colljaw
Member
The Controller
Posts: 426
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Post by colljaw on Oct 10, 2009 13:56:24 GMT
Before writing this I decided to read members comments on a previous thread regarding the 02 and then give my opinion of the Glasgow show in relation to members posts. Cliff and The Shads at the 02 Fri 25th by soldig (Thread started on Sept 29, 2009 4:12pm) charliehall.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2473Steve: Hank's playing was perfect and I agree about Travelling Light being brilliant. In fact the harmonies were great in every song. Scott & Glen: I found Hank's sound flat and was not impressed with the echo on Apache. David JM: I did notice Cliff's open tuning for three chorder Travelling Light. Why? It will be interesting to compare Hank's echoes on the official DVD. Charlie: The echo on Woderful Land wasn't too bad. I agree that Hank's tone was good and Cliff's voice was excellent. The repeat at the end of The Savage was fine. Hank's Burns 12 string sounded like a cheap guitar on Don't Talk To Him but was better On The Beach. Paul: While writing this I have been listening to pirated clips on YouTube to try and compare with my memory of what I heard last night. A clip of Apache from the Dublin show sounded much better with more echo. Paul, I'm sure the TVS3 is a wonderful piece of kit and most members here are rather biased to EFTP and Charlie. I have never really been a Cliff fan and went last night because I believe that it would be my last opportunity to see The Shadows live. I have seen them many times over the years and this is the first time I have not been happy with Hank's sound. Maybe it was where I was sitting in such a huge venue? The DVD will tell.
I was speaking to a couple in their late 30s at the interval who were Cliff fans and they were surprised that The Shadows toured without Cliff. I suppose I can understand that as they probably only thought that The Shadows were Cliff's first Backing group. Obviously the audience were a mixture of Cliff, or The Shads, or Cliff and The Shads. There was more applause when The Shads did their solo spots, especially the second one and I felt for Cliff, but when he reappeared the louder applause continued until the end of the show. I thought Shadoogie and Sleepwalk were brilliant with no problems with echo. Some notes in sleepwalk seemed to have a light swell at their beginning if anyone can answer that one as I know Hank was not using a pedal. Anyway folks it was a great night out and I'm sure that anyone intending to go to a future show will not be disappointed! Regards, Jim |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Oct 11, 2009 1:41:57 GMT
Hi Jim,
Glad you enjoyed the show.
It seems that the echo at the end of The Savage has been fixed, it would be interesting to know if it was intended to be cut off to begin with but now someone has changed their mind about it, good if that is the case. Also, the fact that you could hear that echo means you should have been able to hear the correct echo levels on other tunes, that is, if they were correct, so the amount of echo in Apache still seems like it is too low. I can't understand why this is so, when I know for a fact that Hank likes a lot of echo on that tune. The first time he ever tried my programs, he said immediately that Apache needs more echo, so it was changed there and then, and it was also increased again after some time using it for live shows.
Now it would make anyone wonder how Hank could get everything so right in the early days, indicated by everyone universally approving, and he now seems to do the opposite much of the time, it's almost like he is playing mind games with everyone, because he can! I can't believe that he hasn't got the ear to get things right because he is playing better than ever in my opinion. But, it isn't up to me to say anything to try to put it right.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by bill on Oct 11, 2009 7:36:58 GMT
Hi all,
It hardly seems worth starting a new thread so I hope this is OK. I changed my mind a while ago and decided I would go and see The Shadows for what may well be the last time (even if they did have a frontman, never seen them before with one). So I went yesterday to the Saturday concert in Glasgow.
I enjoyed it. They sounded wonderful. It was nice to see Bruce and Hank standing together on stage playing which they did several times. Brian was also playing well. They included the same jokes and chat as in the other concerts plus one or two relating to Glasgow. I did worry whether it would be a Cliff show with The Shadows very much in the background but it wasn't and I enjoyed hearing the backing music and fills during the Cliff numbers.
One for the collectors here that I don't think has been mentioned, Hank played a strat at the start of the second half that had a newspaper print on it (I couldn't see but I'm guessing it was The Scotsman with a heading about their 50th anniversary).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2009 7:45:22 GMT
HI ALL ,I can't wait until they come to ''OZ'' & listen for my self & record a bit of sound as well on a mp3 or such .... BUT in fairness to paul &TVS,, we know for a fact it does in fact produce the good's which is also evident on some sound-files we have heard & witnessed on this site & the perth site , so I guess it must be a hank -sound-man or such thing?  ?.. & maybe the sound is hitting hank's ear's correctly??,,,, but not so in the audience????would he be wearing an in-ear piece as many singer's do or relyimg on the fold-back's? ... I am sure in a live performance where it is played once only it would be hard for a person to analize & If hank played using a Q20 as he has done in the past or the tvs ... In a live concert I am not sure you would hear any difference ,between the two unit's as there is not a lot of difference anyway !!! ,we are not talking chalk & cheese here, THEY are both excellent unit's & programed by equally excellent ''sound -guru's''! CHEERS OZ.............barry.. |
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Post by Charlie Hall on Oct 11, 2009 7:45:43 GMT
Hi Bill,
I think it is OK to start a new thread as it is a different venue being discussed, although it does make it a little more difficult to compare with comments from the other shows.
Hank did play that Strat at the other shows and I think it is the Scotsman Strat.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Charlie Hall on Oct 11, 2009 8:00:28 GMT
Hi Barry,
I think you are right, it must be down to Hank or the tech to decide on the echo levels. With the Q20 it was down to Hank and myself, once it was set, no one except me knew how to change it (although they could have asked me).
I think that the Meazzi switch on the TVS is working well, although I can't say that it is producing exactly the old sounds as in some ways I think Hank's sound is better than ever, including on records.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by alanmckillop on Oct 11, 2009 8:19:45 GMT
I too was at the Glasgow concert and decided against posting negatives such as opinions on sound, colour of guitars, echoes etc etc, which have turned into battlefields in the past, although I do have opinions which I'd share privately. What I will say, it was the best concert that I've ever attended, everything was superb, yes there were some minor glitches, but it didn't detract from the concert and Cliff's voice was better live than on the CD, so even if you're undecided at this late stage, go or you might regret it when it's too late. Here's a pic of the Scotsman strat of which only three were made and Hank was presented with his in 2004.  |
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Post by alanmckillop on Oct 11, 2009 8:23:22 GMT
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Post by fenderplucker on Oct 11, 2009 13:03:17 GMT
Hi Jim, Charlie and others,
Jim, I think that bias (or maybe we should call it "preference") is always going to exist since people have different preferences and expectations (and possibly even hearing). Some may go to a concert expecting to hear Apache as it is heard on the original recordings and, even though this is never going to happen, they then describe the sound as somehow deficient. Others understand that a more valid reference to the old sound in a live performance context is probably the BBC Kingston live recording and judge it accordingly. Also, we have heard several comments that, despite the apperently good sound system, the sound is quite different at different locations in the various venues (including the echo levels!). It will certainly be interesting to compare the DVD with the Kingston recording and see how it stands up. Then there is the point made by Charlie that perhaps Hank is now striving for an even better sound!
I thus do not take any expression of preference as any poor reflection of this or any other site, if that is what you were suggesting. Indeed, I think that the tone of this site is set by Charlie's comments that, in my view, are always made with integrity and that I have very high regard for.
For me it is always interesting to hear what different people think and see what we can learn from it. That most people are getting great enjoyment from the concerts is a terrific outcome and I can hardly wait until Feb next year before I get a shot at it!
Best Regards,
Paul.
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Post by Roger... on Oct 11, 2009 18:46:59 GMT
Hi Charlie and friends,
As a Shadows fan in the sixties, I saw Cliff and the Shads several times and have keenly played and followed their music ever since.
On the 3rd October 2009, I was lucky enough to see them again on the NIA, in Birmingham.
All I can say is that Cliff Richard was agile, friendly and note perfect. The Shadows blew me away. Hank never missed or fluffed a note, and his guitars had the right volume balance, and the tones and echoes were spot-on. What a fabulous concert, I admit to tears of sheer joy listening to their performance.
To Cliff and the Shadows: I thank you for a wonderful evening.
Regards
Roger
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Post by bill on Oct 11, 2009 21:05:08 GMT
Hi Charlie and friends, <snip> What a fabulous concert, I admit to tears of sheer joy listening to their performance. To Cliff and the Shadows: I thank you for a wonderful evening. Regards Roger Hi Roger, So I'm not a silly old so and so after all! I too shed tears of joy! |
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colljaw
Member
The Controller
Posts: 426
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Post by colljaw on Oct 11, 2009 23:33:57 GMT
Gentlemen thank you for responding to my observations and opinions. It took me some time to compose this post, and also to respond to your replies as I have crawled into a corner since I seem to be the only one unhappy with Hank's echo at the Glasgow show.
Paul, I only mentioned members being biased to EFTP since we are here on Charlie's forum. Some members commented on echoes in the 02 thread and the unit Hank used was the TVS3. I did not mean to cause any offence and thank you for your response.
Thanks for the photos Alan and info on the Scotsman Strat.
Let's just say that Hank is not bothered about capturing the old sound!
Regards, Jim
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Post by bill on Oct 12, 2009 8:09:10 GMT
Hi all,
I'm happy to read everyone's comments here (I only frequent here and one other board which is about Blues/slide guitar) simply because of the good atmosphere in these two places.
It's difficult to put down in a few words here comments without them becoming larger than they really are and without being able to modify what we write instantly in response to clues from each listener/reader.
Anyway, I was happy to read Alan's post which is pretty much my own position (and thanks for the pics of the Scotsman strat), Roger's too mirrors my own feelings but I am more than happy to read the technical appraisals so there is no need to stand in the corner Jim.
I'm somewhat in awe of those of you who can tell what guitars they are using for which numbers as all I can see is a lot of guitar swapping! Then this wonderful sound comes out.
Do you know, I think you might be right Charlie, I remember Hank joking during either the farewell UK or European tour that the reason they keep swapping guitars is 'because we can' and I think that applies to a lot of the variation!
With all the posts now available, those yet to see The Shadows on this tour will know themselves if they want to go or not (I guess if technical problems *really* bother you, you might decide not to but if your a fan like me who apparently can't tell if there's a problem then go).
As I was writing this a friend came by to say he really enjoyed the Friday night Glasgow concert. He is a Cliff fan and said it was much better than the other Cliff shows he's been to without The Shadows.
Barry, I could see that Cliff was using in-ear monitoring so I guess they all were.
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Post by Fender Bender on Oct 12, 2009 13:30:16 GMT
;D Hi Alan,Paul,Hoadlies & Charlie I know Charlie wanted to have a new thread started but I'm going to continue,sorry for that Charlie you can hit me later !  I do appreciate each comment that was made so far and although I'm yet to see the live show for myself I would like to add my humble opinion. I want to start with the newly released CD.I truly like what I'm hearing and thought that they tried their best to keep the sound as authentic as possible.I also like the new twist to some of the songs and it sounds fresh to me as it was written yesterday.Cliff's voice were good and Hank's guitar sounded a million dollars to me.Whether it was recorded with Kinsman's or the CS '54, the sound is good as is the rest of the band.I know that most tracks were recorded with Kinsman's and some with his Paris strat.The main fact is that is Hank playing and the sound is unmistakably.Does he sound exactly like he did on the old records, I don't think so but the sound on the CD is not very far away considering it is 2009 and not to mention how studio gear has changed over the years comparing what was used in those years which I must agree with Charlie was part of Hank's trademark sound.This was mentioned in another thread. Being a musician myself I know that capturing a specific sound produced in the studio can be a difficult task and very few bands or artist can claim that they can produce the same sound life as captured on their albums,if any.I'm sure that the gear that is used by The Shads,in particular Hank is the gear of their choice and they are happy with that. Well done to the people that are and still working with Hank for the sound and to the man himself,thank you for a job well done and I can't wait to see them next year.Also a word of thanks to Alan for the pics posted.Hope that those members that must still see them have a wonderful time. Regards Louis |
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Post by solidlg on Oct 13, 2009 14:43:35 GMT
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the report on the show, and it seems as though you experienced the same as I did at the 02, and since I have been back in Canada I have listened constantly to the Reunited Album, and boy does it grow on you despite the obvious differences, and I concur with Charlie that Hanks playing and tone is so much better.
I agree the Burns sounded awful, I was going to pick one up for some Cliff numbers we do, instead I got a Fender 12 string electric, and strange as it may seem I can reproduce the ring of the 60's Burns on don't talk to him, yes its using a Magicstomp and the Cube 60 guys, it almost seems as though the pickups in the Burns are weak as Hank certainly is not that light in his picking eh?.
We are quite a lucky bunch eh?, the same music for 50 years and it gets better and better.
All the best
Steve
Toronto
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Post by Scotocaster on Oct 13, 2009 17:06:23 GMT
Hi Paul, as all i see and hear of the 02 tour is via youtube postings, the sound i heard is nothing to do with bias, i am not trying to be unkind to the TVs system, but those tunes i heard could also have been due to the venue acoustics, i'm not saying it was incorrect echoes, just the overall echo sound was too low. Maybe as stated Hank or his soundman was making some adjustments as the tunes sounded just fine only the echo sound. Hearing folks comments who have been to some different 02 concerts since, so far seems the sound is much better, i have not had a chance to listen to any other concerts since, but will get back on the youyube and try and find some more recent concerts. In the meantime, have a great day. Scott
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Post by eltrasero on Oct 13, 2009 18:59:11 GMT
So far this year I have been lucky enough to see Eric Clapton, Bob Dylan, Jack Bruce & Robin Trower, Gary Moore and AC/DC playing live at various venues. I saw Cliff and the Shadows at the SECC and have to say that their sound mix, balance and setup was by far the best of the lot. Every note could be heard without any other instrument being drowned out. They were loud enough without being overpowering. There was no ringing or whistling sound in my ears when I left the SECC at 10.45pm. I never saw the Shadows in the 60s so can't comment on their sound then but I didn't find anything offensive regarding Hank's guitar sound at the weekend. I though it was much better than the 2004 DVD sound and more often than not there was that vintage Fender twang in evidence. Its the only show this year that I'd give 10 out of 10.
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Post by alanmckillop on Oct 13, 2009 20:25:54 GMT
When discussing echo levels, take into account that they were backing Cliff most of the show. In the early days there was less volume on the lead guitar (because Cliff was there) and even the echo level was lower, so I'd suspect that that was a reason why the echoes sounded quieter.
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Post by solidlg on Oct 13, 2009 20:34:50 GMT
Hi Eltrasero,
As I understand it The Shadows are one of the very few bands who complete their own sound checks, Bruce for sure is a stickler for getting it right, and if you saw any of the German promoted shows with Bruce Welch's Shadows you can truly hear the difference between them and other named bands on the same bill.
I had also heard that the 02 was not particularly good for sound, naturally every venue will have it's characteristics.
Regards
Steve
Toronto
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Post by Charlie Hall on Oct 13, 2009 22:57:14 GMT
Hi Alan,
That's right, but every song/tune has its own echo setting which includes echo level, so as far as I know it should have been no problem to set more echo for the Shadows material.
Regards,
Charlie
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Post by Gary mac on Oct 15, 2009 13:08:36 GMT
Hi all well me and the boys had a blast at the glasgow gig and the sound was spot on we were there to watch the shadows and got a nice surprise with cliff the j.m.i amps sounded really nice as did the strats , burns guitars all i can say is they would have blown alot of chart bands that are about nowadays of the stage .
As to the echo levels and so on when youre dealing with large venues its very easy to lose the echo or for it to bounce back and slap you in the face by the time it travels round the venue it can be very of putting as well and with the size of the secc which has never been known for good sound quality i think they trod a fine line some numbers were sounding as if they had hardly any echo at all ...
our bass player thought marks sound was terrible but thats not to say it sounded like that on stage !! as they had 2 sound men one for the stage and one for front of house but as i said it was one of the best gigs i have ever been to .. all the best gary
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?.. & maybe the sound is hitting hank's ear's correctly??,,,, but not so in the audience????would he be wearing an in-ear piece as many singer's do or relyimg on the fold-back's?
I do appreciate each comment that was made so far and although I'm yet to see the live show for myself I would like to add my humble opinion.