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Post by garystrat on Sept 29, 2016 7:48:35 GMT
Hi Adrian
You're very welcome, often with this type of issue it's often just a simple connection/setting issue which take no time at all if you can see whats happening first hand. There may be a couple of other things that you have to sort for recordings to be the way you want them, but at this stage I would just focus on getting the input/output correct, it's just a case of dealing with things in logical steps. I always think the videos make it a lot easier, because you can see visually what is going on, some of them go a little over board with padding them out, but if it provides the overall help just go with the flow.
You have a nice little mixer there, I won't bog you down with detail, but the audio handling is probably at least equal to or better than your computers sound card. Sound processing is quite processor intensive, a fast computer with a reasonable level of fast memory is good when it comes to recording.
As you progress, my advice is to learn a little about what is actually happening, there is often more than one way of doing something and a little knowledge can often pay dividends.
Regards
Gary
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Post by George Lewis on Sept 29, 2016 9:15:22 GMT
Many thanks again Gary and George, you`ve both been a tremendous help. Just one thing I wanted to mention, the main reason for the audio cable from the PC out to the Mixer is because I`ve got all my BT`s on the PC and I put that cable in so that, when I`m playing, (not recording) I can play the BT`s into the mixer so that I`ve got the BT`s from the monitors and the guitar from the amp so, I just left it there for recording as well. ... Adrian Hi Adrian, I think you are on the right track. Use the monitors for the PC when you want better quality for normal listening ... but not when recording. Mind you a "a subwoofer, a centre speaker and 4 satellites." sounds pretty cool for listening to a backing track ! Regards George
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Post by philc on Sept 29, 2016 10:47:10 GMT
Cool for listening George my preference when actually mixing is pretty basic as I find a sub woofer can be very misleading. I have full 5.1 surround sound on my gear, it's never been used as there's no real point unless the listeners also have a 5.1 setup Phil
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Post by musketeer58 on Oct 6, 2016 0:33:01 GMT
How`s it going guys.
Just an update of where I`m at. I`ve been plugging the monitors into the wrong place on the mixer, it`s got a few different outputs but there`s one with a volume control which means that I can increase the input levels and reduce the volume of the monitors and by doing that, I`ve got the level of the guitar somewhere near the BT which is great. I`ve done a few recordings and done some editing on Audacity and I`m really enjoying it and speaking of Audacity, It`s amazing what you can do with it considering that it`s free. I`ve also got some other software which came with the mixer, it`s called Cubase AI 8, I played around with it but couldn`t get any sound out of it and it looks very complicated so, that`s on the back burner for now, I`ll re visit it some other time, I just want to get my head around Audacity first. One thing on Audacity that I haven't been able to figure out is how to use the EQ function, it`s just a blank screen so, I would really appreciate some advice on that if possible.
Thank you all again for your help and advice.
Cheers
Adrian
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 6, 2016 3:25:52 GMT
Hi Adrian, I think there is a "built-in" EQ effect if you downloaded the additional plug-ins from the Audacity download pages www.audacityteam.org/download/plug-ins/However there are a squillion different including free EQ plug-ins that can be downloaded. One I use which is pretty straight forward is from Voxengo. It's available together with many others from their "free" download page .. www.voxengo.com/group/free-vst-plugins/Just remember that because the undo function only lasts for the current Audacity session, it's a good idea to duplicate the guitar track before making changes to it, so you always have the original to go back to. In fact there is no reason why you can't have as many cloned tracks with different effects as you wish. Sometimes it is useful to quickly switch back and forth between tracks with different effects applied. BTW, I make frequent use of the in-built Hi-Pass and Low-Pass effects ... often instead of dedicated EQ. Regards George
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Post by musketeer58 on Oct 9, 2016 2:26:03 GMT
Thanks for the reply George.
I downloaded and installed the Voxengo EQ into the Audacity folder, it`s called Marvel GEQ but it doesn`t appear in the effects tab. I clicked on "add/remove plugins" and it`s there and enabled but I can`t get the actual eqaliser on the screen. There`s a help file on there so I`ll have a look in there. I saved the original recordings and I`m playing around with the different effects, it`s amazing what can be done. A lot of this is trial and error. Thanks again George.
Regards
Adrian
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Post by garystrat on Oct 9, 2016 7:46:38 GMT
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 9, 2016 12:37:43 GMT
Hi Adrian, As Gary says, the VST's have to be in a specific folder or in a special system path folder. However, the fact that it shows as enabled when you select Add Remove Plug-Ins suggests it is installed correctly. Sometimes you have to restart Audacity for the VST plugin to actually become active ... even though it shows as enabled. The GEQ VST is a file named Marvel GEQ.dll and should be in Audacity's Program folder in a folder called "Plug-Ins" or it may be in another folder under Plug-Ins called Voxengo or something similar.
So, first thing is to check in Preferences - Effects that all types including VST are ticked as enabled.
When you select the track or section of it, does Marvel GEQ show up as one of the effects ? You may have only one long list or there may be sub menus like "Plug-Ins 1-25" etc.
If all else fails, use Windows File Explorer to navigate to C:\Users\"your user name"\Appdata\Roaming\Audacity and there should be 2 files pluginsettings.cfg and pluginregistry.cfg. Rename these to old_settings.old and old_registry.old so they can be renamed back if necessary.
Restart Audacity and it should rescan all the plugins and VST's and you can then go to Add Remove Plug-Ins and re-enable them.
Regards George
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Post by musketeer58 on Oct 14, 2016 11:11:11 GMT
Many thanks for the replies Gary and George. My apologies for taking so long to reply but I don`t get a lot of time during the week.
Well, this is now doing my head in. I tried doing what that guy in the video did Gary but I havent got a VST plugin folder in my program files or program files x86 folders so, I created a folder in each one and put that DLL file in both but it made no difference however, the DLL file is in the Audacity plugins folder. The strange thing is that in the "add / remove plugins" part of Audacity, there are 2 marvell GEQ files in there but they are showing as "NEW" but when I enable them and then click "OK," the next time I go back in there, they are both back to "NEW" again so, they`re not staying enabled. Also, I had a look on the net and I believe that in "preferences" under the "effects" tab there is meant to be something to scan or search for new VST plugins or something like that but mine hasn`t got it.
I went into the C drive George and went into "USERS"\"MY NAME" but those files that you mentioned (\Appdata\Roaming\Audacity)aren`t there. I even deleted Audacity including the downloaded file and started again from scratch but everything is still the same.
Guys, as I said before, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out but I`m sure you`ve got more important things to do so, I think I`ll leave it as it is for now and just use the effects that are there already and re-visit this another time as I`m really enjoying getting to recording.
Cheers guys
Adrian
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Post by garystrat on Oct 14, 2016 14:55:25 GMT
Hi Adrian
Thank you for the reply, I would certainly focus on enjoying your playing.
I don't use Audacity, but I have just watched the video and the first step is to unzip the file so that you have two files, the first is (plugin name).dll the second is (Plugin name) - readme. Copy these to your desktop, form the the desktop copy them again to C:\ Program Files\VstPlugIns (these are both folders - "Program Files" should be in your root directory (not user directory) then when you open Program Files you should see a VstPlugIns directory, copy them into that. Also inside the C: root directory you should see "Program Files (X86), he suggests copying them into that to just cover all your bases.
IMPORTANT: you. don't create these directories, they should already be there as part of the Windows basic file structure.
It is pretty much standard practice to place VST files in the root directory so that all programs and users can use them, I think you will find most apps will look there for them.
I don't use a Windows machine these days, with a Mac they are normally placed in the root drive "Library" Directory.
Regards
Gary
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Post by silvervox on Oct 14, 2016 21:45:30 GMT
Hi Adrian WOW you have lost me.i think I will stick to just pressing the record button and hope for the best.Cheers mate. Peter
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 14, 2016 23:38:58 GMT
Many thanks for the replies Gary and George. My apologies for taking so long to reply but I don`t get a lot of time during the week. Well, this is now doing my head in. I tried doing what that guy in the video did Gary but I havent got a VST plugin folder in my program files or program files x86 folders so, I created a folder in each one and put that DLL file in both but it made no difference however, the DLL file is in the Audacity plugins folder. The strange thing is that in the "add / remove plugins" part of Audacity, there are 2 marvell GEQ files in there but they are showing as "NEW" but when I enable them and then click "OK," the next time I go back in there, they are both back to "NEW" again so, they`re not staying enabled. Also, I had a look on the net and I believe that in "preferences" under the "effects" tab there is meant to be something to scan or search for new VST plugins or something like that but mine hasn`t got it. I went into the C drive George and went into "USERS"\"MY NAME" but those files that you mentioned (\Appdata\Roaming\Audacity)aren`t there. I even deleted Audacity including the downloaded file and started again from scratch but everything is still the same. Guys, as I said before, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out but I`m sure you`ve got more important things to do so, I think I`ll leave it as it is for now and just use the effects that are there already and re-visit this another time as I`m really enjoying getting to recording. Cheers guys Adrian Hi Adrian, Your frustration is very understandable and it is difficult when all sorts of different things are suggested. However, although the built-in effects that come with Audacity are good, you can greatly expand your choices by using external plug ins so it could be worth persevering. Apart from being Godlike in appearance, I am a retired I.T. Manager, have used Audacity in Windows for around 10 yrs and still use it for all recording and initial mixing. This is only to reassure you that there is no guessing or assuming anything about how it works nor do I think there are any supernatural forces at play and messing with your setup ! And together we CAN solve this issue if you wish. End of pep talk ! For the moment, forget Youtube. For example, Audacity has changed the way it processes plug-ins since that 2012 video was done. Are you using Windows XP ? in which case those files will be under C:\Documents and Settings\<username>\Application Data\Audacity However, assuming you are using Windows 7 or greater have the latest standard download of Audacity which is 2.1.2 Build Jan 2016 and religiously use an up to date virus/malware program ... I also assume you are logged into Windows as a user with administrative rights and Windows file Explorer is configured to show the extensions of files ? If so, and unless you opted to do a portable install of Audacity which is unlikely, there will be a C:\Program Files\Audacity install folder. One of the folders under it will be Plug-Ins. ie C:\Program Files\Audacity\Plug-Ins. This is the first place Audacity will look for plugins including VST plugins and in your case is the simplest and most reliable place to put them. Some VST's may come with an installation program that puts them somewhere else, but I suggest you manually copy the dll file into the above Audacity Plug-Ins folder and delete it from the original place. It is best to have only one copy of the plugin dll file. Audacity will also look in the location defined by an environmental system variable called "VST_PATH". Unless you know what this means just forget it. For a standard user install, and for the above versions of Windows, Audacity will create a folder, C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Audacity. After Audacity's initial run this folder will contain several files including pluginsettings.cfg and pluginregistry.cfg. This is different from previous versions eg the 2012 version in the video. To confirm where Audacity is actually looking for these files, open it and choose menu "Help" - "About Audacity" then the tab "Build Information". Scroll down to the last sub-heading also "Build Information" and look for "Settings Folder". It should show the user id Appdata Roaming Audacity folder mentioned above. Next go to Edit - Preferences - Effects and confirm that all plug in types are ticked. Then enable any plugins in the Effect - Add/Remove Plug-Ins option. If any of the above is not the case or does not work, then, to use a technical term, your Audacity installation is stuffed and you should uninstall it completely and re-do the install. I'm quite happy to talk you through this if you want to give me a call, bearing in mind Perth is 3 hrs behind Wagga ! Let me know and I can PM my mobile number. Regards George
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Post by musketeer58 on Oct 20, 2016 5:01:28 GMT
How`s it going George.
Just wanted to let you know That I`ve tried everything that yourself and Gary suggested but still no luck and I think it`s something to do with my computer. The reason I`m saying this is because most of the files and folders that you mentioned aren`t on my computer or at least, I cant find them. The only one I can find is the "Audacity\Plugins" folder. The others such as "\AppData\Roaming\Audacity" isn`t there, I believe that there should also be an "applications" and a "VST Plugins" folder as well which aren`t there either. Another reason why I think it`s the computer is because it looks like I haven't got administrator rights for everything. I found a tutorial on the net on how to activate administrator rights and followed the instructions but it wouldn`t give me administrator rights for everything and I can`t understand why because this is my computer, I am the only person that uses it and my user account is the only one on it so, I just don`t get it. I did do a complete uninstall of Audacity including the original downloaded file and started from scratch, I also had a look in the "build information" tab in the help section and it listed the settings folder as "C:\Users\Adrian\Appdata\Roaming\Audacity" which means that it must be there but, as I said, it wasn`t showing when I looked for it.
This has become way over the top for me George, I didn`t think it was going to be this complicated. I see you`ve been busy with the "Audacity link to PC' thread and it`s a very interesting thread but I`m not sure if my issue can be resolved except for maybe getting a new computer however, if you do have the time to talk me through it on the phone, I would really appreciate it, I just don`t want to waste your time but if you could let me know if you think it`s a worthwhile exercise, that would be much appreciated.
Regards
Adrian
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Post by garystrat on Oct 20, 2016 7:55:10 GMT
Hi Adrian
Don't panic, there is probably nothing wrong with your computer or the way you installed it!
What you are seeing listed in the Audacity settings folder is perfectly normal, if you had two users on your machine each would have their particular configuration for Audacity in their own user folder. When you open Audacity it uses those settings exclusively for you, if there was another user they could have their own configuration which would be unique to them, if they looked at their path in Audacity they would see "C:\Users\(other user name)\Appdata\Roaming\Audacity" it is just the way the filing system works. In the same way you wouldn't want other users of your PC to have access to things like document files, so these would be kept in the document files for your user. With applications it is normal for all users on that PC to be able to access them, so they would be available from the system file folders, but the operating system will protect those files/folders from being changed unless one has "Administrator Rights".
“Administrator Rights (sometimes referred to as Privileges)” allow individual users to access the the system files and and make system wide changes, having this level of access is decided when you actually create the user account and you should have at least one “Administrator Account“ on your system. If your “C\:Users\Adrian\” account doesn’t have this level of access, i.e. it’s standard user account, it is probably preventing you having access to the system files/folders.
I can’t check this as I don’t have a MS Windows machine available, but George should be able to tell you how to get into the “Settings>Users” to see what type of user account you have.
Regards
Gary
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 20, 2016 9:01:44 GMT
Hi Adrian, As Gary said don't panic ... plenty of time for that later !
It's not possible yet to say what the problem is, so rather than guessing, let's try to progress this by phone. We can arrange a suitable time by PM. Cheers George
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Post by scs5479 on Oct 21, 2016 17:08:32 GMT
Hi Adrian,
You may not be able to view the AppData folder as it is a hidden folder. If you go to Tools > Folder Options then click on the View tab and set the Show hidden files and folders to on then apply, this should then let you access the AppData folder and possibly some of the other folders mentioned. Hope this helps.
Simon
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Post by scs5479 on Oct 21, 2016 21:02:00 GMT
Hi Adrian,
I tried installing the plugin from the Voxengo site and found I had the same problem as yourself when adding the plugin from the effects menu in Audacity but after reading a couple of documents on the web have sorted it out. If you are running a 64 bit version of Windows 7 or similar, Audacity will only work with 32 bit versions of VST plugins. The first thing to do is to delete the old plugin from the plug-ins folder then when you have downloaded the plugin on your computer from Voxengo, locate the file and click on it to start the installation programme and when you reach the part with the components to install only tick the box that says VST(32 bit). When asked where to install to type in C:\Program Files(x86)\Audacity\Plug-ins When installation has finished, start Audacity, go to the effects menu and add effects and then enable the new effects and press ok. Restart Audacity and the effects should now show up in the effects menu.
Hope this works for you.
Simon
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 21, 2016 21:39:13 GMT
Hi Simon, If only you had seen this thread a day ago ! The "missing" appdata folder was because of the default Folder view options compounded by the Windows default of not showing the menu that contains the Tools option. Also Voxengo installing by default only the 64 bit plugin was indeed the VST issue. Now that 64 bit versions of some plug ins are becoming more widely available, it is something for those with 64 bit Windows to be aware of. Fortunately, we managed to sort both out via a fairly long phone call. Regards George
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Post by scs5479 on Oct 21, 2016 22:08:29 GMT
Hi George,
Glad to hear that you and Adrian managed to get it sorted out
Regards
Simon
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Post by musketeer58 on Oct 22, 2016 3:38:37 GMT
Yes, we finally did get it sorted out, many many thanks again George, we were on the phone for about an hour and thanks to everyone else for your input.
As I have a 64 bit operating system, I downloaded the 64 bit plugin, right?? WRONG! I thought that`s what I should have done however, Audacity must be a 32 bit program that will obviously run on a 64 bit system but it seems that even though it will run on a 64 bit system, it doesn`t like 64 bit plugins so, if you have a 64 bit operating system you will need to download plugins for a 32 bit system because 64 bit plugins won`t work. I`m now looking around at other plugins to play with and really glad I got into recording.
Cheers all
Adrian
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Post by garystrat on Oct 22, 2016 8:27:10 GMT
Hi Adrian I'm pleased to hear that George and Simon have managed to sort it out for you, this information was right below "How do I install VST Plug-ins" in the Audacity Manual page link I sent you under "Why do some VST Plug-ins not work or display correctly?", I assumed you had read this. manual.audacityteam.org/man/faq_installation_and_plug_ins.html#Why_do_some_VST_plug-ins_not_work_or_display_incorrectly.3FFor anyone else with this problem, it doesn't seem to mention anything about hidden files, it is probably worth mentioning if they still need to be shown? They also invite you contact them if having problems with installation of this nature, which is quite impressive considering it's freeware! Regards Gary
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 22, 2016 11:55:53 GMT
Hi Gary, As a matter of interest, unfortunately in Adrian's case, that section of the manual was not very helpful. (Quality of the documentation is well behind the quality of the program !!)
It reads ... "On Windows and Mac OS X, Audacity is a 32-bit application so won't see 64-bit versions of VST plug-ins, even on 64-bit operating systems."
which one would assume means if a VST plug-in was 64 bit it would not show up in the Audacity Plug-Ins Manager.
In this case, the plug-In was showing and could be enabled, but reverted to "New" ie not enabled, after exit from the Plug-In Manager which alas gives no indication whether a plug-in is 32 bit or 64 bit.
A bit perplexing and not surprising it required some detective work to solve.
The manual also states that for Windows, Audacity will also look in the path specified by a system environmental variable "VST_PATH" for additional plug-ins, but after testing it is clear that it doesn't.
Hopefully the Audacity team will continue to improve error handling and documentation for VST plug-ins.
The "hidden" system folder is really only an issue for someone who wants to delete the plug-ins cfg files and force a rescan. Normally that wouldn't be required and presumably if they get to that stage will know what needs to be done.
Regards George
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Post by garystrat on Oct 22, 2016 17:50:50 GMT
Hi George Yes, perhaps they should have been clearer, particularly as you can see the 64 bit plug-in showing up in Audacity, I guess they meant “seeing” in an operational sense! Your point on error handling and documentation is a good one, the above information looks like a good case for your " knowledge base" section? I had a look at the environmental variable VST_PATH and it appears there are quite a few people baffled by this, but I did come across this link: www.robotplanet.dk/audio/vst_folder_location/ It suggests that the VST_PATH environmental variable is an internal part of the Audacity code which looks for the path in the registry under HKEY_CURRENT_USER. This makes some sense as I couldn’t see it listed in the Audacity preferences and they state the Mac equivalent to be in the library files, but it’s not entirely clear to me how the entry should look to achieve this. Hope this may be of some use. Regards Gary
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Post by musketeer58 on Oct 23, 2016 2:00:22 GMT
Hi Adrian I'm pleased to hear that George and Simon have managed to sort it out for you, this information was right below "How do I install VST Plug-ins" in the Audacity Manual page link I sent you under "Why do some VST Plug-ins not work or display correctly?", I assumed you had read this. Regards Gary Hi Gary. I did read that part of the manual that you posted and in there it said that 64 bit plugins won`t be seen but as George mentioned they were in there in the "add remove plugins" section, that`s why I thought they should be ok. At the time I just couldn`t figure out why it couldn`t be enabled but the good thing apart from resolving this issue is that during the course of this thread, even though I`ve only scratched the surface, I`ve learned a hell of a lot about audacity and it`s a huge thank you again to everyone who contributed. Cheers all Adrian
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Post by George Lewis on Oct 23, 2016 5:44:41 GMT
Hi George Yes, perhaps they should have been clearer, particularly as you can see the 64 bit plug-in showing up in Audacity, I guess they meant “seeing” in an operational sense! Your point on error handling and documentation is a good one, the above information looks like a good case for your " knowledge base" section? I had a look at the environmental variable VST_PATH and it appears there are quite a few people baffled by this, but I did come across this link: www.robotplanet.dk/audio/vst_folder_location/ It suggests that the VST_PATH environmental variable is an internal part of the Audacity code which looks for the path in the registry under HKEY_CURRENT_USER. This makes some sense as I couldn’t see it listed in the Audacity preferences and they state the Mac equivalent to be in the library files, but it’s not entirely clear to me how the entry should look to achieve this. Hope this may be of some use. Regards Gary Hi Gary, That's a good idea about a "knowledge base" section or perhaps thread for Audacity users. I did a search of the Audacity bug report database as this difference between published documentation and what actually happens should be addressed. Sure enough it is on the "to do" list that the plug-ins manager does sometimes show VSTi and VST3 plugins though they can't be enabled as Audacity currently does not support them. No actual mention of 64 bit VST plugins, but there are other issues with Windows 64 bit OS as well so, all in good time ! The VST_PATH issue had me intrigued since I think it has been part of Audacity since it's inception. After further testing it boils down to if any directory name in the path has a space in it ... it isn't searched. The path I was using was "Audio Projects/Audacity_Plugins". Since environmental variables date back to DOS which didn't allow spaces and had a limit on directory and filename name length, this has been a source of ongoing trouble and even URL encoding substitutes a %20 for a space. I generally use an underscore or hyphen just in case but on this occasion didn't. Looks like the way in which Audacity gets the path from Windows doesn't take spaces into account. Something else not documented though perhaps not many bother with it. The registry keys work, at least in Windows 7 32 bit, but have to be created manually and it's not a good idea to encourage users to make changes to the Windows registry. The registry hive is the chief weapon of Microsoft to oppose the principle that a good operating system will be simple, stable, self evident, transparent and with a clear and reliable interface for application developers to interact with. It has always been a growing monstrous hodge-podge nightmare and one of the worst Operating system functions ever dreamed up. Rant over ! cheers George
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Post by garystrat on Oct 23, 2016 7:11:14 GMT
Hi George
All in all it seems like a good exercise, I fully agree with you about the registry, no one should mess around with that unless it's fully backed up and they know what they are doing.
Of course Mac's have a "Library" which works in a similar way, to my mind it's far more ordered, but can give a lot of grief if it's messed around with. I believe in being well covered when it comes to backup, I use the Mac Time Machine on one disk and a full main disk cloner on another (in event of failure this can be made the boot disk or used to re-instate the main drive). Time Machine has proved it's worth on many occasions as you can recover files that have not only been deleted, but based on their state at a given date.
I think the principal behind the registry is that it's neither open nor transparent on the basis that it's supposed to be the developers province and designed to protect the user, which is why they tend to make it hidden. We both know that theory is one thing and practice is another when it comes to a smooth running system.
Audacity obviously has a strong following, but it does seem to be a little quirky and have a quite a few limitations. Probably most user are quite happy to accept it "as is" in terms of functionality, but it I think it is getting left behind with most people now using 64 bit systems, perhaps better to spend a little and just get something that works out the box (or download) ?
The "rant" is perfectly acceptable and often obligatory in maintaining a level of sanity!
Take care
Gary
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