someone I know thought that Hank used one on the Crackerjack TV show recording of FBI, but someone else said it was a Meazzi. I haven't heard any evidence of a Klemt Echolette on the Shadows records, and I do know what they sound like. The tone controls at the front end of the Klemt Echolette are interesting, it is impossible to get a flat response with them! There were a few different models. In fact, a Klemt Echolette could equally be an amplifier as much as an echo unit. Regards, Charlie
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 7, 2011 1:27:04 GMT
Hi Charlie
Thank you for the info. Yes you are right Klemt also had an amp that looked a bit like the echo, a friend of mine in Brisbane Aust has one. I used to save and repair any old echo's and sell some to finance other parts of my music projects. I still have in immaculate condition a Black (wooden cased) Echolette E51 that came out after the Gold Metal models when Klemt sold, I think to Dynacord, I may be wrong. The E51 is amost identical in circuitry but used circuit boards for the components instead of that Rat's nest in the Gold model. I also kept my Roland Space Echo and one of the very first WEM copy cat transistorised models. In my opinion I think the Roland Space Echo was one of the best tape echo's that ever came out for its time.
Somewhere in my life I swear I saw a photo of the Shadows with a Klemt gold echolette in view. However there may have been times when the Shadows no doubt would have had a photo taken with certain gear just for publicity for the company.
Regards Val
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Post by didier on Jul 7, 2011 7:45:52 GMT
However I now wonder did Hank use a klept. If he did, it was only for a very few times with a borrowed one. He never used one on a regular basis. BTW, the Klemt and Binson were better known than Meazzi and WEM Copicat in France. Didier
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Post by peterbower on Jul 7, 2011 7:52:32 GMT
Hi Poppastarr
Very interesting info, I find all these different echo machines fascinating and there are makes I have never heard.
I agree with you about the Roland echo's, they were no doubt at the high end of the echo chamber world, but darn expensive compared to other makes. They even hinted at bringing out a 'Dolby' version but, solid state was already making the analogue systems redundant so it was dropped. The Roland's do give superb echo but not quite the early Shads sound. Great though for Hank's 80' & early 90's sound for obvious reasons, he used a RE-301. I used my 301 quite a lot down the pub years ago and it was always praised by the punters. There are 2 echo machines I would like to get hold of, one is the Korg 'Stage' Echo, It was very similar to the Roland machines and a lot less fussy with its controls. Unlike the Roland tape length of 10 feet, Korg used 16 feet. It was Korg's answer to Roland and it sounded brilliant and was slightly cheaper. The second is the Roland RE-3 digital echo which had a small programmable chip, but most echoes styles were presets. A good example of this in action is the instrumental by Hank 'Walking In The Air'. I know he recorded a few other tunes on the RE-3 but I'm not sure what.
Peter
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 7, 2011 22:00:13 GMT
Hi Charlie
Charlie, I had a look at that the Cracker Jack TV clip with the Shadows playing FBI and was facinated at the performance as I had not seen that one. I couldn't see an echo unit unless it was one on the chair to the right of screen.
Hi Peter
I too am fascinated with the old echo's and still keep a lookout for any that come cheap. You have just revitilised my ole brain cells. My last band in 1996 was a 'Shadows Revival Band' playing just Shadows instros and some of their vocals. Thats another story, I reckon the Shadows were a great vocal band as well and a bit underated with their excellant harmonies etc. But it was the time of the 'Beatles' who quickly overshadowed any other pop instro bands. Anyway in my Shadows Revival Band both guitarists shared the instro's. One used the Roland Space Echo and my best friend still to this day used a Korg you mentioned above. He still has it and I do agree it was a great unit for the Shads. It was only a few years ago I made him a tape loop for the Korg. I also had a RE301 which I sold to help finance a new strat. The 301 was sold to a local elderly muso who wanted to use it in his Rockabilly group. Funny thing is I am quite apt at building my own solid bodies completely from scratch but nostalgia wanted me to purchase another US Standard Strat. My grand daughter Chloe Chalmers use's one of my strat copies called the 'Black Eagle' to play Mozart's Forted in the You Tube clip.
Hi Didier
It's interesting how years later one was wrong and it only by word of mouth in the 60's that you were told at the time get an Echolette if you play Shadows stuff. That was also due to other bands in Australia that did use a Klemt, so you thought that was how it was done. If I mention to my ole muso mates that Hank rarely used a Klemt Echolette I probably start a riot. And now lets be honest, the new digital units well programmed by Charlie really do sound great though sometimes I do pull out the echolette for nostalgia's sake.
Regards Val
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Post by fenderplucker on Jul 8, 2011 2:38:10 GMT
Hi Peter, Walking in the Air is an interesting case. It has different echoes in the L, R and centre channels, but they are not just single echoes (with repeats) as would be produced by the EC-3. Do you have any particular evidence that it was used on that track (maybe in conjunction with another machine??). Regards,
Paul.
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Post by peterbower on Jul 8, 2011 6:36:43 GMT
Hi Paul
Not really, It was a friend who told me about the RE-3 but I believe it was some sort of multi tracking or stereo effect with the echo. Can't prove it. Charlie may know more about this than me, he is far more technically minded than I am.
Regards Peter
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Post by peterbower on Jul 8, 2011 7:15:45 GMT
Hi Val
I have to agree with you re the Shadows harmonies, they were pretty good and I have their vocal album. However, the British music industry and TV producers of pop shows would not take them that seriously as they were not seen as a vocal band like some of the contemporary vocal bands of the day. The Beatles were the band to push the Shads and Cliff out to graze for a while and they never really recovered from that. The Shads decided to do what they did best and that was to return to instrumentals. Cliff did his own thing and the rest is history as they say.
I remember now watching your grand daughter on U Tube playing Mozart, you must be very proud of her, the guitar looked and sounded great as well.
I used to gig my 301 and for a high quality but general echo for most instrumentals is was hard to beat. Although on some Shads tunes it was not that accurate which I was aware of, but the punters never noticed. I have a small hobby business making tape loops for the Roland's and I now have a client base all over the UK and some in Europe.
Its getting harder to find suitable tape for the Roland, but I have managed to get 2000ft of the right stuff.
If you have a 301 set the echo position to No 5, slow down the tape speed to almost the slowest position, adjust the swell to just below feed back and you will get that lovely roll over echo that Hank liked. You can add in a tiny touch of reverb to enhance the echo depth.
Cheers
Peter
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Post by didier on Jul 8, 2011 9:06:29 GMT
There are 2 echo machines I would like to get hold of, one is the Korg 'Stage' Echo, It was very similar to the Roland machines and a lot less fussy with its controls. Unlike the Roland tape length of 10 feet, Korg used 16 feet. It was Korg's answer to Roland and it sounded brilliant and was slightly cheaper. Here is a Korg Stage Echo SE-500. It features a "compander" noise reduction system, probably some clone of a Dolby B : Details of the tape transport : Didier
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Post by peterbower on Jul 8, 2011 10:08:16 GMT
Thanks Didier
Super machine and I wish I had kept hold of mine. The tape transport system is much the same as a Roland and it was a great echo machine. Its interesting to note that both the Roland and Korg use 'loose spooling' which allows a much longer tape to be used instead of the short loops on Meazzi's and Copycats etc. Thus tape life was very much improved over other echo machines. I must try and find one. Many thanks
Peter
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 8, 2011 22:30:00 GMT
Hi Peter and Didier
Firstly, I suppose we have all gone off the track a bit in our conversation from the Klemt Echolette and in fairness to Charlie should now be discussing this in the General section. Anyway I'll try to be quick. It's regarding tape for tape loops. I found a lot of my old Ampex 456 15'' tapes after well over 10 yrs started to loose their coating thus clogging up my reel to reel machine. I believe you can bake the reels and then try to recover what you can. Are you aware of this. Thanks for the hint regarding the 301.
Didier a great photo of the Korg, thats the one my best mate still has. The longer spooling was certainly a vast improvement over the fixed loop. I sold my last tube Copy Cat just last year to another local muso who also just wanted it for the tube/valve preamp. My first band used a WEM copy cat.
Here's hoping some more evidence of Hank using or not using the Klemt may still come out of the archives.
Regards Val
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Post by peterbower on Jul 9, 2011 6:41:57 GMT
Hi Val
We have drifted off a bit, my fault, did Hank use a Klempt Echolett? I haven't a clue, but its intriguing to think he did because that may require some new patches on our digital echoes. The original question was a good one but I ask, did he use it live or in the studio or both or never??? My other question is, did Hank ever use the 'Swiss' echo, or is that the same thing, I don't know.
Peter
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Post by peterbower on Jul 9, 2011 6:44:38 GMT
Val
Forgot to say, I have not heard about the 'baking' process to recover the tape, it sounds like you would do further damage to the tape and spools!
Peter
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Post by didier on Jul 9, 2011 8:16:54 GMT
Didier a great photo of the Korg, Here are a few more : Didier
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 9, 2011 22:13:18 GMT
Hi Peter
I am not familiar with the 'swiss echo' but maybe someone out there may know. Just for interest I have a comrade that played in the 'Denvermen'' back in the 60's he is Tex Ihasz and now lives in Canberra Australia my home town. They had a hit titled 'Surside" plus LP's following. They used a Klemt Echolette amongst their setup and only recently I met up with Tex and spoke to him about the Shadows instro's they did using the Klemt. However now based on the scant info so far I am starting to believe Hank may have never really used one at least not seriously. Ohhh that makes me sad.
Regards Val
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jul 10, 2011 1:55:43 GMT
Hi Peter, There are at least two different models of the Swissecho. One I owned a long time ago had 3 record heads and 2 playback heads. I have also heard of one that had a more conventional single record head and 4 playback heads. I don't know how they compare soundwise or if Hank used either of them. Regards, Charlie
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Post by peterbower on Jul 10, 2011 7:52:35 GMT
Hi Charlie and Val
Charlie, I seem to remember you telling me you used to have a Swiss echo many years ago.
Val, Hank actually had a quite a collection of echo machines, I know he had a Watkins Copycat but he never liked it that much.
I guess its going to be impossible to ascertain whether Hank used a Klempt or not. I do think he tried out different echo units both for recording and live, a good example was when I saw the Shads live in the early 60's at my local theater, he was using a Baby Binson which was normally only used as a back up for live gigs. Lets not forget that it was Joe Brown [no mean guitar player himself] who introduced Hank to the echo and the rest is history.
Peter
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 10, 2011 10:23:30 GMT
Hi.
Sorry to be a bit late on this, but I don't think Hank used Klemt Echolette, it was not special good for guitar players. I have seen pictures where hi is gigging on one, but that was in Göteborg Sweden when they was on tour. The Shadows was gigging with The Spotnicks at the home of Bo Winberg on Bo's gear and he used Klemt Echolette for some years it was just a private gig in the early 60's.
I have owned Klemt Echolette 5 it was a unite more suited for singing and in the PA system. All analogue and was very trouble some to change echo sounds and patterns on it. I had it full of marks on the front knobs for different settings but any way it was hard to change sounds fast and get it right. I changed to a different unit and I had a Swissecho unit for a long time it was much more easy to use and had pouch buttons for every replay head. The model I had had one record head and 4 replay heads and it could produce good echoes, but there was a drawback with it the feedback, it was hard coded to the selected replay heads as on BInson Echorec so there was not able to get a echo pattern like the Echomatic II without rebuild the feedback circuit. I did it on mine and it was very close but a bit darker sounding then a Echomatic.
I had to through out the tape cassette it was a nightmare and rebuild it for a short tape loop, and used it for many years.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 10, 2011 21:36:39 GMT
Hi Peter and Rednef
Thank you again. Yes we also had marks scribbled on the knobs of the echolette for the different tunes and it got confusings that at the end the gig we would just leave the echo on one setting and the crowd never knew the difference anyway. One thing I do remember when we were just young kids starting out we tried hooking up two reel to reel tape recorders to get an echo effect, something we heard that was done in some studio's before the echo machines were made.
Rednef do you still have a picture of Hank gigging with the Spotnicks?.
Regards Val
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 11, 2011 9:48:19 GMT
Hi. I have seen a couples of pictures from that private gig and I am sorry I don't remember where it was, I think it was from some news paper in Sweden, but here is a link with at least one of them I have seen, go down to 1965. www.spotnicks.net/story/story1957-2009.htmKind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 11, 2011 21:25:19 GMT
HI Rednef
I had a good look at the Spotnick site, wow, those guys had a long career. I saw Hank Marvin and Bruce Welsch amongst the photos.
Regards Val
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Post by fenderplucker on Jul 12, 2011 0:34:06 GMT
Hi again Peter,
Prompted by you comments I had another look at the echoes on Walking in the Air and found that thay could indeed be produced by an RE-3, with different delays in the right, centre and left channels. Thanks for that, I will update the article on the TVS web site accordingly.
Back to the theme of the thread, I could find no evidence so far, anecdotal or otherwise, that Hank ever used an Echolette.
Regards,
Paul.
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 12, 2011 8:01:59 GMT
Hi Val.
The Spotnicks carrier has been parallel to The Shadows, they started about the same time 57/58 but there has been a lot more changing of the band setting in The Spotnicks that have influenced the music style much through the years.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by john44 on Jul 13, 2011 12:10:43 GMT
Hi Val Charlie Didier & everyone
Val what agreat topic you created with this post and you are 100% correct that in Australia almost every one used the klemt echolette and those who did not had a watkins copy cat which were an awfull lot cheaper to buy. Every one agreed that Hank had to be using a Klemt as we thought there was no other way he could have got that sound Mine disappeared after I left it for repairs and the shop disappeared along with my echolette
I think being in Australia we were so far away in those days from the other equipment that was available in Europe and the UK we did not know about the Meazzi, Binson or roland units
The big instrumentalsgroups in Australia The Denvermen and The Atlantics and in Brisbane The Pacifics used the klemt and produced some wonderfull sounds The Denvermen with their slow Surfside and Blue Mountains among others The Atlantic with Bombora ,The Crusher and war of the worlds It was indeed a wonderfull time to be growing up listening and playing the great instrumentals as they came out each one was a challenge and the race to be first local band to perform the latest release promoted some spirited rivallry . I am fortunate to still be great friends with most of my band members of that period Cheer John44
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 13, 2011 20:03:41 GMT
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Post by poppastarr on Jul 13, 2011 22:43:36 GMT
Hi 26redneff
Your eyes are much better than mine. I saw the clip on Ýou Tube when Charlie mentioned the show to me previously. I could see the echo on the chair and knew it wasn't an Echolette but I didn't know it was the Meazzi Echomatic.
Thanks Val
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Post by didier on Jul 14, 2011 8:09:36 GMT
Hank Marvin at the Paris Olympia in 1962. The Meazzi Echomatic can be seen at the right of Hank's AC30 : Extract of a photo by Jean-Louis Rancurel. Didier
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 14, 2011 11:41:27 GMT
Hi Didier. Yes, that unite was much used and even here on this clip it can be seen behind Hank on the big box beside his Vox AC 30/4 TV front, seen under hanks arm. Here he is using "Cliffs Maple neck Strat". The sound is not good and never was live. Live they sounded as any band at that time. Here the bridge PU is really bad sounding, the middle sounds better. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ7DSivoB-I&feature=relatedKind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by didier on Jul 14, 2011 18:04:16 GMT
Hi Didier. Yes, that unite was much used and even here on this clip it can be seen behind Hank on the big box beside his Vox AC 30/4 TV front, seen under hanks arm. Here he is using "Cliffs Maple neck Strat". The sound is not good and never was live. Live they sounded as any band at that time. Here the bridge PU is really bad sounding, the middle sounds better. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ7DSivoB-I&feature=relatedKind Regards, 26rednef This video is from march 1961, they got the Strats with rosewood neck a few weeks later... I heard the Shadows live at the Paris Olympia in 1961 (curiously enough Bruce was playing a white Telecaster !...) , they had an excellent sound, much the same than what can be heard on the "Kingston" CD. Didier
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