Wound or Plain Third and Why?

[Cruachan]

Hi,

I have noticed a few of you prefer using a wound 3rd rather than the usual plain string.
Just wondering why and what are the advantages?
Does this impede manual bending of notes on the G string?

If using a 0.010" - 0.046" gauge set I am assuming the wound third would be 0.018" which is only 0.001" thicker than the plain G in the Newtone Electric Masters set I am using at present.

Regards,
Mike

[shadfan4]

Just MHO I have always felt a wound 3rd was necessary for early and probably later Shads tunes, as the "timbre" for 4 wound strings always seemed the "proper" tone, HBM didn't really get into shredding/bending etc, so wouldn't have needed a plain 3rd, and bending 13-56's would need digits of the same steel, my Epi LP and Gibbo es335 both have plain 3rds as are necessary for those bends required for blues/jazz/rock. For some reason also wound 3rds don't seem to have the same tuning problems unique to that pesky "G" string.

There will be a good mix of "for & against" plain 3rds as it really is a personal choice but I think for Shads it should be wound. Both my Strats (76' US standard with Kinmans & MIM 50's Classic both have wound 3rds)

Mike.

[driftin]

hiya mike,
for my part at least I did try a wound third , do not remember the gauge But on my brason strat with kinman marvin pickups the volume was down compared to the remaining 5 strings and I found it almost impossible to bend the notes up.......I stuck with it for maybe 3 or 4 months and then went back to a plain third, again with regards to tone, for me the disadvantages out weight the advantages

regards

les

[bernie]

Hi Mike,
After mounting new pickups with vintage staggered Alnico-5 magnets I had the feeling that the 3rd plain string (.017) from a standard .010-.046 set sounded much to loud and harsh compared with the rest of the strings. So I decided to check out a wound 3rd (.018 - custom build). Don't ask me why - yes, it's 0.001" thicker than the plain .017 - but the sound was now more quiet, balanced and, fortunately, much better. That's why I went for a wound (.018) 3rd string.
Manual bending of notes is not as easy as with a plain .017 but still good viable - for my needs not very important on a Strat with floating tremolo though.
Kind regards,
Bernie

[Roger...]

Hi Mike,

I too use an 0.018 wound 3rd. I found that with the vintage style staggered pickups with a high pole under the 'G' string, the plain 3rd was a little louder than the other strings (the B and e have low poles), and also it sounded a little dull acoustically. I changed to a wound 3rd and it cured my problem on both counts. It is very slightly harder to bend though.

I use D'Addario 10-46's with the 0.018 wound 3rd (EXL110w). It works for me.

Kind regards
Roger

[rogera]

I've used 11 - 49 gauge with a wound third for years. If you have vintage staggered pickups the wound third gives a balanced response across all strings.

Yes, it is a little more difficult to bend but I found that you quickly get used to that.

[Cruachan]

Hi,

I won't mention you all by name, you know who you are, but it never ceases to amaze me how helpful and informative the responses from the membership of these forums can be. Thank you, my friends, you have told me all I needed to know.

I think I'm going to give the wound third a go. It's perhaps odd, but when I installed the Newtone Electric Masters .010-.046 onto my new American Standard I was struck by how dull the G string sounds when struck acoustically as compared to how the same string sounds on my two American Deluxe guitars. Indeed, I thought I might have a duff string until I started to read about others experiences. I say 'odd' because, when struck together, the 6 strings appear to resonate a little more on the Standard. However, the G string sounds okay when the guitar is plugged into an amp. Could it be that the improved resonance, and the fact that the strings appear to sing more when played, is partly attributable to all three bridges being configured as floating rather than set hard on the deck?

Thank you again.

Kind regards,
Mike

[DaveC]

Hi Mike,

Wound strings give less "output" than plain strings. Your third string pickup poles will be good for one or the other, but not both.

If the pole is intended for a plain string (the usual choice) then you will have to raise it when using a wound string, or the volume will be lower and possibly "dull sounding".

A trick for "raising" the pole is to place a sliver of mild steel (approximately 1mm thick and cut from a 4mm or 5mm circular rod) on top of the pole. Magnetism will hold it in place but you can also use a small dab of superglue if you wish. Some people suggest a small circular neobydium magnet (easily bought in packs of 10 on TWKAS) but these are very strong magnets and would have a disproportionate effect.

Regards,
DaveC.

[Cruachan]

Hi Dave,

Interesting. Why is the output less and is this not, in fact, desirable? The loudness of the plain third is often given as the reason for making the switch. The wound string will be a little thicker (.018" as opposed to the plain .017"), but the gap between the bottom edge of the string and the top of the 3rd pole of the pickup remains about the same and, as Roger ('rogera') has mentioned, gives a balanced response across all strings. If necessary, I will be adjusting the height of the 3rd bridge saddle to conform with the 9.5" fretboard radius. The latter will be checked with the understring gauge. So, the gap between the bottom of the wound third and the top of the 3rd pole should be maintained.

Anyway, I feel it's worth a try if only to improve the oversensitive tuning characteristics of that string. I experience that slight annoyance on all my guitars.

Regards,
Mike

[driftin]

like I said the 3rd wound string on my guitar was certainly quieter than the others.....strange ! or what

regards les

[bernie]

Seems to be a certain contradiction concerning the laws of physics - thicker strings are supposed to be louder because of more output due to more mass.
I suspect wound strings with equal gauges are sounding 'certainly quieter' possibly based on different vibration behaviour compared against plain strings.

Regards,
Bernie

[garyallen]

Hi Mike,Another factor with dull wound thirds is at the nut slot not being wide enough,I noticed this on a strat while playing it unplugged,it seemed to need more room to vibrate freely ,I also had a habit of setting the action a little low which is OK on certain guitars but not a strat. regards gary

[DaveC]

Hi Mike,

The manufacturers of pickups design them to give a predetermined field strength under each string. The relative difference in a set of strings is catered for by relative pole heights but, if you don't have your pickups custom-made, the manufacturer will have to make assumptions about the mix of your strings and your fingerboard radius.

Nowadays, an average radius of 10" will cover most situations but averaging out the strings is a different matter. Strings 1 & 2 are always plain and strings 4,5 & 6 are always wound -- so that's bit is easy. Nowadays string 3 is usually plain and modern pickups assume this. Back in the 50s it was usually wound and the pickups of the day reflect that.

If you want to experiment with a wound 3rd string and a modern pickup, then you have no choice but to adjust the field strength of the 3rd pole -- otherwise it's not a sensible comparison. The trick with the sliver of metal makes it easy test the two possibilities. All you have to do is decide which you prefer. Nobody else can tell you what is right or wrong: just go with what sounds right to you.

One other point: don't forget that the magnetic field of a pickup still influences the vibration of a string -- even when you aren't "using" that particular pickup.

Regards,
DaveC.

[Cruachan]

Hi Dave,

Very interesting info - thanks!

My American Standard sports three Custom Shop Fat 50s so, after reading your post, I'm wondering whether these can be regarded as being Modern or Vintage? I have been assuming the latter to be true.

Regards,
Mike

[Roger...]

Hi Mike,

The Fat 50s follow the old vintage stagger pattern with a high pole on the 'G'.

Kind regards
Roger

[Cruachan]

Hi Roger,

So, to be a little more accurate we should be referring to the CS Fat 50s as 'Vintage style', just as you described them to be in your earlier post, Roger: charliehall.proboards.com/post/191636/thread

Consequently, and from what has been said, one can expect a slight reduction in output from the wound third providing the distance from the pole remains the same.

Kind regards,
Mike

[glyderslead]

Hello to you all.

I've been very interested to read all your various views and solutions regarding the use of plain /wound third strings.

Here is another angle:-

Does the use of a compressor sort out the problem of varying string volume levels?

Cheers

Mick

[Roger...]

Hi Mike,

Quote from Mike:-
Consequently, and from what has been said, one can expect a slight reduction in output from the wound third providing the distance from the pole remains the same.

Yes, there will be a slightly lower volume from the wound 3rd than the plain 3rd over the 'G' pickup pole. I think this gives a better overall balance with the other strings and also sounds better. Try it, you have nothing to lose (only the price of the string). You can always revert if you don't like it.

Kind regards
Roger

[peterbower]

I noticed a output volume drop when I fitted a wound third, not sure of the reason but I guess its about how much metal is above the pole piece. Is it the windings or the thinner core wire, I'm no expert

Peter

[driftin]

well at least that's you and me peter.....lol

regards

les

[Cruachan]

Nov 13, 2016 10:54:38 GMT Roger... said:

Try it, you have nothing to lose (only the price of the string). You can always revert if you don't like it.

Hi Roger,

That is my intention. However, ordering is proving a little difficult. Despite assurances to the contrary I haven't found a way on the Newtone website to order single strings. I want to order 6 wound 3rds and 6 (e) strings (bust one a few days ago on one of my Am Deluxes - not the first time - I wonder if I'm overtightening the locking tuner as the the string snaps close to the tuner - now that I think about it, wouldn't that suggest another cause as it broke adjacent to the tuner rather than from within?). I've sent them an email requesting some guidance.

Kind regards,
Mike

[bernie]

Nov 13, 2016 11:37:48 GMT peterbower said:

I noticed a output volume drop when I fitted a wound third, not sure of the reason but I guess its about how much metal is above the pole piece. Is it the windings or the thinner core wire, I'm no expert

Peter

Very likely the winding wire around the core wire has additional damping characteristics.

Regards,
Bernie

[Cruachan]

Nov 13, 2016 11:44:24 GMT driftin said:

well at least that's you and me peter.....lol

regards

les

Hi Les, Peter

Don't despair, you both may prove to be correct

My suspicion is that this will turn out to be pickup-dependent. The CS Fat 50s are designed to emulate those venerable vintage pups of the 50s, so I'm presuming that the drop in output from the 3rd pole with a wound 3rd overhead may be just enough to restore overall balance.....not that it sounds bad right now with the plain third. We'll see.

In fact, right now I am more than happy as you will see if you care to nip over to read my latest post in the Tech Info forum

In some ways, at times I could be accused of being my own worst enemy as I do like to experiment...LOL!

Regards,
Mike

[Cruachan]

Nov 13, 2016 9:49:25 GMT glyderslead said:

Here is another angle:-
Does the use of a compressor sort out the problem of varying string volume levels?

Hi Mick,

You know, I think you are right. I have a 'Keeley Limiting Amplifier GC-2' immediately before the H&CSE in my signal chain. Works great and also allows me to boost the signal occasionally when needed. The presence of light compression may be be why I have not been so aware of any dominance of the output from the plain 3rd.

Thinking again of Les and Pete's comments, wouldn't a compressor tend to lower the output from any dominant string? That being the case it may turn out that the wound 3rd has no audible effect other than to to have the compressor reduce the output of the other strings to match, or is this muddled thinking?

Regards,
Mike

[Ed Cornish]

Mike,

Can I ask where you are getting your Newtone Electric Masters guitar strings from please. I would like to give them a try.

I can remember the first mistake you made as a beginner ( am going back to about '65) was to cut round wound strings to length only to find they sounded really awful when you tried to tune them. I was explaining to someone only the other day, that was probably the reason that many professionals (Dylan etc) had all those strings waving about in the breeze at the tuners!

Thanks

Ed

[Cruachan]

Hi Ed,

Just do a search for 'Newtone Electric Masters' and you will soon find them. I order from 'Strings Direct' but they are often waiting to be restocked. You can register an interest, however, and they will let you know when they are available. Also, I think you can order direct from 'newtonestrings.com', although I have not done so...as yet.

Regards,
Mike

[ALopez46]

Hi

In the flat string all the material is steel.
The winding string has part of steel and part of Nickel.
Electromagnetic behavior should not be the same.
There may be the secret of difference.

Regards

Antonio - ea7hj (Sorry, i don't speek english)

[bobo]

the wounding of a 4th string is usualy so thin that he wears out after some "bends" .
That is one of the reasons why the manufacturers abandon the wired fourth for the electrics guitars.
A plain string gives a more brillant tone because she weighs less.

[Cruachan]

Order has been placed and the strings are on their way! Excellent service! It was pointed out that while you can order single plain thirds you do have to order a full custom set if you want the wound third. However, on this occasion Newtone were kind enough to accommodate my request.

Mike

[Cruachan]

Nov 14, 2016 2:46:11 GMT bobo said:

the wounding of a 4th string is usualy so thin that he wears out after some "bends" .
That is one of the reasons why the manufacturers abandon the wired fourth for the electrics guitars.
A plain string gives a more brillant tone because she weighs less.

Hi bobo,

Did you mean the 3rd string? If the wound third does wear out as quickly as you are suggesting them that might be a concern. However, as with all experiments, it needs to be tested before drawing any conclusions.

Regards,
Mike