flat / tape wound strings:

[frankmarvin]

Maybe someone will know this: Did Hank Marvin use flat wound strings in the early days?: The reason I ask is that at that time ie: 1960 up until around 1963/4 we were only able to buy flat wound strings made by Monopole for our electric guitars, the only round wound ones available were bronze for acoustics: Having said that , we were somewhat *out in the sticks* regarding equipment suppliers: Also, has anyone tried playing the Shadows music using flat wounds? and if so, what if any, difference did it make to the sound: I remember that when eventually we were able to buy wire wounds. at first we didnt like them, they sounded overley *twangy*and felt really rough on the fingers, until we got used to them : Any and all comments / information would be greatly appreciated: Thank you, Frank:

[Charlie Hall]

Some people think Hank's first Strat might have had flatwound strings as supplied. Apache seems to have a somewhat dead tone that I associate with flatwound strings, but it is only a theory, and not necessarily fact.
I also think Hank's Gretsch had flatwound strings fitted (Nivram, Girl Like You, Stars Fell On Stockton, and possibly 36-24-36).
Regards,
Charlie

[frankmarvin]

Thank you for your reply and information Charlie, that is helpful: Actually it was his Apache and possibly The Stranger sound that started me wondering about this, it would be interesting indeed to actually know, but I dont suppose we ever will: Thanks again:
Regards, Frank:

[abstamaria]

I had always wondered about that, Frank. There was quite a discussion on the issue in this or the other Shadows forums. Someone posted a 50s advertisement by Fender, stating that the Strat was made with flat wounds in mind.

Hank's (Cliff's) Strat almost certainly came with thick flatwounds, and Hank most likely stuck with those as long as he could.

I put Thomastik George Benson flatwounds on my Jazzmaster for the Bob Bogle sound. They sound great for that purpose and are a joy to use. I am struggling with the idea of installing them on my Strat as well.

Andy

[frankmarvin]

Hi Andy, thanks for your reply, there is certainly food for thought here, have we all been trying to get the *Apache* sound with the wrong strings? of course I wont rest now until I try them and the run up the bass string at the end of Apache certainly has the *growl* of the tape wounds: By Bob Bogle, I assume you mean the Ventures? well I always loved their sound but I dont know too much about them, we used to do a few of their instrumentals, walk dont run etc etc , but then again, who didn't : I will check out the strings you mention and give them a bash after Christmas, speaking of which, Merry Christmas: Frank:

[peterbower]

If any one should know it would be Bruce Welch, as he changed Hank's strings and always tuned them for him. Hank admitted Bruce had a better ear for tuning than he did.

Would flat wounds be on the 58/9 Strat [Hank's first Strat] spec sheet. May be some one could ask Fender.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Peter,
From previous discussions it seems Fender supplied Strats with flatwounds in the 50s. I remember seeing a new custom colour ordered Strat in 1965 and it came with Fender 1500 wirewound strings, and it had a label attached to back that up. Assuming all the above is general fact, what we still don't know is when the change from flats to roundwounds occured.
Regards,
Charlie

[abstamaria]

It's quite an intriguing topic, this one. I recall being told that flatwounds were the only sets available in the U.S. until Ernie Ball came out with his flatwounds in 1959. He was rebuffed by both Fender and Gibson, so the story goes. If true, there is a good chance Cliff's Strat came with flatwounds. But how quickly did Hank or Bruce change them? And to what? It seems from discussions that roundwounds were more readily available then in the UK. All this is hearsay, and there are many more knowledgeable than me in this forum.


Hank and Bruce should know, but will they remember?

Good to hear from you, Charlie.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all. May our tribe increase.

Andy

[noelford]

Once again I have to query why such a generally interesting topic as this is in the Members Only section. Can't we keep that, if we need it at all, just for sensitive stuff?

[abstamaria]

Perhaps the administrators can move this thread, Noel. There might be good information out there from non-members.

Best,

Andy

[peterbower]

Was it James Burton or Carl Perkins or even Joe Brown [ I may have got these names wrong ] who showed Hank how to move to lighter gauge strings by incorporating some Banjo strings into the top E + B positions so all the gauges moved down a peg making the bottom E and A not so heavy. The banjo strings were not flat/tape wound but round wound.

It is a possibility that Apache and a few other songs were played on flat wound strings which may explain why so many players struggle to emulate that particular tone/sound, just a guess.

Peter

[frankmarvin]

Noel: This is the first thread started by me and I made a mistake putting it in here, it was quite unintentional and I agree it would be better in General : If Charlie or another administrator agree then they are free to move it:
Peter: Joe Brown and Hank mixed a lot in the early days, as is commonly known Joe Brown gave / sold him his first echo unit and was and still is a superb guitarist in his own right , but the echo was not right for his type of music: Regarding the banjo strings they used, they were not wound with anything, only the top E was replaced then the guitar strings put back on with E- string now in B position, B string in G position etc etc:
Regarding the Apache sound, well that was the point of the initial post as explained by Charlie in his answer: Regards, Frank:

[frankmarvin]

If any one should know it would be Bruce Welch, as he changed Hank's strings and always tuned them for him. Hank admitted Bruce had a better ear for tuning than he did.
(from Peterbower)

This info amazes me, it was only 2 weeks ago that Garry Taylor tore a strip off me saying that Hank had ears so good he could tell a Q20 apart from a TVS3 in a blind test so there ya go:

[peterbower]

Frank

Its certainly possible that Hank can tell those two echo units apart in a blind test, I'm pretty sure many of us could do the same. However, to tell if a string is at perfect pitch is another thing entirely.

Peter

[frankmarvin]

I bow to your better judgment : Frank:

[peterbower]

Frank

It was what Jet Harris told me years ago and I think Bruce mentioned it in some interview also years ago.

I just passed on what I was told and heard.

I know one of the original Bruvvers from Joe Brown and the Bruvvers and in conversation he said did I know that it was Joe who introduced Hank to the echo. Joe apparently said to Hank, that he had no use for it and he thought it was 'orrible' so offered to Hank. I guess the rest is history.

[frankmarvin]

Yes Peter, and what history it was, I would'nt have missed those early years for all the tea in China: In the early 60s our band ( or group as they were called then ) played as support act to a band called the Pete Chester Combo ( Charlie Chesters son) in the interval we all piled into a pub across the road and I kept saying to the bass player * my God you really do look like Jet Harris* eventually he told me he was his twin brother: I found out only a couple of Months ago that he was an only child: For more than 50 years I have been boasting that I once met Jets brother and it turns out it was HIM all the time just helping out Pete Chester, typical of his humour
Of course prior to that, I had only ever seen him on a very grainy 12 inch black and white TV , gullible or what? although in my defense I was only 17 at the time: Happy days: Regards, Frank:

[salmo]

Hi Frank,
I'm really enjoying this thread u started and feel priveleged to have had so much help from urself.

Cheers

Johnny

[frankmarvin]

Johnny, your most welcome, it all helps the world go around:

Charlie: Thank you for moving the thread to here, its far more appropriate , I didnt know how to do it:

Regards, Frank:

[frankmarvin]

Johnny, your most welcome, it all helps the world go around:

Charlie: Thank you for moving the thread to here, its far more appropriate , I didnt know how to do it:

Regards, Frank:

[frankmarvin]

I dont normally repeat myself, I must have hit the button twice, sorry:

[peterbower]

Frank

Its so nostalgic with all this history. Like you, we grew up with them. I remember the Chesternuts with Pete Chester and later the Drifters at the 2 Ii's in Soho. Big Jim was there quite often with the Krew Kats. All these bands were mix and match bands as they all depped with each other.
Eventually, famous bands were formed from these jam sessions.

Of course, flat wound strings were the favorite of Jazz guitarists and still are amongst some of them. Don't forget that most bass strings are flat wound.

Perhaps some one could fit flat wounds and see how Apache sounds.
If any thing the flat wound theory adds weight to the Gretsch theory as Hank's was apparently fitted with flat wounds which were supplied as standard on the guitar.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Frank,
That's OK, I think only staff can move messages and threads anyway.
Regards,
Charlie

[frankmarvin]

Hello Peter, I envy you knowing / meeting these icons personally, I'm afraid that my bit of knowledge is very much second / third hand with the exception of the Jet Harris story, and I didnt even realise that till 50+ years after: Yes it would be good if someone did try the tapewounds , no doubt I will give them a whirl in the new year but for now, having just changed to 13s with the re-setting up that entailed I need a break ( aint old age great )

Johhny: I e-mailed that string company for their phone number but they answered that they only take orders on line, so thats not too helpful: Keep bashing on:

Regards, Frank:

[frankmarvin]

Thanks for that info Steve, with snippets like this, we stand a good chance of making a calculated assumption one way or another, keep up the good work:
Regards, Frank:

[noelford]

I can't help but find it a little ironic that, with so many people chasing 'That Sound', something as basic as the difference in tone between wirewound and tapewound strings appears to be difficult to nail down!

[frankmarvin]

Noel: the difference in tone is obvious between the two types of string, most of us have played on both, however the initial query was whether Hank Marvins early tunes were played on tape wounds and did anyone know this for certain, I fail to see anything ironic in that, of course if you have anything constructive to say on this subject, I am sure the members would love to hear it: Frank :

[abstamaria]

Thanks, Steve. That is brand new information, and from the horse's mouth, too! If the later, Rosewood Strat came with flatwounds, then we can be reasonably sure the early maple one, imported direct from the US, came with flatwounds too. Now how long did they stay on?

If our boys were in awe of that first Strat, they probably would not have tried to "improve" it with the strings they had on their old guitars. If they were impecunious then, they may also have tried to use the original set of strings as long as they could. Since Hank was surprised by the size of the strings on that Strat and didn't feel compelled to use the lighter sets he was using before, he might have stuck with the flatwound style, too. All that seems to argue in favor of flatwounds!

Frank, I missed your earlier query. Yes, I meant the Ventures and particularly their very early tunes, like Walk Don't Run, when Bob Bogle still played lead and used a That's a difficult sound to capture, too.

I think all Noel is saying is that, since the difference in tone between flatwounds and roundwounds are so apparent, we should be able to tell by listening which was used on Apache! I agree an A and B comparison would be great.

All this convinces me to change the strings on one of my Strats to flatwounds. I'll use the George Benson Thomastiks I mentioned earlier. They are low tension and a delight to use.

By the way, there is audible string noise as Hank moves from a note in Atlantis, so perhaps he had roundwounds by then?

In any event, the world didn't end, so this discussion becomes relevant again. My best wishes to all of you for the holidays and the New Year.

Andy

[allclaphands]

Hi Frank
I must say I find the whole of this thread very
interesting to follow and I can see what you
mean, with the strings and the sounds It is
obviously a subject many are interested in
by the number of replies and information given
Good on you
Pete
Seasonal Greetings to you and your family

[noelford]

Frank, Abstamaria understands perfectly what I meant. As for having something constructive to say about your topic, you obviously haven't read my first post (reply number 8), which was instrumental in it being moved into the non-members section where it will get a larger number of viewers.