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Post by gruntfuttock on Feb 25, 2021 9:23:48 GMT
Has anyone heard of this guy before? He's a Frenchman with an amazing "Hank Marvin" sound! Unfortunately the dialogue is all in French but it's worth looking at some of his videos on YouTube. Didier - I'm sure you might be familiar with this mans work. Dave
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Post by didier on Feb 25, 2021 9:51:54 GMT
Yes I am, he is a member on my french Shadows' forum, and writes a lot of things on how to get "that sound". But it's all in french !
Didier
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Post by glyderslead on Feb 25, 2021 11:01:15 GMT
Just listened to his recording of Rounding The Cape. He has a very good sound....and of course talent.
Mick
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Post by georgemc on Feb 25, 2021 11:40:34 GMT
Atlantis is a very good example, very close.
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Post by derekdelboy on Feb 25, 2021 12:56:26 GMT
SELECT and COPY the FRENCH text and then Search TRANSLATE FRENCH TO ENGLISH in Google. Then paste your FRENCH data/text ... you should get a reasonable translation .... I hope that helps Derek
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Post by garystrat on Feb 25, 2021 16:09:59 GMT
Atlantis Translation
The interest of this research is not to find the sound of a Shadows title, but to "generate" the harmonic balance of each title by having the ability to play as a guitarist, with a real amp that will make the bottom of your ATLANTIS title of the Shadows is of an extremely complex sound texture. For the first try of my theory on THAT SOUND, I choose to see if it worked and allowed me with this "key" of setting to hear a tonal balance as close as possible to the one that made us revenge.
The sound we hear on this video is the one that occurs in the EQ2 of Audio Source, mixed with Strymon Flying echo and makes us discover without dip work, so recording is done ''online', without amp or micro...you can imagine what you can hear on the amp since one of the 2 mixing Morley box outlets can be connected to my AC15 vox Heritage on the EF86 input, equipped with filtering cells advocated by Patrice Bastien and the other outlet goes to the map sound Firepace 800.
The sound we hear on this video is the one that occurs in the EQ2 of Audio Source, mixed with Strymon Flying echo and makes us discover the work of the filter without any dip, so the recording is done on the line, without amp or micro...you can imagine what is possible the ATLANTIS title of the Shadows is of an extremely complex sound texture. For the first try of my theory on THAT SOUND, I choose to see if it worked and allowed me with this "key" of setting to hear a tonal balance as close as possible to the one that made us revenge.
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Post by gruntfuttock on Feb 26, 2021 0:06:17 GMT
Thank you all for your replies! A special thanks to Garystrat for his translation. Dave
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Post by sandra on Feb 26, 2021 2:49:10 GMT
But it's all in french ! Didier That's the trouble with you French people Didier, it is as if you have a different word for everything Seulement en plaisantant bien sûr
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Post by garystrat on Feb 26, 2021 7:22:47 GMT
Hi Dave,
I think what he is saying is that the recording on the video uses the Vintage Sounds VST’s (or similar), but is is not returned back through the amp as part of the recording. If I understand it correctly he splits signal into two paths with one going to the recording and the other going to the amp for monitoring purpose so it sounds natural to the guitarist.
The idea appears to be that when playing the guitarist responds to the character of the amp as part of the overall sound, by separating out the playing style and accenting from the amp one is more aware of the complex textures that comes from the effects chain independent of amp character and harmonics. He seems to say the the amp has a frequency dip which influences what we hear and by getting the tonal balance right prior to this one is able to recognise and replicate the sound at that stage more accurately?
Regards
Gary
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Post by rogerbayliss on Feb 26, 2021 10:25:30 GMT
The Strymon Flying echo is the Strymon Volante echo he is referring too. I thing Volante is some reference to Flying I read sometime ago. They are great echos and I have one and have got a MIDI controller to alter the head levels with and access all 300 presets. Dave Robinson has been using the Volante recently and thinks it is very close in sound to a real echomatic he has. But only when the pre amp of the echomatic is in line . If he takes the echomatic out the sound changes , because the preamp of the echomatic provides some magic he says. You can improve the Volante echomatic sounds with eq .
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Post by rogerbayliss on Feb 26, 2021 10:29:16 GMT
The EQ2 of Audio Source will likely by the Source Audio EQ2 pedal which does parametric and graphic EQ with a limiter built in .
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Post by rogerbayliss on Feb 26, 2021 10:56:48 GMT
If you watch the Atlantis video , his gear is a Source Audio EQ2 and Voiante Echo and using a Morley ABY Switchbox. He appears to use the Morley to send signal to a DAW and also his amp. I think he says thus is the DAW recording The graph in the video shows the eq settings for the EQ2 in the app for that pedal. Notice the dip around 800hz.
Appears he adds some compression in the DAW .
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Post by gruntfuttock on Feb 26, 2021 22:21:11 GMT
Thanks again Gary. That’s very useful. Dave
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Post by bernardj on Feb 27, 2021 9:43:08 GMT
Hello
I am very honored that you pay attention to my work I am a French musician living in Provence, near Marseille. For two years, helped by participants in the Didier Parrot Fan des Shadows forum, I have modestly tried to find explanations to approach the magic of Hank's sound. I tried to think about this challenge not as a guitarist, or an electronician, but as a sound engineer since I am a composer and producer. Above all, I do not claim to have any truth, but I simply try with the help of explanation, demonstrations, recordings, to share with fervor certain points of this challenge. I learned a lot on your forum and I would like to say that I sincerely believe that all the advances that can be made for '' That sound '' can only be made by compiling the experiences and remarks of all those who are looking about the problem. I don't need to make a career on Y tube at all, I just need to share subjects that still make us dream. I will do everything possible - thanks to Google translate - to communicate and especially activate the translations in my You Tube videos Take care of you !!!
Bernard COQUELET
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Post by rogerbayliss on Feb 27, 2021 12:39:08 GMT
Nice to hear from you Bernard anc well done , you have a great sound usinb your equipment
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Post by bernardj on Feb 27, 2021 14:44:20 GMT
Hi Gary
''If I understand it correctly he splits signal into two paths with one going to the recording and the other going to the amp for monitoring purpose so it sounds natural to the guitarist.''
that's right the record is made in Cubase Pro Regards
Bernard
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Post by garystrat on Feb 27, 2021 17:11:54 GMT
Hi Bernard,
Good to hear from you, there has obviously been a lot of research and thought gone into this over the years, the end results you get speak for themselves!
Your approach as a sound engineer/producer/composer makes sense to me now, it seems the theory behind what you’re saying is that if you get the EQ’ing separated out as it would be prior to processing by the amp or player, when adding the effects they start to come to life in a way that becomes more recognisable as “That Sound” from the start and therefore more accurate ( quote - your guitar will suddenly become very reactive under your fingers)?
It seems as though you have used this technique to evolve a set of EQ patches for the Source Audio EQ2, then built up the sound via Waves Abbey Road Studio and/or other plugins in a similar way, finally adding the echo, amp and guitar in that order?
The thing that is confusing me slightly is that you say there is no amp being used in the recorded sound, the 800 Hz dip I believe was characteristic of some Vox AC15/AC30 models, is this to enhance some modelling that is taking place?
I’m only self taught, but over several years I have become very interested in music production and studio techniques, 2 years ago I switched to Ableton Live Suit, which I have just upgraded to the latest version 11. I have found this to be a great tool for simply playing around with idea’s and it has a “Rack” plugin which may be of interest. Any secondary plugins that are placed in the “Rack” process in parallel, so you could say have two instances of the same plugin, one wet the other dry and then blend them, but it also has a lot of other uses.
If you are familiar with Apples Logic pro and MainStage it’s an all in one blend of the two, but has many unique features in the way it handles plugins generally and surprisingly I found learning and getting into the more advance features and techniques not too difficult. The earlier criticism was that it lacked some of the more advanced comping features, but the latest release has addressed much of this.
Regards
Gary
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Post by bernardj on Feb 28, 2021 16:06:20 GMT
Hi Gary ''it seems as though you have used this technique to evolve a set of EQ patches for the Source Audio EQ2, then built up the sound via Waves Abbey Road Studio and/or other plugins in a similar way, finally adding the echo, amp and guitar in that order?
The thing that is confusing me slightly is that you say there is no amp being used in the recorded sound, the 800 Hz dip I believe was characteristic of some Vox AC15/AC30 models, is this to enhance some modelling that is taking place?''
The main axis of my theory is the tuning of the frequencies of your equalizer on the fundamentals of the key of the title you are playing. For example for a title in key of A, you will have to prepare to work on the frequencies 110-220-440-880-1760 by applying or removing gain on these frequencies and by adjusting the slope of your parametric filter in EQ2. I show examples in my videos.
When you have done this and without even having used an AC15 or 30, by taking directly from the output of your equalizer, you will be amazed at the resonance of your guitar which will approach Hank's guitar if you put the correct ones gains on the frequencies (positive or negative depending on the titles) and if you have put the right slopes on each frequency.
So, I have to prove this theory made the recording directly at the output of EQ2 .
After you have all the possibilities to take the sound at the output of your Vox or to add simultations in your Daw. What to remember is that if you already have the right `` tonal balance '' in your EQ everything can only be better your Strato, your Amplifier, your vintage sound Echo and if you put a good Neumann microphone in front all this equipment.
What concerns my theory is `` how to make the right tonal balance to find the right resonance for each track '' I have tried all of this on 40 Shadows tracks and it works flawlessly
For those who have an EQ 2 with its little free programming software -Neuro Desktop- I uploaded it to the French site of Didier Parot `` Fan des Shadows '' - all the presets for 40 titles, for free of course because I have no interest in Source Audio ... !!! lol
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Post by garystrat on Feb 28, 2021 22:57:29 GMT
Many thanks Bernard, now I get it (I think … LOL)! When you mentioned “key” I wasn’t interpreting it in the musical sense and the videos are not easy to follow due to language barriers, this is an extremely interesting concept, if I may I will go back and study the videos in more depth now that I know more of whats happening! I’m really interested in the theory behind all this, particularly now you’ve proved it works flawlessly in practice. For my amp modelling I’m using Helix Native Essex AC30, this is the plugin version of the Helix Pedal, with either a Celestion Vox V212HWX Open 2X12 or Redwirez MIXir 3 IR speakers. The former only has Shure SM57 options , but with Rewirez I use the U87 as it doesn’t have the U47, but I guess this is close enough? redwirez.com/products/mixir3-ir-loaderI tried to get onto Didier’s “fans des shadows” website, but it seems to be either Facebook or Twitter based and I’m not really into any of that type of media. That was very generous of you to let fellow fans benefit freely from all the work you have put in. Regards Gary
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Post by gruntfuttock on Mar 1, 2021 0:06:15 GMT
Hi Bernard. When I started this thread I hoped you would see it and respond. So many many thanks!
Google translate
Bonjour Bernard. Quand j'ai commencé ce fil, j'espérais secrètement que vous le verrez éventuellement et nous donner des informations. Tellement, merci beaucoup! Dave
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Post by didier on Mar 1, 2021 8:53:30 GMT
I tried to get onto Didier’s “fans des shadows” website, but it seems to be either Facebook or Twitter based and I’m not really into any of that type of media. It's not the case, but you you have to register on the site www.fandesshadows.com as gruntfuttock just did. Didier
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Post by garystrat on Mar 1, 2021 9:11:38 GMT
Hi Didier
Many thank for the information, I was searching for "fans des shadows"!
Regards
Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 1, 2021 10:22:34 GMT
Gary, Dave, others the language barrier can be alleviated with a little patience by Google translate
''For my amp modeling I am using Helix Native Essex AC30, this is the plug-in version of the Helix pedal, with either a Celestion Vox V212HWX Open 2X12 or Redwirez MIXir 3 IR speakers. The first one only has Shure SM57 options, but with Rewirez I'm using the U87 because it doesn't have the U47, but I guess it's pretty close?'' Before even talking about equipment - we all have our choices according to our tastes and our finances - the first idea and to be familiar with a ''parametric equalizer'' with which we are therefore able to choose the frequencies on which we want to work, the positive or negative gains that we will ask for and the slope with which we will make the filters work. The main reason is that my theory is based on physical and acoustic principles Once this is understood, if we take a title like Peace Pipe in A, we will prepare the frequencies which correspond to the fundamental of A: 110-220-440-880-1760 we add in the settings the fact of being able to involve a cut in the bass and a boost in the treble due to the filters RS106 and 127 from Abbey Road All the songs in A will have this base of adjustments but of course NONE will have the same gains or the same slops ... to obtain the specific ''tonal balance'' for each title of our idols The fact of working on the fundamental frequencies physically produces the right resonances by favoring or disfavoring all the corteges of harmonics Of course I made many tests with a VOX AC15 H1TV heritage on which with Patrice Bastien we put a device of resistors and capacitors to attenuate the bass-below 300hz- because the Bright filter of the Vox does not cut the frequencies in the right place, it cuts way too high- I also made tests with a Strato Replica 1962 made by my luthier equipped with a CS 54 pickup then a Strat made in China with Micro Apache Bare Knuckle as well as a Strato 1977. the recordings were made in several ways -1: directly at the output of the Morley box mixing the 2 sides of the EQ2 - one EQ rating for the guitar with its Red curve, the other EQ side for the Strymon Volante with its blue curve. -2: With a Neumann microphone in front of the Vox AC 15 -3: With a Peavey Classic 30 and Neuman amp in front -4: From the 'Send' output of the Peavey Classic effects loop.
In any case, and by mainly adapting the "Q" or Slope setting of the filter, we arrive at a very interesting result for the "tonal balance" of each track. But the most important - for me - is that a lot of fans on Dider's French forum "Fan of Shadows" experimented with this theory and got a result that they endorse.
One thing is certain is that if you get a very close tonal balance on 40 tracks by simply pressing a simple pedal and as long as you play correctly with a good Strat and a good echo and amp, you will find a real pleasure to make your guitar sound. After that, I can of course detail this research much more, but it is probably advisable to take things calmly by practicing the necessary tests to get familiarity with this new approach.
Regards Bernard
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Post by garystrat on Mar 1, 2021 19:23:13 GMT
Thank you so much for taking the time to do that Bernard, being self taught I tend to probe and learn things that are directly relevant/peripheral to what I’m doing at the time and expand on a progressive basis from there. Whilst I realise there is nothing structured about this, I’ve found it easier with better retention because I’m doing it with a specific purpose in mind. I can usually work things out, but it sometimes takes a little longer to fill in the knowledge gaps (actually, probably a lot longer) ! LOL I understand the physics of the note frequencies, but they don’t naturally relate to Keys for me at the moment, so I have found a reference chart that seems to correspond to the “Peace Pipe” Key of A example give (Octaves 2 through to 6): professionalcomposers.com/note-frequency-chart/This looks to be a pretty good resource for people like myself. The Heritage bass cut is an interesting one, in the software modelling I usually do this to remove any muddiness on guitar, but only at around 130 Hz and will certainly try this before getting into what for me is the more complex nature of this. I have the VOX AC15 modelling in HN and will switch to this, the IR’s in the Essex models are based on Celestion Blues 2 X open backs, Rather than the Silver versions, so I probably wasn’t too far away. Reading about Source Audio EQ2 this is described as one of the best and of course has the patches, I normally use PSP’s Noble plugin, but will probably have to switch to my Fabfilter PRO Q3 plugin for the trials. For quite a while my go to guitar was a Mexican Strat fitted with a Callahan block and CS 54’s pickups, I also had an American Standard with Bare Knuckle Apache’s, but a friend at the time had Abigail Ybarra that came as standard with a NOS 56 and I always felt they sounded quite unique and special. Due to age I’ve now rationalised my guitars down to a 2018 American Fender Elite with stock noiseless PUP’s, perhaps not everyones choice, but it has a lot of features and a lighter body which once I got used to it suits me well. Certainly, there is wisdom in your suggestion to take things calmly and playing around with it for a bit! Once again, many thanks! Best regards Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 3, 2021 8:24:08 GMT
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Post by bernardj on Mar 3, 2021 11:31:19 GMT
Hi Dave, Mick, George, Derek, Roger, others .. here is an example of my theory of the "tuned filter" thanks for watching
Bernard
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Post by rogerbayliss on Mar 3, 2021 15:40:17 GMT
Hi Dave, Mick, George, Derek, Roger, others .. here is an example of my theory of the "tuned filter" thanks for watching
Bernard
Pretty good Bernard definitely the right sounds I recorded Sleepwalk last year, but my recording is live recorded with my phone camera. Welcome to listen.
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Post by garystrat on Mar 3, 2021 23:07:54 GMT
Hi Bernard,
Once again, thank you so much for your kindness and patience, it's really appreciated!
I have already tried and getting good results by increasing the amp modelling low end cut to 300 Hz, I thought I had AC15 Heritage modelling in Helix Native, but they were both AC30 Heritage with norm or bright channel choices. I have used the Heritage bright channel and increased Bias to bring it closer to class A operation, also increasing the Bias X which gives more tube style compression, these tweaks seems to suit the modelling well.
Echo wise I have two instances of WavesFactory Echo Cat plugin in an Ableton Live “rack” running in parallel which gives me the option of using up to 6 heads (each with level adjustment), on all the controls I want to act in common as a single echo I assigned them to macros so both plugins synchronise those settings simultaneously. I then saved the whole “rack” as a hybrid echo for general use, which so far seems to work OK.
The chart in your link is better laid out and confirms that I was correlating them correctly, in terms of the negative/positive gain and “Q” on each setting do you have any method for that or are doing it by ear from cold?
Best regards
Gary
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Post by bernardj on Mar 4, 2021 10:26:12 GMT
Gary Let me take a little time before I answer Hi Roger It's a good job and performing in front of the camera, live is difficult. you do it well. I think if in the future you want to be able to improve - I'm not talking about perfection of course..lol - the tonal balance for every song you want to play, my ''tuned filter theory'' can be helpful. You just need to be able to work with a parametric equalizer. Although I was able to go deeper into ''That sound'' with the equipment in my studio, I was fortunate to be able to develop my theory when Source Audio made its EQ2 pedal which can contain 128 presets and can be used with a good tube amp. Of course, I have no interest in this material , it's only because it is the first to offer a real possibility in live as in studio to "tease" That sound'' .. Unfortunately, for the moment I only explain in French on You tube the basis of my ''Tuned Filter theory'' : www.youtube.com/watch?v=seXzHdrNsP8 But, for those who give me the pleasure of following this work, I want to spend some time translating and communicating in English. To show the good foundation of my Theory, I put here a small example of Sleepwalk that you heard on my You tube video. But this example is not played on a Vox !, it was intentionally recorded on a Samsung smartphone. the amp is a Peavey Classic 30..and the Strato is a Strato Squier made in China (however the pickups are a Bare Bnuckle Apache set) -So not much that corresponds to the right material to play '' That sound '' ..lol...: app.box.com/s/zyt7a46uvnm4gc0f5pgvzipg0uwyejiu In the future, if some of you can equip yourself with the EQ2 Source Audio pedal and the Neuro Desktop software (free), I could give a link - as I did on Didier's Forum "Fan des Shadows" to download about forty presets for the titles of the 60s, 1, 2, 3 of the Shads if you have this equipment. Many Fans in France have done this and they have expressed great satisfaction. And all this is free of course!!! Thanks Google Translate Bernard
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Post by bernardj on Mar 4, 2021 13:48:45 GMT
Hi Gary
Sorry to be a little technical but despite the language barrier (thanks Google trad)
from what I have been able to analyze, verify and discuss with specialists in vintage amplifiers, Hank has `` built '' from the years 59-60 the specific '' structure '' of its tonal balance by playing on the vibrato input of the Selmer Amplifier.
This input undergoes a strong cut in the bottom of the spectrum so as not to interfere with the loudspeaker in the range 80-300 Hz approximately and to allow a good clarity of the sound when the vibrato effect is engaged. However it appears that he continued to play in this entry, even with the vibrato effect in `` by pass '' mode. It is very likely that during his visit to the Vox AC15 he wanted to find this type of structure which is therefore "in our ears" from the first successes of the group. But cutting the bass on a 15w amp to play on stage is a delicate thing and careful listening - and spectrum analysis - of Hank shows that there is a `` boost '' of the medium frequencies, this which makes sense to “pass” in a mix and compensate for the “truncated” area in the bass. Most of the fans (me too at the start 2 years before) only had to worry about cutting the bass in the 300 Hz zone (which almost corresponds to the E first of the first string) but we quickly realize that it is not sufficient and the action of boosting frequencies around 1700 Hz for an AC 15 makes perfect sense. Very often in addition to the boost of this frequency range was added the action of the EQ RS 127 Aroad in the 2.7 / 3.5 kz The EQ RS 106 of Abbey Road could in addition intervene in different ways on this cut of the amp (cf Midnight) ... These EQ RS 106 could also finish making "drop" the treble (or rather the brightness of the strato) It is these modest observations which can - as you do it yourself it seems to me - push us to seek in a specific way such as I implemented it in my theory. In any case, it is very interesting to discuss this subject, because there are many tests that have been done in other ways and opening new ones can only be beneficial.
Best regards Bernard
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