new amp tubes valves

[kipper]

hi all just about to revalve my pinnacle amp, just started to look at new valves. i am surprised at the amout of makes there are and different types. any suggestions. i have been on watford valves site and it looks very good, i have brought from them before. pricing the ones i need came to £203.00 thats 9 valves ef86, ecc83, el84, gz34. just wondering if thats a good price or can i get a better one. some were cryo treated is that worth the extra??. also asked rock doc for a price anyone used them. thanks peter

[rogera]

If as most members, you are seeking the sound of Hank on the early recordings then do bear in mind that treating valves cryogenically is a very recent development.

In my opinion it is a money spinning factor that is best avoided.

£203 is a lot of money - are you sure that they all need replacing?
You may not have a valve tester, but perhaps you know someone that has some spare valves which you could substitute to see if you can hear any change.

[kipper]

thanks rogera when i decded to replace all the valves i never relized the cost involved. thanks for the heads up on the cryo thing. and i will have to find a way of testing what valves need changing. i thought it would be better to do the lot as i have had the amp about 2 years now and it seemed logical to do the lot. peter

[somebodyelseuk]

There are a lot of brands, but very few makers.
You'll find that a lot of them are made in the same factory using the same materials and techniques... same product, different coloured boxes.

thetubestore.com/bymanufacturer.html

[rogerbayliss]

I agree the Cryo thing is not going to give anything in terms of tone etc.. maybe they last longer ? I bought the Harma EL84s from Watford 18 months ago and they are still going strong. My pre amp valves are still the OEM from new 4 yrs old and going strong. Power and rectifier are most likely to go firstly. The push pull stage is best selected as a balanced triode I believe for a balanced drive in the push pull stage. Get a balanced st of power valves too.

[kipper]

thanks for replys apprantly they freeze the tubes in the cryo thing. it cost appox double for this to be done. peter

[kipper]

just found this about cryo treated valves what do you think,

Cryo Valves

Top

Deep Cryogenic Treatment is a process which reduces the temperature of the valves over a 36 hour chill period arriving at -195 degrees Centigrade (-312F) in no less than 12 hours. As the materials in the valve cool they contract . Having reached the minimum temperature the valves are held there for the next stage. This soak phase takes place over the course of the following half day. This has the effect of realigning the molecules of the metal structures and removing stress from the anode plate caused during manufacturer. This process therefore enables complete uniformity of the valves electron flow providing a reduction in the tubes valves noise floor and microphony levels.

The results from Cryo treated tubes / valves proves that significant changes are made to their sonic ability, so improving their sound quality as to match the characteristics of the NOS classics. The biggest area of interest to guitarists will be in the dramatic effect Cryo has on the way the tube or valve provides such a clear and unmuddled distortion. In short, a proven way of obtaining NOS sound quality with a great difference, an affordable price!

[mikep1]

Hi I have a fender hot rod deluxe & Have just re-valved it took out the crappy fender stock valves & replaced with jj/tesla sounds superb.

www.hotroxuk.com/

[barryk]

The Sovtek valves from Mike Hill Services (Google it) are very good value for money. Sovtek valves are very rugged and usually sound good too. You can order them as singles, matched doubles and quartets. Mike Hill also supplies Svetlana Winged 'C' 6L6's at a very fair price too, for all you Fender amp lovers. Don't forget to reset the bias on Fender amps when you change valves, though, or you will risk early failure.
Regards
Barry

[kipper]

thanks barry will take a look. peter

[kipper]

just been recomended some jj and tungsol valves anyone use these please. peter

[didier]

There are not many valves manufactures left.

Sovtek in Russia (but owned by US New Sensor Corporation) makes Sovtek, Electro-Harmonix, Mullard (new ones), Tung-Sol (new ones) and Svetlana ("S" logo for US market).

The former Svetlana valves are still made in Russia (with the "C" logo).

JJ valves are made in Slovakia (formerly Tesla).

And of course several Chinese manufacturers.

Didier.

[kipper]

thanks for that didier very intresting reading. i have been told Svetlana valves are very good anyone now

[stratomaster]

Oct 14, 2012 10:51:36 GMT kipper said:

just found this about cryo treated valves what do you think,

Cryo Valves

Top

Deep Cryogenic Treatment is a process which reduces the temperature of the valves over a 36 hour chill period arriving at -195 degrees Centigrade (-312F) in no less than 12 hours. As the materials in the valve cool they contract . Having reached the minimum temperature the valves are held there for the next stage. This soak phase takes place over the course of the following half day. This has the effect of realigning the molecules of the metal structures and removing stress from the anode plate caused during manufacturer. This process therefore enables complete uniformity of the valves electron flow providing a reduction in the tubes valves noise floor and microphony levels.

The results from Cryo treated tubes / valves proves that significant changes are made to their sonic ability, so improving their sound quality as to match the characteristics of the NOS classics. The biggest area of interest to guitarists will be in the dramatic effect Cryo has on the way the tube or valve provides such a clear and unmuddled distortion. In short, a proven way of obtaining NOS sound quality with a great difference, an affordable price!

Attachments:

[Mark Burton]

Peter

What makes you think the valves need replacing?

In my experience, pre-amp valves will be fine, power amp valves may need replacing after time depending upon use.

My stage AC30 has had the same valves for 4 years or so and sounds fine (although I do carry a spare set in case of failure)

cheers
Mark.

[kipper]

hi mark i get a differents in sound when turning amp on inconsistante really, thats the best way i can describe it. peter

[Mark Burton]

Hmmm - might be an idea to get Amanda to give it a service

[erikMAMS]

Peter - I've just had a similar inconsistancy problem with my AC30, from that it developed to a loss of power and a degraded clean sound. By inspecting the circuit I found the supply voltage was down at 200v (should be aprox. 320v). Swapping in a spare rectifier valve brought the voltages up to specs and the amp rings like a bell again.
Beware: don't mess around inside a valve amp if you don't know what you are doing - the high voltages can hurt/kill you!!!

If a sound problems is on all/both channels I always suspect valves in the following order: rectifier > phase splitter valve > output valves (output valves are more likely to be worn out than the phase splitter valve, but it's easier to swap in a single valve here before going to the output valves).

Personally I have been a fan of the yugo Ei valves (both pre- and power) but production sadly ceased years ago - I'm on my last set now. Not sure if there are anymore in stock anywhere. Otherwise I've heard good things about JJ EL84's and Tungsols for the pre.

I believe PhilC brought some of the new/reissue Mullards for his AC30 some weeks ago, haven't heard how he likes them.

Erik

[kipper]

Erik thanks for that. i am going to put new valves in all positions but not all at once, but i will start with the rectifier one, i have just ordered a 3 match set of svetlana 12ax7`s and hope to get the same make ef86 but i dont want to fit them all at once just to see what sound diffents they do make. but i will do them in the order you suggest. thanks peter

[kipper]

right got some new valves, i put a svetlana ef86 in then a harma diamond gz34, then 3 svetlana 12ax7 in. after fitting the first valves i didnt notice that much differents, but after fitting the 12ax7`s wow they made a great differents really nice clean sound just what i wanted. just got to get a quad set of el84 now, svetlana if i can find a set i can afford. the 12ax7`s came from usa and even including postage were the best price i could find anywhere even england. peter

[Deleted]

Peter, the valve that affects the sound the most is the ECC83 in position V1. I have always used a Philips ECC83/5751 otherwise know as a JAN5751. These are New Old Stock valves and give a superb vintage sound as well as cancelling out a lot of hum and hiss and give the most clean headroom of any valve on the market. Cost about £25 and in stock at Watford Valves.

Next ones to tackle in my opinion are the EL84's . I use Harma EL84/E84L They again give the maximum clean headroom of any current EL84 and are also available from Watford Valves at around £12 singly or matched pairs are also available.

Hope this helps... If in doubt why not speak to Derek Rocco at Watford valves who is a very knowledgeable guy...

Regards,
Jim

[erikMAMS]

Hi Peter
Obviously one or more of your 12ax7's was worn out or failing. If you had done the swapping one valve at a time, you could probably have found out which one(s) (IMO no need to replace/spend money on good working valves). The 12ax7 valve for the phase inverter stage – most likely the valve closest to the EL84’s – will affect the sound from both channels, the other two 12ax7’s forms the Pinnacle’s first channel, and obviously the EF86 being (the only valve) in the second channel.

Same thing with the GZ34 rectifier – if fitting the new valve didn’t change anything, you might as well get the most out of/wear out the old rectifier (unless you are playing live/on stage and want to prevent any possible problems or total breakdown during a performance), and keep the new ones for spares/future replacement when the old ones DO fail.

Good advise from Jim above. One thing though - IMO there’s a difference between getting the amp to work properly and any possible “fine-tuning” with valves. Valves do sound differently – not only from brand to brand or type to type – but often also from valve to valve, depending on where they are in the amp circuit and also the other valves they are working with. But before going into the process of comparing valves - finding the best valve for each posistion – personal taste etc, the amp must function properly, otherwise there’s obviously no point in comparing (maybe minor) sound differences/behavior between individual valves. When you have the amp working, you might find that even swapping around the same three 12ax7’s between their three positions will cause noticeable sound differences – can be quite rewarding (and/or confusing).

Before you spend money on a new set of EL84’s valves you might try to run it with the new preamp/rectifier valves to see if the inconsistancy problems you had are gone.

BTW
If you are playing early Shadows tunes you might consider at mod to the EF86 channel to get it to perform like the Vox AC15 or AC30’s EF86 channels brilliance setting for the vintage tone (the Pinnacle is not initially designed as a Shads/Hank sound amp).

Erik

[kipper]

thank you jim and erik, really good stuff that i new nothing about, as they say you live and learn. there really is a lot to these valve amps as i am just begining to find out. erik i thought the pinnacle was built with hank in mind, i understood that he used it but it proved unreliable because of some cheap parts that were fitted. i have had those things put right as well as the ef86 mod done by amanda. i really like the amp. i wont change the el84`s untill i have used it and see if the inconsistancy problems you had are gone.
thanks again to you and jim for the advice. peter