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Post by meladdison on Mar 18, 2014 20:01:38 GMT
Hi guys,
Until recently I always played to backing tracks, then a friend of mine suggested getting together as he played both
solid and acoustic guitars and preferred playing rhythm.
Since having him play Shadows tracks with each of his guitars I am leaning towards the sound of the acoustic backing,
does anyone else have any thoughts or experience regarding this, didn't some of The Shadows tracks have acoustic guitar rhythm backing?
Regards, Mel
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Post by Steve Reynolds on Mar 18, 2014 20:10:31 GMT
On all of the early shads tracks bruce did play rhythm in the studio, he did use electric on stage purely for the image
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Post by philc on Mar 19, 2014 7:14:14 GMT
And to add to Steve's post, those early recordings with acoustic just wouldn't sound the same with electric.
Phil
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Post by didier on Mar 19, 2014 8:51:54 GMT
On all of the early shads tracks bruce did play rhythm in the studio, he did use electric on stage purely for the image Bruce often used an acoustic guitar when recording, but not for all tracks. He started doing so for Apache, borrowing Cliff's J200. He used electric on stage, not only for the image, but also because it was much more practical. Miking an acoustic guitar with the PA of this time wouldn't have been easy, particularly when doing their famous steps... Didier |
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Post by philmcg on Mar 19, 2014 9:35:40 GMT
Hi Mel - In the early days it was very difficult to amplify acoustic guitars without getting feedback.
As Didier said Microphones are impractical for moving around on stage.
Nowadays there are many other ways of amplifying acoustic guitars without getting the dreaded feedback.
I personally prefer the sound of acoustics for rhythm on most of the Shadows songs.
Cheers Phil
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Post by rogera on Mar 19, 2014 10:00:10 GMT
It's not just the Shadows that used an acoustic for rhythm parts.
A huge proportion of recordings have an acoustic rhythm guitar - it just fits in better normally.
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Post by abstamaria on Mar 19, 2014 10:20:55 GMT
Definitely an acoustic for almost all of the early pieces. We use an acoustic on stage, too. That's a Gibson Emmy Lou Harris guitar, a smaller version of the J200 ( our rhythm guitarist is petite). m.youtube.com/watch?v=C5UnP8mG1sYAndy |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 19, 2014 10:49:07 GMT
Definitely an acoustic for almost all of the early pieces. We use an acoustic on stage, too. That's a Gibson Emmy Lou Harris guitar, a smaller version of the J200 ( our rhythm guitarist is petite). m.youtube.com/watch?v=C5UnP8mG1sYAndy Thanks for that Andy - really nice. Regards, Mel |
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Post by philc on Mar 19, 2014 10:51:39 GMT
Great stuff Andy  A shame about the distortion though with the mic, it really spoils some fantastic footage, I must admit that my eyes were glued to the left of the screen  Phil |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 19, 2014 10:56:00 GMT
Hi Mel - In the early days it was very difficult to amplify acoustic guitars without getting feedback. As Didier said Microphones are impractical for moving around on stage. Nowadays there are many other ways of amplifying acoustic guitars without getting the dreaded feedback. I personally prefer the sound of acoustics for rhythm on most of the Shadows songs. Cheers Phil Hi Phil, Of course, I hadn't given the amplifying and feedback a thought but that really makes good sense. Thanks, Mel |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 19, 2014 11:00:23 GMT
It's not just the Shadows that used an acoustic for rhythm parts. A huge proportion of recordings have an acoustic rhythm guitar - it just fits in better normally. Hi Roger, Yes, one other group I enjoy a lot are the Eagles and they regularly use acoustic. Thanks, Mel |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 19, 2014 11:03:26 GMT
On all of the early shads tracks bruce did play rhythm in the studio, he did use electric on stage purely for the image Bruce often used an acoustic guitar when recording, but not for all tracks. He started doing so for Apache, borrowing Cliff's J200. He used electric on stage, not only for the image, but also because it was much more practical. Miking an acoustic guitar with the PA of this time wouldn't have been easy, particularly when doing their famous steps... Didier Thanks Didier. Regards, Mel |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 19, 2014 11:07:34 GMT
Great stuff Andy A shame about the distortion though with the mic, it really spoils some fantastic footage, I must admit that my eyes were glued to the left of the screen Phil I agree Phil - takes us back when we see the girls dressed like that also backing singers with Atlantis. I enjoyed it, just goes to show how popular the Shads were and still are. Regards, Mel |
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Post by DaveC on Mar 19, 2014 11:14:39 GMT
Hi Mel,
There are patches available for the MagicStomp that will generate a good "acoustic" sound (e.g. a J200 approximation) from a single-coil electric guitar. No need to swap guitars during your set -- just hit a footswitch (mid-song if necessary).
Regards,
DaveC
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Post by abstamaria on Mar 19, 2014 15:12:30 GMT
Thank you, Mel, Phil, all. Yes, everyone seems to be drawn to the chorus. The two girls were quite young and had never heard of the Shadows until w started rehearsals. We had to have period-style dresses made.
The recording of this live show
was poor. I'd like to do it again, but better.
All of the Shadows cover bands here use electrics for rhythm, except us. The sound of a jumbo is really full and nice.
Andy
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Post by philc on Mar 19, 2014 15:59:56 GMT
Andy, re-the sound. I can hear that it's all there not just the rhythm guitar which as you say is full and nice. I don't know of any Shadows cover bands in the UK that have your set-up, I would be well pleased if I were in your band Next time take the aux out's from your desk into a recorder that way you will be able to edit all the instruments and if there's anything missing, add it later. Let me know and i'll pop over Phil |
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jim
Member
Posts: 72
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Post by jim on Mar 19, 2014 18:40:13 GMT
Hi Andy,
Really enjoyed it.
All The Best,
Jim
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Post by meladdison on Mar 19, 2014 22:11:17 GMT
Hi Mel, There are patches available for the MagicStomp that will generate a good "acoustic" sound (e.g. a J200 approximation) from a single-coil electric guitar. No need to swap guitars during your set -- just hit a footswitch (mid-song if necessary). Regards, DaveC Hi Dave, Thanks Dave, I must be honest I wasn't aware of that, I am still a bit green where these things are concerned, the only foot pedal I have at present is The Dunlop Volume Pedal. Are you saying that you programme the MagicStomp foot pedal with the patch and that gives you the "acoustic" sound? Sorry I don't understand (J200 approximation)- please forgive my ignorance. Kind regards, Mel |
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Post by DaveC on Mar 20, 2014 9:14:57 GMT
Hi Mel, The Yamaha MagicStomp is an extremely versatile digital sound processor in the form of a foot-pedal. It takes the output from your guitar, modifies it and sends the result to your amp. It comes with 99 pre-set patches and space for a further 99, which the user can program to personal taste. Charlie created 33 EFTP patches and that's what most people here use it for. Others notably John Dale (look him up on YouTube), have created patches for different purposes. These can be downloaded from the net. A number of John Dale's patches are specifically designed to modify the output from a single-coil electric into a passable acoustic guitar sound e.g. Gibson J200, Ovation, Yamaha APX or Guild 12-string. These are not perfect imitations and are limited for studio use but, in an onstage band environment, they're brilliant. See: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBNDmesECkAlso, I remember that Boss made an "Acoustic Simulator" pedal (AC-2, I think) that did it in an analogue way. I'm sure I've got one lying around somewhere... Regards, DaveC |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 20, 2014 10:53:15 GMT
Hi Mel, The Yamaha MagicStomp is an extremely versatile digital sound processor in the form of a foot-pedal. It takes the output from your guitar, modifies it and sends the result to your amp. It comes with 99 pre-set patches and space for a further 99, which the user can program to personal taste. Charlie created 33 EFTP patches and that's what most people here use it for. Others notably John Dale (look him up on YouTube), have created patches for different purposes. These can be downloaded from the net. A number of John Dale's patches are specifically designed to modify the output from a single-coil electric into a passable acoustic guitar sound e.g. Gibson J200, Ovation, Yamaha APX or Guild 12-string. These are not perfect imitations and are limited for studio use but, in an onstage band environment, they're brilliant. See: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBNDmesECkAlso, I remember that Boss made an "Acoustic Simulator" pedal (AC-2, I think) that did it in an analogue way. I'm sure I've got one lying around somewhere... Regards, DaveC Hi Dave, many thanks for that comprehensive explanation and the video you kindly sent me, obviously a very useful pedal with some excellent sounds. Kind regards, Mel |
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Post by Stu's Dad on Mar 20, 2014 12:40:13 GMT
Hi Mel,
I think you'll find that most guitar effects processors have an acoustic simulator. I'm currently using a Zoom G7.1ut and that has one in the Preamp module. My old unit was a Boss GT3 and that had one. When I played in a band, one of the other guitarists had a very basic Zoom 505, and the acoustic sim in that was excellent.
Regards,
Len
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Post by martyn on Mar 20, 2014 12:49:28 GMT
I have the acoustic version Magicstomp (gold coloured) loaded with Charlie's EFTP patches, but the factory preset patches are, as the name suggests, nearly all acoustic guitar emulations.
In my view, a strat will always sound vaguely strat-like even if you play it through specific acoustic guitar patches. However, plug an electro acoustic guitar in and suddenly you have the ability for it to sound like a J200 or pretty much any other acoustic guitar you like. It's not absolutely perfect at these sounds but given you're starting with an existing acoustic guitar tone, the patches are much more effective at altering its sounds in subtle ways, unlike with the strat.
Cheers,
Martyn
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Post by Stu's Dad on Mar 20, 2014 14:15:12 GMT
You're absolutely right, Martyn, but we're always seeking recording studio perfection.
On the other hand the average audience, who are frequently half sozzled anyway, just want to hear a nice tight sounding band playing entertaining music well, and a solid body electric played through an acoustic sim is good enough for that. When one of us graduates to theatres and arenas then we need the real thing.
I've got a nice Yamaha electro acoustic and a good acoustic amp, but sometimes I rely on my own judgement whether I need to use them.
Best regards,
Len
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Post by meladdison on Mar 20, 2014 14:17:27 GMT
Hi Mel, I think you'll find that most guitar effects processors have an acoustic simulator. I'm currently using a Zoom G7.1ut and that has one in the Preamp module. My old unit was a Boss GT3 and that had one. When I played in a band, one of the other guitarists had a very basic Zoom 505, and the acoustic sim in that was excellent. Regards, Len Hi Len, nice to hear from you, as far as I am concerned this has been a great thread/post as I have learnt so much from the lads, if I am right then, from what you tell me the new Zoom pedal that *** is introducing will have all these different features/sounds. So it will have Charlies Echo plus an effects processor that will change the sound to that of another amp for example also sound like an acoustic guitar? I hope this doesn't sound too silly? Kind regards, Mel |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 20, 2014 14:23:47 GMT
I have the acoustic version Magicstomp (gold coloured) loaded with Charlie's EFTP patches, but the factory preset patches are, as the name suggests, nearly all acoustic guitar emulations. In my view, a strat will always sound vaguely strat-like even if you play it through specific acoustic guitar patches. However, plug an electro acoustic guitar in and suddenly you have the ability for it to sound like a J200 or pretty much any other acoustic guitar you like. It's not absolutely perfect at these sounds but given you're starting with an existing acoustic guitar tone, the patches are much more effective at altering its sounds in subtle ways, unlike with the strat. Cheers, Martyn Thanks Martyn, It seems the Magicstomp is a real plus if you play an electric acoustic guitar then ? Regards, Mel |
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Post by DaveC on Mar 20, 2014 14:44:39 GMT
What I'm trying to say about the MagicStomp is that it is a programmable digital sound-processor. As Martyn says, the acoustic patches supplied are great for modifying the sound of an acoustic guitar (the MagicStomp's predecessor, the AGStomp, is a permanent part of my Acoustic rig) -- but you can design patches to do almost anything.
John Dale started from scratch and created patches that take the output from an electric guitar and process it to sound like an acoustic guitar. Just listen to the YouTube demo.
You are perfectly free to tweak these patches to your own taste or build something completely new. I can get a Strat to do a superb imitation of a Saxophone (think "Baker Street")!
You aren't stuck with the pre-sets.
Regards
DaveC
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Post by meladdison on Mar 20, 2014 14:50:59 GMT
What I'm trying to say about the MagicStomp is that it is a programmable digital sound-processor. As Noel says, the acoustic patches supplied are great for modifying the sound of an acoustic guitar -- but you can design patches to do almost anything. John Dale started from scratch and created patches that take the output from an electric guitar and process it to sound like an acoustic guitar. Just listen to the YouTube demo. You are perfectly free to tweak these patches to your own taste or build something completely new. I've heard a Strat doing a superb imitation of an Alto Sax! You aren't stuck with the pre-sets. Regards DaveC Thanks again Dave, you have been really informative and helpful - this is a subject I have been vague about for ages, your comments along with Len's and Noel's are really useful. Many thanks, Mel I will look at the video now. |
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Post by meladdison on Mar 20, 2014 14:54:50 GMT
What I'm trying to say about the MagicStomp is that it is a programmable digital sound-processor. As Noel says, the acoustic patches supplied are great for modifying the sound of an acoustic guitar -- but you can design patches to do almost anything. John Dale started from scratch and created patches that take the output from an electric guitar and process it to sound like an acoustic guitar. Just listen to the YouTube demo. You are perfectly free to tweak these patches to your own taste or build something completely new. I've heard a Strat doing a superb imitation of an Alto Sax! You aren't stuck with the pre-sets. Regards DaveC Thanks again Dave, you have been really informative and helpful - this is a subject I have been vague about for ages, your comments along with Len's and Noel's are really useful. Many thanks, Mel I will look at the video now. Sorry Dave, I did look at the video this morning and that has made me even keener to have a pedal of this kind. Regards, Mel |
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Post by Stu's Dad on Mar 20, 2014 14:57:05 GMT
Hi Mel,
I assume you haven't got a processor at the moment. Yes the Zoom G3 & G5 will have some sort of acoustic sim in them. All you have to do is visit the Zoom website (or Yamaha for the Magicstomp) click on the support tab and view any of the manuals for the various models. Seemples.
All the best,
Len
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Post by DaveC on Mar 20, 2014 15:19:18 GMT
Getting back to the original theme of this thread, the rhythm guitarist is the unsung hero of rock and pop bands (although in a Reggae band he's the BOSS), and he has different priorities to the lead guitarist. The lead guitarist is trying to create a melody with specific tones and expressions and a critical audience (e.g. Shadfans) will be listening to little nuances. Is he using the right timing for the echoes? He's got too much treble! That cable is deadening his sound! Tiny things can have a big effect so each component needs to be spot on. The rhythm guitarist however is trying to create a broad soundscape to support the lead and the bass. The audience hears the whole thing -- not the fine detail. Nobody ever comments that Bruce is using the wrong pick-up or needs to change his strings! All the focus of the rhythm guitarist is on RHYTHM. Equipment wise, all you need is a favourite electric guitar (plus a back-up) for the entire set. The guitar should be able to produce two or three distinctive sounds. Feed it into a sound processor and create 10 to 20 soundscapes. Obviously, a couple of these are going to be acoustic guitar sounds -- but you'll also need approximations to Clean Fender, AC30, Marshall Stack, Boogie etc. They don't need to be perfect: close enough is good enough. Feed the output straight to the PA. That way the tone changes are taken care of by a footswitch and the audience can listen to your rhythm. It's not you who needs a MagicStomp Mel -- it's your mate . Regards DaveC |
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A shame about the distortion though with the mic, it really spoils some fantastic footage, I must admit that my eyes were glued to the left of the screen 
