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Post by skcee on Jan 8, 2015 10:44:02 GMT
I am thinking of buying a 12 string guitar. I sure would love the jingle-jangle of a Rickenbacker, but they are way too expensive for me.
Any suggestions what to look for? Price range app. £500
Cheers Søren Denmark
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Post by DaveC on Jan 8, 2015 10:58:10 GMT
Hi Søren, I have a Ricky, and the sound is unique, but I agree about the high price. Take a look at the Italia Rimini 12-string, designed by Trev Wilkinson www.jhs.co.uk/italia.html & www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTocVWjK6e4 -- it's a superb guitar and much more reasonably priced. You'll find places in the UK selling them for under £500. Regards DaveC
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Post by skcee on Jan 8, 2015 14:11:47 GMT
Hi Dave
Thank you for links
I have looked at the Italia guitars - sounds pretty well, if you can trust what you hear on youtube. But ooh that plastic control-plate look ugly to me.
Cheers Søren
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Post by baz on Jan 8, 2015 18:42:00 GMT
You could also check out the Burns 12 string.............altho you'd need a pre-owned model to meet your target price I think.
Baz
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Post by skcee on Jan 8, 2015 21:10:56 GMT
Hi Baz
Yes I have looked at the double-six. The problem is that there aren't that many of them here in Denmark. It's like winning in lotto to find a pre-owned one. I think it is too much of a gamble to buy one without trying it out
Cheers Søren
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Jan 10, 2015 9:17:12 GMT
Italia Rimini 12.
Best 12 string this side of a Ric. Don't take my word for it, though. Try one. I was so impressed with mine, I bought a 6 string as well. Better necks than the Ric, as well, but that's a personal thing.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by bill on Jan 10, 2015 20:46:58 GMT
Hi,
Can I ask, what is the nut width of the Italia Rimini 12-string? It doesn't tell you on their website.
I recently fancied a 12 string too but the Rickenbacker 370/12 that Roger McGuinn played has a very narrow fingerboard. The 660/12 is wider but is a solid body so presumably doesn't sound the same.
Bill
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Post by skcee on Jan 10, 2015 21:59:18 GMT
Hi,
I asked the local guitar-pusher if he knew the Italia guitars - he didn't. Allthoug it is the absolute biggest music store in Denmark (4sound.dk). I don't know where to go to try an Italia 12 string. But he has a 12 string Gretsch Electromatic - a bit over my budget. This one and an original Ricky are the only electric 12 string I have ever tryed.
The dealer told me, that if I wanted an original Ricky, I would have to wait for 2-4 years!! I think that sounds unbelievabel. Can anyone cornfirm that Rickenbacker has a waiting-list that size?
Cheers Søren
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Post by skcee on Jan 11, 2015 20:39:44 GMT
I have noticed something. In my opinion the normal way of stringing a 12-string is to have the octave-string as the upper string. 1st, 3rd. 5th and 7th. But I have seen some youtube videos especially with Rickenbacker 12-strings where the octave-string is the lover string. 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th. Can anyone explain why??
Cheers Søren
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Post by DaveC on Jan 11, 2015 21:34:04 GMT
Hi Søren,
You're right: the normal way to build a 12-string is with the octaves above. That way picking with a down-stroke hits the octave string first. Rickenbaker have always done it the other way round. There's no "why": they just do! It makes quite a difference to the overall sound, especially when strumming.
Bill is right about the Ricky (3xx series) having a very narrow fingerboard. I have small hands so it doesn't bother me but many people just can't get on with it.
I remember that the Italia Rimini 12-string had a wider fingerboard and it was almost flat. Julian will probably be able to give you the exact dimensions. I also remember that it was extremely "playable" and I liked it a lot.
I found the lack of a pickup selector a bit strange but I'm sure you'd get used to it. Roger McGuinn famously said that despite all the options on his stereo Rickenbacker, he only ever used the bridge-PU and with the tone full on.
Regards DaveC
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Jan 12, 2015 19:58:20 GMT
Hiya, The Italia width at the nut is 45mm. They come strung the conventional way, but it wouldn't be a big job to string as per a Ric. Funny thing is, the 6 string ones have a pickup switch instead of two volumes. It'd be easy enough to wire it that way if required.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by skcee on Jan 12, 2015 20:53:21 GMT
Hi Julian
I think it might give some problems -- I cannot see, that the slots in the saddle would fit - or am I wrong?
Cheers, Søren
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Post by skcee on Jan 12, 2015 21:16:35 GMT
Oh I just forgot In Danish we call it the saddle - You call it the nut --- sorry
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Post by bill on Jan 12, 2015 22:45:15 GMT
Hi Julian,
Thanks for that information, 45 mm is good.
Since this thread started I've looked at the Burns double six as well and it has a 50 mm wide nut. On you tube it doesn't sound anything like a Rickenbacker though (the Ricky sound is what started me looking at 12 strings).
Bill
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Jan 13, 2015 9:54:36 GMT
Hiya, The saddle slots are easily dealt with by a guitar tech - only four of the 12 would need to be opened out, if any; I'm looking at mine now and it looks like the slots are the same for each string pairing. I might try switching the strings round next time I restring it (Don't watch this space, it's won't be in the next few days). It's quite a bit lighter than the Burns and not so bulky, but then they are completely different guitars. Solid versus semi-solid. Sound-wise, au naturale, it doesn't sound 'exactly' like a Ric - different woods and pickups - but there isn't anything out there without the name that comes as close. Pickups are minibuckers. Ideal for Roger McGuinn sound, back the bass and mid off a little at the amp and you've got George Harrison, Johnny Marr etc. Swap them for Ric pickups and you're as close as you'll get without a much bigger hole in the accounts and cramp in the hand. The 'control plate'... well, it grows on you. It's actually a sprung dish thing... The controls are mounted into a kind of inverted plastic dish that is screwed into a recess in the body, supported on springs. This allows the 'plate' to be angled towards you if you feel the need. Fit 'n' finish - exceptional.
Like any other guitar, you really need to try one to see if it suits you. Cheers, Julian
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Post by DaveC on Jan 13, 2015 11:58:08 GMT
Hi Bill, If by the "Ricky sound" you mean The Byrds rather than The Beatles, then be careful. Most of that "jangle" is created by compression/sustain. On the early recordings McGuinn was putting the signal through two compressors in series. If you want to recreate that try: www.janglebox.com/When McGuinn got his signature 370 it had a compression/sustain circuit built-in (basically a non-adjustable MXR or Dynacomp) and he played through a Roland JC120 for a clean sound. The wiring diagram for the internal sustainer is available ( www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=51936.0;prev_next=next ) and I see no reason why it couldn't be fitted to any other 12-string, provided that you've got room for a 9volt supply. Also remember that in those days electric 12-string guitars had only six saddles -- so you couldn't intonate the octaves separately. This drove McGuinn nuts and he nagged Rickenbacker into making a twelve saddle bridge. I bought one (at great expense from Manny's in N.Y.) and fitted it. Guess what -- I went back to the six saddles! The subtle detuning of the octaves is an essential part of the sound. Recommended strings are Pyramid Golds or Rickenbacker's own brand but be aware that the 3rd/octave is a 10 and this means that it's at a much higher tension than the others. It's worth going down to a 9 or even an 8! I think the Rimini is the way to go: if you start tinkering with it you won't devalue it. Regards DaveC
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Post by bill on Jan 13, 2015 12:29:50 GMT
Hi Julian and Dave,
Yes, the sound in my head is The Byrds.
Thank you both for the very useful information.
Bill
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Post by Viv on Jan 14, 2015 7:18:56 GMT
I am thinking of buying a 12 string guitar. I sure would love the jingle-jangle of a Rickenbacker, but they are way too expensive for me. Any suggestions what to look for? Price range app. £500 Cheers Søren Denmark Hi Søren, Have you considered a 12 string Fender Stratocaster?
Cheers
Viv
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Jan 14, 2015 9:36:17 GMT
Hi Bill, If by the "Ricky sound" you mean The Byrds rather than The Beatles, then be careful. Most of that "jangle" is created by compression/sustain. On the early recordings McGuinn was putting the signal through two compressors in series. If you want to recreate that try: www.janglebox.com/When McGuinn got his signature 370 it had a compression/sustain circuit built-in (basically a non-adjustable MXR Dynacomp) and he played through a Roland JC120 for a clean sound. The wiring diagram for the internal sustainer is available ( www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=51936.0;prev_next=next ) and I see no reason why it couldn't be fitted to any other 12-string, provided that you've got room for a 9volt supply. Also remember that in those days electric 12-string guitars had only six saddles -- so you couldn't intonate the octaves separately. This drove McGuinn nuts and he nagged Rickenbacker into making a twelve saddle bridge. I bought one (at great expense from Manny's in N.Y.) and fitted it. Guess what -- I went back to the six saddles! The subtle detuning of the octaves is an essential part of the sound. Recommended strings are Pyramid Golds or Rickenbacker's own brand but be aware that the 3rd/octave is a 10 and this means that it's at a much higher tension than the others. It's worth going down to a 9 or even an 8! I think the Rimini is the way to go: if you start tinkering with it you won't devalue it. Regards DaveC Completely agree. The Italia is a six saddle bridge.The intonation is good enough - set the 'root' strings accurately and don't worry about the octaves, they won't be far off as long as the action isn't very high. That's where the shimmer comes from. The strings... I use D'Addario 10s. I tried thinner gauges but couldn't get on with them. It was originally fitted with 10s and I was fortunate that the brand is my usual brand anyway. I wouldn't recommend changing gauges, as the trussrod adjustment can take ages to settle down. The third string octave... always buy a spare. The first few times I restrung, this string snapped as I was tuning up. I, eventually, found that the way to tune this string was to take it to a tone or two flat and give it a day to settle, then take it up to a semitone flat, a few hours settling and then tune it up to pitch. Not had one snap since. Restring one string at a time - NEVER take them all off. I do tune to concert pitch, but it is common for people to tune them a semi or two down, so there's less stress on the whole structure. I find mine is very stable, more stable than some Strats I've played, but changes in environments need to be planned for, as they will need retuning a couple of times while they acclimatise. They're - 12 strings in general - very rewarding, just a little 'high maintenance'.
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Post by skcee on Jan 14, 2015 10:12:15 GMT
Hi, Viv
Yes I have looked at pictures of 12 string Strats - but I cannot find one for sale. The only 12 string Strats I can find is build-your-own strat kits. I had a talk with a local luthier and guitar repair man. He suggested the Hagstrom Viking 12. He told me, that although they are made in China, they are good quality and pretty well build.
Cheers, Søren
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Post by DaveC on Jan 14, 2015 13:47:00 GMT
I don't suggest changing the gauge of all the strings -- just the 3rd/octave (high G). If you use the 10 (within a set of Rickenbacker 10s) then it will be at a disproportionately higher tension to the others. Go down to a 9 or an 8. I have to say that Jim Nugent on the ShadowMusic site gets credit for the idea. I always tune a flat-top acoustic 12-string down by a full tone because it puts less strain on the top in the area around the bridge (and it sounds great when strumming the open strings ) but I don't think that's necessary on an electric 12 -- or any guitar with a tailpiece. Regards DaveC
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Post by Graylion on Jan 14, 2015 18:01:59 GMT
I have a Burns D6 and it's the gentlest action 12-string I have ever played in my 50+ years of playing! No string buzz and easy on the fingers - easier than on my EJ200 6-string acoustic! It has a 'proper' top nut, unlike the old Rickys which had a 6-string width nut but 12-strings. I have long fingers and can't get on with narrow necks/nuts on a 12. The Burns has 12 adjustable bridge pieces so none of that out-of-tuning that plagued The Shadows early use of it - mind you Hank used the octave-down bass tuning, which is why he calls the old D6 a '12-string bass' guitar. One day, when I get a Round Tuit, I intend to reverse the stringing of the Burns so that it's like a Ricky where you hit the bass string first. I might just try filing the existing nut on the bottom 'E' first and see if I like the sound. I too loved the Byrds sound and am pleased that 'somebodyelseUK' has gone to the trouble of giving us the tech info on how to achieve it.
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Post by DaveC on Jan 14, 2015 20:17:19 GMT
I've checked on the string gauges in the recommended sets and they are as follows:
Rickenbacker (Compressed Round Wound, Part No. 95404):
E 10/10 B 13/13 G 20w/10 D 26w/13 A 34w/20w E 42w/26w
Pyramid Gold Nickel Flatwound 310/12 (available from Thomann)
E 10/10 B 13/13 G 19w/10 D 30w/13 A 35w/19w E 465w/30w
The Pyramids were fitted by Rickenbacker originally and they are the "Gold Standard" for the sound of The Byrds. They are heavier in the bass than the Rickys but both have that anomalous 10 for the octave G.
The D'Addarios favoured by Julian (EXL150s I think), are heavy in the bass (like the Pyramids) but use lighter strings for the octaves -- including an 8 for the octave G and an unwound 18 for the octave A!
E 10/10 B 13/13 G 17/08 D 26w/12 A 36w/18 E 46w/26w
DaveC
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Post by Graylion on Jan 14, 2015 23:01:33 GMT
The Rimini that Dave C lists looks nice and is a good Ricky style except for the stringing of course, which is conventional so that you hit the treble side first. I'll have a look for one in the UK - you can never have too many guitars! (Someone please tell my wife that!)
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Post by Graylion on Jan 14, 2015 23:20:43 GMT
As of today (14 Jan 2015) You can get an Italia Rimini in Black or Cherry for £475 from HotRox UK. How about a classic Italian Pale Blue Pearl for real glam!
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Jan 15, 2015 8:15:54 GMT
As of today (14 Jan 2015) You can get an Italia Rimini in Black or Cherry for £475 from HotRox UK. How about a classic Italian Pale Blue Pearl for real glam! I bought mine from them nearly three years ago. Mine's black, cherryburst was out of stock and they sold the last blue pearl while I was pondering. Customer service there is excellent. One thing; if they don't have the colour you want, take what they have, because it's a long wait for one on order. The Italia gigbag is... well, they're sturdy, tough fabric, with a stiff foam padding, and they look really stylish, though I can imagine the white/grey could become 'grubby' with regular outdoor use. Both mine are in them, but they don't leave the house very often. I get my strings for the 12 string from Hotrox, over the net, and they always arrive next day even on standard delivery. This is one of those shops where I would rather pay the little extra for the better service. I highly recommend them. Cheers, Julian
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Post by skcee on Jan 15, 2015 16:24:57 GMT
I have just looked at the Hotrox webside - I saw they have a Revelation 12-string Jazzmaster at only £229. I never thought that I could find a 12-string electric that cheap. Are there any out there who have tried this guitar. I have never bought a guitar online before, but this might be the first. I only want it for some jingle-jangle rhytm-guitar on let's say 8-12 songs at a whole night gig.
Cheers Søren
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Post by oldrenders on Jan 15, 2015 18:03:52 GMT
You might like to check out the Thomann website. They do a very reasonable chinese copy of a Rickenbacker under their own brand label "Harley Benton". I can't recall the model no. but mine turned up quickly, perfectly set up and we'll-finished. I have been very happy with my purchase, although others may be more badge-conscious :-) I think my copy was great value.
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Post by Darryl on Jan 16, 2015 17:16:42 GMT
Hi, Have you looked at the GAK website in the UK GAK.co.uk they usually list the double 6 for £575 (GBP).
I hadn't played a 12 sting for years when I purchased a Double 6 but the Burns seemed just right from day one. Or should that be note one?
Defiantly worth a second look in my opinion.
I'm using Ernie Ball custom strings after trying D'Araddio, E Ball slinkies & R,backers.
Regards
Darryl
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Post by somebodyelseuk on Jan 17, 2015 7:34:16 GMT
I have just looked at the Hotrox webside - I saw they have a Revelation 12-string Jazzmaster at only £229. I never thought that I could find a 12-string electric that cheap. Are there any out there who have tried this guitar. I have never bought a guitar online before, but this might be the first. I only want it for some jingle-jangle rhytm-guitar on let's say 8-12 songs at a whole night gig. Cheers Søren I would avoid any 12 string with a tremolo unit like the plague, regardless of whose name is on the head.
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