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Post by sixchannel on Sept 17, 2015 13:13:03 GMT
Hi
I have a pre-recorded drum track which is fine EXCEPT that the Kick drum is way too quiet. If I just boost the track 6db, the hihat bursts your eardrums.
With simple EQ only at my disposal, how could I lift the kick so its at least audible without raising the rest of the drum mix?
Cheers
Ian
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Post by Charlie Hall on Sept 17, 2015 15:16:40 GMT
Try to boost all frequencies below around 80Hz. This may make any other bass instrument too boomy so you will have to see how far you can push it.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by tolo on Sept 17, 2015 20:17:31 GMT
Ian - if all of the kit is on one file or .wav(?) then it will be difficult to isolate the kick to where you need it to be without impacting the other recorded drums. Charlie is right to say that by boosting everything <80Hz will make the rest of the track hollow and boomy - when in fact what you need is actually more mid and snap to the kick to make it sit better in the mix. An EQ alone won't do this - so what you may need to do is bring up mids and highs to push back the kick - and re-record it on another track? Or if you are happy with the sound of the kit other than the kick - redo it and double track it to get the right balance between old and new kicks... Just get a sample that is in line with the rest of the kit to be natural. The other thing you could try is this - I use it a lot on my drums (for depth mainly) and has a nice sub feel. www.waves.com/plugins/cla-drumsIt uses chained limiters, maximisesrs, EQ, modulation and compression to isolate the kick from a stereo track. Good luck - let us know how it goes!! |
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 17, 2015 20:39:56 GMT
Hi Charlie and Tony
The issue for me was that I'm using BandInABox where the requisite drum track in this case is a little shy of Kick. The "A" style (where the problem lies)is pretty sparse - just kick drum and closed hihat. (You'd a thought they would have got the Kick oomph right with only two things to balance! Sheesh!)
Using the 10 band EQ on my old DAW (thats all its got folks)I was able to get another 6db on the Kick without it sounding too bad and will have to live with it.
I'm working on a Pierre Teodori track, hitherto unattempted by anyone, and just working out his wonderful chording and Bass line risked most of what hair I've got left!!! It really needs a bespoke drum track but having got this far, I just wanna play da Music!!!!!
cheers
ian
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Post by Viv on Sept 17, 2015 21:05:44 GMT
Hi Charlie and Tony The issue for me was that I'm using BandInABox where the requisite drum track in this case is a little shy of Kick. The "A" style (where the problem lies)is pretty sparse - just kick drum and closed hihat. (You'd a thought they would have got the Kick oomph right with only two things to balance! Sheesh!) Using the 10 band EQ on my old DAW (thats all its got folks)I was able to get another 6db on the Kick without it sounding too bad and will have to live with it. I'm working on a Pierre Teodori track, hitherto unattempted by anyone, and just working out his wonderful chording and Bass line risked most of what hair I've got left!!! It really needs a bespoke drum track but having got this far, I just wanna play da Music!!!!! cheers ian Ian, In BIAB go to "File" and then look down the list for "Make a Standard MIDI file" and click on it. In the next box that appears select and click "File on Disk". This will open a window on your computer for you to chose where to save it. I work in Mixcraft 7 but I'm sure other DAW's will do the same. I drag and drop the MIDI into Mixcraft 7 and there I can select the drum track and edit the velocities of any of the drum track components. i.e. I can decrease certain drums and increase others. Either throughout the track or selected sections. I hope this helps you. Cheers Viv |
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Post by tolo on Sept 18, 2015 0:57:00 GMT
Is it a midi file? If so what is it triggering - maybe there is a mixer in that instrument? Viv makes a good point about velocities - if indeed you can control midi notes.
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 18, 2015 9:21:23 GMT
Hi Viv and Tony
No it's not midi. It's a Real Drum track (a recording of real drums playing a "Style") and BIAB uses the various bits he plays ( fills etc) to match what the rest of my virtual band is doing. In this case, I believe they mixed the A section too low as the B section is pretty much OK, apart from the snare being a tad too enthusiastic.
However, last night I had a thought - I do sometimes - and put the drum track into an old DAW called Adobe Audition 1.5 cos I remembered it had a many frequency graphic equaliser in it. That really helped cos you can hear your changes on the fly and tweak it as you go. It's better now than it was for sure.
Cheers
Ian
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Post by garystrat on Sept 18, 2015 10:22:04 GMT
Hi Viv
I have BIAB 2015 and didn't think of creating a MIDI file from it, in my case I could then apply a drum track to it in Logic Pro X, I assume one can export the just the drum track if the other tracks are muted?
Thank you for this great it tip, that could be very useful!
Regards
Gary
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Post by Viv on Sept 18, 2015 14:18:27 GMT
Hi Viv and Tony No it's not midi. It's a Real Drum track (a recording of real drums playing a "Style") and BIAB uses the various bits he plays ( fills etc) to match what the rest of my virtual band is doing. In this case, I believe they mixed the A section too low as the B section is pretty much OK, apart from the snare being a tad too enthusiastic. However, last night I had a thought - I do sometimes - and put the drum track into an old DAW called Adobe Audition 1.5 cos I remembered it had a many frequency graphic equaliser in it. That really helped cos you can hear your changes on the fly and tweak it as you go. It's better now than it was for sure. Cheers Ian Hi Ian, Believe it or not the "real drums" you hear in BIAB are MIDI. Everything done in BIAB is MIDI. It's just very sophisticated software that can render MIDI to sound authentic. If you have a rhythm guitar "real track" believe me within BIAB it's a MIDI. And that's the reason BIAB so easily saves it for you as a MIDI file. Viv |
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Post by Viv on Sept 18, 2015 14:31:10 GMT
Hi Viv I have BIAB 2015 and didn't think of creating a MIDI file from it, in my case I could then apply a drum track to it in Logic Pro X, I assume one can export the just the drum track if the other tracks are muted? Thank you for this great it tip, that could be very useful! Regards Gary Hi Gary, BIAB will send all the tracks down to a MIDI file but not to worry. As I replied to Ian; BIAB functions exclusively in MIDI mode. When you load the MIDI file into your DAW they are shown as individual tracks. You can simply delete the others. Remember when you render the rest of your BIAB composition to turn the volume of the drums all the way down. A strange thing with BIAB; if you simply mute the drums or any other track it still mixes them down. I have used this a lot mainly with drums. After loading the drum track in your DAW you can select other MIDI loops and put them on separate tracks to enhance the main drum track. I used this method in Walk Don't Run where there are strong drum breaks in the tune and also at the beginning. The benefit of putting them on separate tracks makes it easy to manipulate these additions to blend them in. I hope this helps. Viv |
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 18, 2015 17:59:05 GMT
Hi Viv
Not to divert away from the topic, although that is done now,are you running an older version of BIAB? According to PG, "Real Tracks" and "Real Drums" are exactly that - Real musicians doing their thing and being recorded. I have seen video of the strange requirenents they have for laying down their tracks (what Style they must play in,what chords they must play, riffs, infills etc). Are you confusing it with their relatively new "midisupertracks", which although played by Real people are quality midi files.
Maybe you know something we don't!
Cheers
Ian
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Post by garystrat on Sept 18, 2015 18:06:09 GMT
Hi Viv
Thank you so much for all the information, this opens up a whole new different way of doing things for me, before I was outputting BIAB audio files and importing them into the DAW. I hadn't realised before that the MIDI file would import into the DAW as separate tracks, I suppose I had got so used to the guitar track/BT convention that this totally eluded me.
Once again, very much appreciate the great explanation!
Regards
Gary
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Post by Viv on Sept 18, 2015 18:49:43 GMT
Hi Viv Not to divert away from the topic, although that is done now,are you running an older version of BIAB? According to PG, "Real Tracks" and "Real Drums" are exactly that - Real musicians doing their thing and being recorded. I have seen video of the strange requirenents they have for laying down their tracks (what Style they must play in,what chords they must play, riffs, infills etc). Are you confusing it with their relatively new "midisupertracks", which although played by Real people are quality midi files. Maybe you know something we don't! Cheers Ian Hi Ian, I have the latest up to date version of BIAB. Please believe me that whatever you hear in BIAB is converted to MIDI. Viv |
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 18, 2015 19:16:32 GMT
OK - This is an SGU that is ALL RTs - I'm working on it for a friend - convert it to midi for me. If I use the F6 key or the 'save as midi' icon, all I get is the 4 click lead in. Possibly because none of the tracks are midi, but Real Instruments? app.box.com/s/2adqthd2tcosgukfp450tqvhmyv9btpdcheers ian |
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 18, 2015 20:03:26 GMT
I asked PG for their comment on whether REAL meant REAL -
"Real Tracks are actual recordings of real human players on their real instruments. That's why you sometimes get the occasional noise glitch.
RealTracks themselves are real instruments and the RealDrums were played on real drum sets and recorded in stereo (which is partly why you can't break them down into their individual components). Some of the piano parts may be recorded through a digital piano (which aids in transcription), but the actual playing is real, not notes from a MIDI source. I suspect that the session artists that contributed to them wouldn't allow their names to be associated with them were they not real.
Listen to some examples of pedal steel guitar and some fiddle solos. Then find examples ANYWHERE of someone doing MIDI pedal steel well enough to make it sound real. You won't. I hope this helps"
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Post by Viv on Sept 18, 2015 20:57:45 GMT
OK - This is an SGU that is ALL RTs - I'm working on it for a friend - convert it to midi for me. If I use the F6 key or the 'save as midi' icon, all I get is the 4 click lead in. Possibly because none of the tracks are midi, but Real Instruments? app.box.com/s/2adqthd2tcosgukfp450tqvhmyv9btpdcheers ian Here we go link |
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Post by philc on Sept 19, 2015 7:31:00 GMT
Hi Ian, The easiest way to lift a kick is to actually record another one with it either by syncing the track to a midi track and adding a vst kick, or by playing a kick on the fly via keyboard, this again can be done either with audio or midi, whatever you choose, the kick can be edited later if it's out in places  Phil |
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 19, 2015 8:24:41 GMT
Hi Viv Something went wrong with your download I think. All the midi is is the basic C chord from the default JJazz style?? Strange. I just checked my upload onto Box and it DOES play what it should. Would you do me a favour please and re-download it again - it should look like this -  cheers Ian PS - I dont want it to appear that we are having a "row" about this - we are not - its an positive exchange of views. lol! If you think this is better done via PMs let me know. Have a great weekend. |
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Post by garystrat on Sept 19, 2015 8:48:27 GMT
Hi Ian
For me Viv's file worked fine, I imported the MIDI file into Logic pro and all the tracks were there. It was interesting that the drum track was showing up as such on the track name, but wasn't being properly identified in the instrument section, changing to a Logic drum set made a great improvement!
However, it was using Logic Pro instruments on all tracks, I think to get the Real Tracks experience you are looking for one needs to boost the drums and re-export the MIDI file from Logic back to BIAB and re-apply them?
Interesting thread, would like to follow your progress for my own information.
Regards
Gary
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Post by garystrat on Sept 19, 2015 9:15:17 GMT
Hi Ian
There may be a simpler answer to this, jbridge is a $10 plug in for the Windows version that adds VST plug-in support directly in BIAB, so you should be able to apply any of your current plug-in to individual tracks (drum track).
There is a video showing how this works on their website.
Regards
Gary
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 19, 2015 12:11:29 GMT
Hi Ian For me Viv's file worked fine, I imported the MIDI file into Logic pro and all the tracks were there. It was interesting that the drum track was showing up as such on the track name, but wasn't being properly identified in the instrument section, changing to a Logic drum set made a great improvement! However, it was using Logic Pro instruments on all tracks, I think to get the Real Tracks experience you are looking for one needs to boost the drums and re-export the MIDI file from Logic back to BIAB and re-apply them? Interesting thread, would like to follow your progress for my own information. Regards Gary Baffled!! When I open the midi file THIS is what I get -  Gary / Viv - can you do a screenshot of what YOU see on this midi please? cheers ian |
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Post by garystrat on Sept 19, 2015 16:12:05 GMT
Hi Ian
I have taken screenshot, if you PM your email address I will send it to you (I don't have a Box or Photo Bucket account)!
Regards
Gary
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Post by garystrat on Sept 19, 2015 16:14:01 GMT
Hi Ian
I found it in your profile and have sent it
Gary
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Post by George Lewis on Sept 19, 2015 21:54:44 GMT
Hi Ian (and Viv),
I love a good mystery !
Don't have BIAB but frequently wonder whether moving from Jammer Pro would be worth the effort for the small number of BT's I make from scratch, so have had a look at it from time to time.
Loading Viv's midi file into several midi editors confirms what's on your screen and consists of 7 tracks 1,2,and 3 are bass, drums and piano all based on a C chord, but tracks 4,5,6,7 have nothing in them apart from the track title.
PG's website FAQ's says Real Tracks are audio not midi and not included in the Midi file when a project is saved as midi.
So, an interesting mystery indeed.
Cheers
George
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Post by Viv on Sept 20, 2015 6:04:44 GMT
Hi Ian, This time around I did get your tune up on BIAB the same as your image posted. The drum track looks like this in Mixcraft. You can see in the MIDI editing section at the bottom I have the option to edit or change the individual drum components. It initially doesn't sound like your track played in BIAB but I can get it very close using Mixcraft settings. You can see I've chosen the Mixcraft Standard Kit 2. This is however subjective because every time I press the re-generate button on your file in BIAB I get a completely different drum sound. So I'm not sure which drum beat you are chasing.  Your Real Drums track in BIAB also has a lot of variations available. This is possibly why I get quite a few midi drums coming up in Mixcraft.  |
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 20, 2015 7:59:09 GMT
Hi George
I think you are looking at the first attempts by Viv to get me all RT SGU to open. It wasnt initially and Viv was getting a strange default which was 3 midi tracks playing a Jazz rhythm in C. Gary DID manage to get the file to open correctly too - eventually.
Viv - I may have confused you re the kick drum. Its NOT on this file - I put this one up as an example of an all-RT file only. (The one with the problem is still a WIP and will be a recording for SFs shortly.)
However, I am fascinated by what you were able to do re the drums - Rock Basic. I wonder if the player was using a set of electronic drums and that creates midi as well as Audio? I dont know about these things.
I will look into Mixcraft as a DAW and I notice that Mixcraft 5 is available FREE. Is that a good version to start on?
Regards
Ian
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Post by garystrat on Sept 20, 2015 8:00:02 GMT
Hi Viv
A MIDI file is a little like musical notation, it provides all the musical information, but not the actual means of playing it back without the instruments in the software. I think this has been part Ian's frustration as he specifically wants to use the Real Tracks in BIAB, once you take it out of BIAB I'm not at all sure there is a way to re-assign Real Tracks to other software. The only option seems to bounce it as an audio file.
I too had a problem with Ian's file because in Logic Pro X the drum track was being identified as a keyboard instrument, when I changed it to one Logic's built in drum sets it sounded fine, but quite possibly not what Ian was specifically looking for?
Your original post was quite a help to me, I hadn't realised before that a single midi track held so much information as to the individual instruments, I thought it have been more a generalised interpretation.
This thread has opened up a number of interesting avenues, I very much appreciate all the contributions.
Regards
Gary
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Post by garystrat on Sept 20, 2015 8:13:24 GMT
Hi Ian
Once again our posts have crossed, I was quite surprised at the quality of MIDI instruments in Logic pro, I think the real strength of BIAB is perhaps it's ability to generate music from simply inputting the chords, then being able to define those as instruments and either output an audio or MIDI file accordingly. Many people I know generate MIDI files by playing in the various parts with a keyboard, which is well beyond me.
I then realised that you can select the the specific parts or starts for a particular instrument by selecting and altering the chords to be played specifically for that. This is all a little theoretical as I was watching the PG Music's video for doing this only last night, so have not actually done it!
For someone with better musical skills than mine, this seems awesome.
Regards
Gary
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Post by sixchannel on Sept 20, 2015 8:40:28 GMT
Hi Ian - - I think the real strength of BIAB is perhaps it's ability to generate music from simply inputting the chords, then being able to define those as instruments and either output an audio or MIDI file accordingly. I then realised that you can select the the specific parts or starts for a particular instrument by selecting and altering the chords to be played specifically for that. Regards Gary Quite so. The F5 key is such a powerful tool. Use it to bring your instruments in and out, change instruments even, change Styles and a lot of other things. I do most of my "arranging" in BB before shipping the individual wavs to my DAW. Cheers Ian |
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Post by George Lewis on Sept 20, 2015 8:56:35 GMT
Hi Chaps,
According to PG, the Real Tracks are audio not midi. This means they are not included when exporting a project as a midi file and
can only be modified soundwise using audio effects.
The interesting question is whether BIAB has the equivalent drum (and other Real instruments) tracks as midi tracks ... or Super midi tracks ... don't ya just love marketing people !
I think drums are one of the things a good midi synthesizer does pretty well and the facility to be able to modify the drums so easily in midi is a big plus.
Maybe Viv can find the BIAB midi equivalent to your audio Real track ?
Cheers
George
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