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Post by rogerbayliss on Mar 4, 2021 15:19:20 GMT
In the future, if some of you can equip yourself with the EQ2 Source Audio pedal and the Neuro Desktop software (free), I could give a link - as I did on Didier's Forum "Fan des Shadows" to download about forty presets for the titles of the 60s, 1, 2, 3 of the Shads if you have this equipment. Many Fans in France have done this and they have expressed great satisfaction. And all this is free of course!!! Thanks Google Translate Bernard Bernard , I do have a Source Audio EQ2 and would be interested in this link to find out more Thank you ROGER.
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Post by garystrat on Mar 4, 2021 15:29:24 GMT
Hi Bernard,
Of course no problem, I watched the "Tuned Filter Theory" video and managed to follow some it.
Regards
Gary
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Post by georgemc on Mar 4, 2021 16:07:42 GMT
Hi Bernard, Your link for your settings for a Source Audio EQ2 would be appreciated.
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Post by gruntfuttock on Mar 5, 2021 0:22:36 GMT
Hello Bernard. Thank you for all the information that you have given! I would very much appreciate a link to your setting if possible. Many thanks. Dave
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Post by garystrat on Mar 5, 2021 8:34:05 GMT
Hi Bernard,
Sorry I missed your post about the amp, I'm on domestic duties at the moment and will have a good read through it little later on! LOL
Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 5, 2021 8:49:36 GMT
Hi Gary, Dave, George, Roger, ... others Here is a load of 32 presets V6 for the EQ2 Source Audio : app.box.com/s/c13vyqfh5rgom7fm4myfhqh1vglapj5pYou must connect the pedal by USB to your PC and launch the small program `` Neuro Desktop '' to load the presets into the pedal The 32 presets are already very close but it is necessary to adapt each preset to your guitar, your touch and your amp..of course This adaptation is generally done by modifying the ''Q factor'', it is the most rational way to enhance the `` harmonics '' of the preset. The second correction that can be considered is to modify the Gain on the frequencies ... (with discretion) the ideal is to keep the frequencies chosen because they correspond to the tone of the tune and sometime to the action of the filters RS 106 and / or 127 of Aroad Do not fail to give me your criticisms and questions ! I have worked since this version again on some tunes. Some tunes do not yet give complete satisfaction but the great consolation is that one hears tune after tune a very similar sound coming out of his amp ... Enjoy Bernard
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Post by rogerbayliss on Mar 5, 2021 10:49:39 GMT
Thank you Bernard , will take a look in due course. Is it a device backup file , as it does not seem to be a preset file ?
Roger
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Post by gruntfuttock on Mar 5, 2021 12:18:43 GMT
Hi Bernard. Many thanks for your link. What type of file is it? I can download on my Mac, but am unable to open it. Dave
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Post by bernardj on Mar 5, 2021 13:24:51 GMT
Dave, Roger others the link posted this morning is indeed a ''back up'' for around thirty Shadows presets for a PC, so it's a ''device Back up You have to do the '' load device Back up '' option in the free Neuro Desktop software that you have to connect by USB to the pedal. I think you know how to use this little software ... otherwise we will find a tutorial on YT But rest assured, this little software is very simple and powerful : www.sourceaudio.net/editorsandfirmware.htmlin the page that I indicate to you, there is a version of Neuro Desktop for PC and another for MAc the back up that I put is therefore for PC ... (the back up devices have the suffix `` .eqbf '' indifferently) So I put a link for the ''back up'' device that can be opened with the Neuro Desktop of the mac: app.box.com/s/0qz02ni0ht30ic4w1praakpyd325q3hfThis is a slightly older version than the one I made for the PC. The Neuro Desktop PC only opens the bank created by a PC and the Neuro Destop Mac only opens the bank created from a Mac So you now have the link for the Mac bank Keep me posted .. these are small computer pb which have nothing to do with music and That sound and which unfortunately annoy us sometimes .... lol ... Do not hesitate if you have difficulties ... Bernard
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Post by garystrat on Mar 5, 2021 23:36:35 GMT
Hi Bernard,
The translation is fine, I’m able to follow technical references without any problems!
I Knew that Selmar amps were used around 1959/60, but not about Hank using the vibrato input to hone the structure of his sound!
About 9/10 years ago I unexpectedly stumbled across a Selmar that was being privately repaired and refurbished, I recall it sounding pretty awesome, but I wasn’t able to find out anything about the history or owned it. That’s also very interesting about the cut to allow what must be naturally generated speaker frequencies in 80-300 Hz range, but I’m not sure how that works, I guess the speaker is responding in some way to it’s own characteristics?
I always find discussions about Vox amps around that time a bit of grey area, I would have thought that JML decisions were more likely based on competitive designs and commercial considerations, Dick Denny was a bit of maverick who wasn’t afraid to try new ideas and do things differently (even if Tom Jennings didn’t always agree! LOL). I think one of his significant decisions was to do away with negative feed back, this always struck me as quite radical thinking and added much to the Vox character.
I referred back to some 10 band graphic EQ settings that Ronnie Gusafsson was using in his videos and that was + 6/7 dB in the 1 - 2 kHz area, which broadly ties in with your own findings. I’m doing something similar by boosting the highs at 1.5 kHz with a PSP Noble plugin, my inclination is to try setting it to the 1.7 kHz you mention to see if it makes a difference, the Noble also has the cut at 300 Hz, so I may have a couple of things working against each other that I need to look at!
The use of the Noble was based on the great thread and information from “fenderwim”, who did a remarkable job of analysing the Abbey Road Studio setup!
With plugins there is some complexity as to what’s happening in Helix Native and where the cuts are placed in respect of other plugins, I now think that the 300 Hz Noble cut wasn’t placed in the right position as it was behind the speaker IR in the chain, after your information I put it directly on the speaker IR (but overlooked the Noble setting), which combined may not be helping my case?
I don’t have your expertise and background, but I think we do have a similar approach and interest.
Best regards
Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 6, 2021 9:03:06 GMT
Gary As you will understand the bandwidth of Hank's guitar is very specific and does not totally belong to the Vox fillings as we can get. My theory ''tuned filter'' allows to reproduce in a satisfactory way the ''tonal balance'' for each title But the sound structure that has been `` established '' in the Selmer, AC15, AC 30 4/6 has a lot in common and the fact of buying a similar amp does not allow full access to this sound structure. . it is necessary in addition to apprehend this specific band pass whose main characteristic is a strong attenuation in the first 2 octave of the guitar (80/160 Hz and 160/320 then of a significant Boost of the medium band around 1700-2200 Hz and finally a rapid drop in treble above 3500 Hz With the arrival of the AC30 Top boost this structure was modified by the fact that this amp could add bass and that its medium band widens when you increase the bass and treble. This hollow of the medium moves between 400 and 800 Hz depending on the action of bass and treble This particularity made it possible to obtain very original tonal balance and we notice that often the hollow of the medium are in agreement with the key of the tune I let you experiment with patience ..lol ... the equalization that I propose for the EQ2 and of course I stay there to help if necessary Obviously I will post other tunes in application of my theory which will allow us to discuss or contest this modest work because I am of course open to all suggestions I also read on this site the remarkable work on Aroad which you speak of ... I took a good profit from it and I also supplemented it with rich exchanges with Patrice Bastien who translated a lot of documentation on Aroad for us ... regards good WE
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Post by gruntfuttock on Mar 6, 2021 14:19:16 GMT
Hi Bernard. I found the following settings on the internet. Do yo have a similar format that could be used with a ten band EQ?
EQ Hz 31.25 62.5 125 250. 500 1000 2000 4000 8000 16000 Sound A -12 -12 -10 -2 0 -2. 7 0 -12 -12 Sound B -12 -12 -10 -10 -2 2 2 -6 -12 -12 Sound C -12 -12 4 2 - 6 -1 8 6 -12. -12 Modn Sound -12 -12 2 1 - 2 4 -3 -8 -8. -12
Man6 5hanks. Dave
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Post by rogerbayliss on Mar 6, 2021 15:09:44 GMT
Bernard,
I have managed to get your EQ2 presets into my EQ2 and have sorted out my MIDI controller to select the presets so I can access them all . I havd not had chance to try the sounds out and will try later next week when I have some free time to do that.
I see the EQ2 is using 'Split Mode' . I take it the red graph output is for amplifier and Blue graph output to your computer ?
Thank you
Roger
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Post by bernardj on Mar 6, 2021 16:03:44 GMT
Gary Good news Yes, actually my presets works in Split mode the reason is that I make one route for the tone of the guitar and another for the tone of the echo In the video of my set www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardXPVMS9g4I use this solution and I mix the 2 signals in the Morley box This solution therefore makes it possible to treat the `` tonal balance'' of the Echo independently because it happens that the digital echoes have a slightly metallic tone. If you do this solution you can then take the B output of the Morley Mix - which will be the replica of the A - to go to your sound card .. Output A will go into your tube amp. I made a lot of recordings this way, it acts like a line output You can do more simply with less material and a very good result ... eg. you plug your guitar into input A ... to your Echo (eg All Collins or other) in which you operate the mix Your echo then goes into input 1 of EQ2 then output 1 goes into your tube amp ...!! It takes longer to write than to do but as guitarists have a good command of pedals in general I am not worried Do not hesitate to test, I remain by your side so that you master this very simple and efficient little system Regards Bernard
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Post by bernardj on Mar 6, 2021 16:20:07 GMT
Hi Dave If I understood correctly the frequencies which are proposed are Fixed frequencies .. the basis of my theory is to choose frequencies that belong to the key of tune that you want to play ... For example if you want to play a tune in E (Shaddogie) you will mainly work with the following frequencies 82/165/330/659/1319/2794Hz who fondamentals frequencies in E It is therefore necessary that your EQ can be positioned on these frequencies and the EQ2 is able to do this very easily, by memorizing 128 presets In addition, it is necessary to be able to make good '' musical '' curves that the EQ is '' Parametric '' The figures you quote 62.5 125 250. 500 1000 2000 4000 correspond approximately to B / B / B etc ... so they will only favor the resonance of a tune in B ... Unfortunately there is not much tune in B with the Shads ... the ideal is really to be able to adjust each preset according to the Key of the tune I can to be of a good help to provide the "" screens "of the presets ... this can already give an idea of the thing I stay at your side and I am very happy with the interest in my theory Regards Bernard
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Post by garystrat on Mar 6, 2021 22:58:37 GMT
Hi Bernard, Thank you for the additional information, I think we may be talking at cross-purposes, my aim is to try and replicate the “tuned Filter” system entirely in software using Fabfilter Pro Q2 plugin in place of the Source Audio EQ2: www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q-3-equalizer-plug-inI was going ask you a bit later on when you had sorted people out with the Source Audio EQ2 files, if you would be kind enough to post a visual of the EQ curve or “Q” settings of say “Wonderful Land ” so I could try to closely replicate the principal in software? It should also be possible to work in split mode In Ableton by using two audio tracks with input 1 going to both and mixing them, the alternative is to create three tracks with input on the first and use sends to the other two (they are already created in Ableton with mixing knobs incorporated in the tracks). I’m using a Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre USB which has pretty good DAC converters and low latency, which perhaps gives me a little more tolerance to play around with. The Helix Native I use for my amp modelling is a plugin version of the full pedal and the patches are fully interchangeable: line6.com/helix/helixnative.htmlWhilst it can be more complex than some other modellers, there is fairly realistic interactivity between settings and controls that can also provide for amp model variants. I can actually send the output to an amp as I have Laney Lionheart L5T 112 amp, which replicates Vox AC15 specification and characteristics pretty well, even down to the tone control which acts in the same way as the Vox “Cut”. My reasons for staying in software is that’s more practical for me to use headphones in terms of noise levels in a domestic environment, although the Laney is a hand wired class “A” 5 watt amp it’s still pretty loud! Regards Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 7, 2021 11:11:15 GMT
Gary I think the translation played tricks on me ... lol There is no problem to use an EQ Fab Filter Several fans have experimented with good results because the physical and acoustic principle is exactly the same I myself did a lot of testing in my DAW and produced a lot of recordings like this. The only thing that matters is to place the frequencies that correspond to the key of the tune you want to play. For Wonderfuland it will be necessary to tune the filter in G and put the good gains to the good ones with the good ''Q factor'' Of course, I would like to make your experience easier for you and I will quickly give you for wonderfuland a screen shot of my EQ2. I take care of it quickly Bernard
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Post by bernardj on Mar 7, 2021 11:26:17 GMT
Gary here is a tables of frequencies : app.box.com/s/mrpbwcwxyhmx01ad0inb182zt3yxwuqyHere is copies screen for my presets app.box.com/s/8rwzdp6b4fzgp26bwwuj75xllw7njtvythe red curve is guitar The blue is effects (But it depends a lot on your effect. it still works to decrease the bass and treble - and boost the freq medium slightly because the response curve of Hank's Meazzi was narrow ... ) Nota bene : I have worked a lot since this upload to improve. However this base is very correct to work Do not forget that with the settings of the Q factor and a slight touch-up on the gain you will be able to adapt the curve perfectly to your Strat and to your way of attacking the strings. Regards Bernard
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Post by garystrat on Mar 7, 2021 16:26:30 GMT
Hi Bernard,
Thank you so much, I know that literal translations don’t always come across as intended! LOL
I understand the importance of frequency positioning relative to key of the the number regarding the theory, in terms of the “Q” setting and I want to get it as close as possible to your findings to prove that this will work in the same way the with modelling software, which it seems you may have done already!
I believe that you are using the “Q” curve to tune the discrete harmonics and timbre to bring out the finer details that have always been so elusive, which to me seems an extremely interesting audio engineering approach, combined with a discerning ear of course. I have learnt a sufficient amount about EQ’ing and frequencies to have a fair idea of how to work with them and what plugins to use, but I think this could be the next stepping stone in my personal learning curve.
I’ll give you a well earned rest while I go away and try to work it all out, as you put it so well “with a little patience” LOL
Best regards
Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 7, 2021 18:48:34 GMT
Gary ''I believe that you are using the “Q” curve to tune the discrete harmonics and timbre to bring out the finer details that have always been so elusive''Thats right, that's exactly it !!! It all seems a bit tricky when not manipulating but becomes very easy and encouraging when the experience begins, because it takes longer to write than to do ... lol It is a great satisfaction to hear his very responsive guitar and his tube amp singing for each tune. All this for me will be perfectible but arriving on more than 40 titles to date with a fair approach of the ''tonal balance'' of each tune by pressing only on my EQ2 pedal gives a lot of hope and especially the desire to touch his guitar constantly Now you will be able to experience all this quietly and I remain available for your comments I also hope that others, like on Didier's 'Fan des Shadows' forum will come on the adventure ... it has created a lot of positive links and rich exchanges ... Of course, I will soon post other sound examples Best regards Bernard
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Post by garystrat on Mar 8, 2021 8:41:31 GMT
Hi Bernard,
I have now tried the Wonderful Land EQ in Fabfilter Pro Q3 (I mistakenly put Q2 in previous post) and it’s definitely bringing out the discrete harmonics and timbre that always seemed to be lacking, but I’m not quite there yet!
The visual images you sent were a perfect way of me being to duplicate your theory, but transferring them in a workable way to Pro Q3 proved to be more of a challenge. Putting the echo on another audio track and arming it for input 1 worked perfectly and should be very close to blending it the way you describe, I’m not so sure there is so much difference to having it in the track, but that could be down to my using two instances the Echo Cat plugin in an Ableton rack running in parallel to give 6 heads (5 in use)?
I was quite surprised to find that when I turned the Helix Native plugin off, how much of the core tone is still there!
At the moment the overall tone needs thinning down and doesn’t sound quite “glassy” enough (I hope that makes sense), I think this is probably something to do with needing more drive, which seems less reactive in the Helix Native amp modelling. I found in the amp modelling it also helped to reduce channel drive by quite a bit, but I will continue to play around with this when I get more time as I have few things that need to be done today.
Thank you so much for your dedication and kindness in sharing this with us, I very much look forward to any further advice you may have?
Further sound examples will be very welcome!
Best regards
Gary
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Post by garystrat on Mar 8, 2021 21:40:02 GMT
Hi Bernard,
Problem solved, I was using the wrong Pro Q3 processing mode, I needed to set it to “Natural Phase”.
Regards
Gary
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Post by garystrat on Mar 9, 2021 8:27:53 GMT
Hi Bernard, I have made some further tweaks both in Helix Native and the Redwirez IR speaker options (reducing bass mainly), then I found that blending using a different audio track with echo plugin didn’t work as well putting it in the track (I think this is a plugin thing!), suddenly it all came together and that tonal magic is there! In software one can do things a little differently and the chain that works for me is the EQ first, Helix Native and then echo, I also have SoundToys “Little Plate” at the end of the chain but this isn’t use at the moment. www.soundtoys.com/product/little-plate/Using “Natural Phase” has proved the best processing method for Pro Q3 and does add something, but isn’t making the difference I originally thought. I will now continue to make Pro Q3 patches for the other numbers, this should be more straightforward now! I really appreciate benefiting from all your experience, this has really given me an incentive to learn more about this and very much hope that we can continue to stay in touch, based on this first test I think your theory certainly works! Best regards Gary
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Post by gruntfuttock on Mar 9, 2021 13:54:47 GMT
Hi Gary. I don’t have an EQ2, so can’t follow Bernards advice. Based on what you have learnt are there any settings you could convert to a Ten Band EQ? At present I’m also experimenting with a graphic EQ on my Katana and using the Gemini 111 to take care of the lower. Range. Dave
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Post by garystrat on Mar 9, 2021 16:42:12 GMT
Hi Dave, I’m afraid the theory doesn’t work unless you are using a parametric EQ, it’s based on being able to set the frequencies to precise EQ positions relating to the key of the number and then adjusting the “Q” setting curve to balance the tone. The “Q” setting is the curve either side of where the frequency is set, the frequencies are based in fixed positions on a graphic EQ and there is no adjustment for the “Q” setting. You don’t specifically need a Source Audio Q2 pedal, which from Bernard’s images has adjustable frequency positions and ability to set “Q” though the software, the Fabfilter Pro Q3 I use is fairly advanced and takes a little getting used to, but there are more simplified versions if you are using a DAW in your setup (depending on DAW there may be a suitable plugin that comes with it). In practice there is nothing terribly complicated about this as Bernard has been kind enough to provide charts with frequency points and “Q” settings in his download files above, all you have to in Pro Q3 is create a point for each frequency based on his settings, set frequency level (+/- dB) and “Q”, there is usually a box of some sort where you can enter this numerically, once that is done the point positions itself. In addition to this you need to set what type the point is, I will keep this simple by way of explanation, the middle frequency points are generally set to “Bell” which means that there is going to be a curve either side and in this case your would set the far left frequency point and far right as “Low and High Cut” respectively (they also can be “Shelf”, which simply means it tails off, rather than designed to cut frequencies). Once you do that the curve should dip and cut off at frequency set by the “Q”, again this will happen automatically if the “Q” is set for those specific frequency end points, it’s really not that daunting! There are other types of parametric EQ, I have another “Noble” plugin by PSP which is parametric, but the layout is completely different and you wouldn’t be able to input the settings in the same way (although it works in a similar way). If you have a look at the Pro Q3 I’m using in the link below, it will give you an idea of what we are talking about. www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q-3-equalizer-plug-inThis what the “Noble” plugin looks like to give you some idea: www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/equalizers/psp_nobleq/I mentioned the “fenderwim” thread earlier, he shows settings for these that are intended to provide some of the Abbey Road Studio EQ’ing. What the “Q” setting does is provide a specific curve between the frequency points, which if set correctly can balance out the harmonics and timbre of particular instruments and give them more identity and separation in the mix. The thing I’ve always found helpful when learning about EQ is to look at the way a frequency chart is set out and then try to visualise the points described above, you will also find charts on-line that describe the working frequencies for instruments, so it's normal practice to cut any signal that falls outside working the range of a particular instrument. In some instances you would deliberately cut the working range too, i.e if a guitar sounds muddy, cuttings lows will usually help and not clash with instruments that are designed to work in the low end range (Bass Guitar). I hope that helps! Regards Gary
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Post by cockneymike on Mar 10, 2021 19:37:38 GMT
Good evening all,
I must admit that most of this went right over my head, but I have to say that when I loaded these presets into my EQ2, I was pretty impressed with the sounds.
Currently I have a single output going from Output 1 on the EQ2 into my H&C echo and then to my AC15 amplifier.
Excuse my ignorance, but do I ignore output 2 from the EQ2, or do I need to mix that with the output of the H&C unit before sending it to the amplifier ?
I know I am just thick, but I dont understand the purpose of the output 2 and why the EQ seems so different from output 1 (if someone could kindly clarify).
Thanks
Mike
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Post by Jono on Mar 10, 2021 21:24:39 GMT
Hi Mike, Yes you do need to mix both channels & then into your amplifier or Daw. Hope this helps. Jono
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Post by gruntfuttock on Mar 11, 2021 12:49:22 GMT
Hi Gary. Thanks so much for taking the time to attempt to explain things for me! I'm in unknown territory here!! There is a parametric EQ on the Katana Tone Studio, but really don't understand it fully, so will persevere with the Ten Band EQ. Thanks again, dave
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Post by dakwah on Mar 11, 2021 13:29:23 GMT
Hi Dave
I'm with you on the para eq. Beyond on ears
Stan
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Post by bernardj on Mar 12, 2021 16:21:11 GMT
Hi Dave Atlantis is a tune in F According to my theory, the filter is therefore tuned to the frequencies of F with the red curve the blue curve is the one that goes with the 2nd output of the EQ2 in my Strymon Volante in order to process the echo separately ... the two meet in the box of ABY Morley In this first step, with which I proposed to discover my theory, the ABY Morley box was plugged directly into an RME 800 sound card. It is therefore only the work of my theory that we hear in the recording - neither amplifier, nor microphone - because my goal was to listen to exactly what happens when we grant the filtering with the tone of the tune . only a compressor was added in my DAW (Cubase 8.5 Pro and UAD) Of course with the own sound of my Amplifier which is an AC15 H1 TV Heritage the sound is "magnified" but to start this theory it seemed more honest to me to hear only the filtering. The guitar I used is a Strato Replica `` Thibaud Imbard '' 1962 with CS 1954 pickups In other future posts we will be able to listen to the system with my Vox AC15 Heritage H1TV amplifier thank you for being so kind to follow these posts
Bernard
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