Shadows sound

[shadowmaniac100]

Dear all.

This is my first message, I'm very recent member. I have an Stratocaster Highway1 and a Magicstomp. My questions are: In order to get Hank Marvin (The Shadows) sound, what kind of amp. I need? Have I to change the pick-ups of my guitar? Of course I will buy patches for my Yamaha Magicstomp, but, anything else needed?. What do you think about? My interest is only play for myself enjoying.

Best regards,

Carlos

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Carlos,
Welcome to the site. You might not need an amp at all. If you buy one of the modelling units like a Vox Tonelab or other brand that has Vox amp and speaker simulator modelling you could connect it to your hifi. On the other hand if you don't want to be restricted to playing only through the hifi it could be a better idea to use an amp. If you are planning to record tunes, then using a valve amp is possibly not so convenient because the speaker cannot be silenced easily and valve amps do not generally have a DI output that could give as good results as using a mic on the amp, but valve amps do sound better. Going away from valves the smaller Vox Valvetronix models are quite popular. These do actually contain one valve but it is used to simulate the power stage of a valve amp. Others may suggest a different model range.
I think one or more of our members has the Highway Strat and one is thinking of changing his pickups but is still trying to decide which ones to buy. The favourite ones for Strats seem to be Fender 57/62s or Fender Custom Shop Fat 50s. The choice between these could depend on what gauge of strings you intend to use. If you don't want to use particularly heavy strings you might do best by choosing Fat 50s which will help to make thinner gauge strings sound more like heavier gauge, which is what I do. These are both vintage style pickups that most agree will give better results for older Shadows tunes and can also do well for later Shadows sounds with amp setting changes. One final word of advice for now, don't choose your pickups before getting the echo working with the right sounds. The echo voicing will influence the final tone you will get.
Regards,
Charlie

[shadowmaniac100]

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your clarifying explanaion. I think it could be better to proceed little by little (I have plenty of time, I just retired). I mean, first I'll buy echo patches, then depending on results I'll decide if it enough for y purpose or change my guitar or he pickups.
Would you please quote the echo patches for my magicstomp., Thanks and best regards

Carlos

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Carlos,
Thank you. I have sent you an email with all the details.
Regards,
Charlie

[grip]

Nov 19, 2009 5:42:16 GMT Charlie Hall said:

I think one or more of our members has the Highway Strat and one is thinking of changing his pickups but is still trying to decide which ones to buy.
Regards,
Charlie

Hi Carlos,

Welcome to the forum. I was originally only thinking of changing the bridge pickup because I currently have the Humbucking version, biut if I change that pivkup it's most likely I will change the other two to finish with a "calibrated" set. I will try a change using a condenser across the slave coil (Charlies' recommendation), and also putting a push pull or toggle switch to give me the alternative use of either HB or Single PU. When I first got the Highway 1 I was delighted with the sound, it wasn't until I modified my American Standard that I thought it could do better.

Kind regards,


grip

[shadowmaniac100]

Hi grip,

Thanks for your answer. I will go little by littl. First ill be re-programming the Magicstomp, 2nd. I will focus on guitar. By the way what brand and type of strings do you recommend to try to get The Shadows sound?

Best regards

Carlos - Barcelona

[shadowhankron]

Hi

While we are on the Subject here of The Shadow ( Hank Marvin ) Sound I am still having Trouble getting that SOUND right. The EFTP patches are Excellent ( no problem there ) it just seems the Vox VT 3o set up dont do justice to that sound. Also no matter how much I tune the Fender Strat it sounds at times dull on tone, perhaps it`s the new strings I got put on last week Elixir Nanoweb Light / .010 - .046 gauge.
Trying Sleepwalk earlier tonight and it Sounded slightly Dull.
Any Help with my set up I tried earlier advice without any luck.

Thank You

Ronnie

[grip]

Hi Carlos,

Nov 19, 2009 18:42:37 GMT shadowmaniac100 said:

Hi grip,

By the way what brand and type of strings do you recommend to try to get The Shadows sound?

Best regards

Carlos - Barcelona

I am using D'Addario .010" to .049" with wire wound "G2" Up until very recently I used .010" to .042", I liked the difference it made, but Oh!!! my finger were sore for a while from bending. If you are thinking of going to a heavier gauge string than you already have i recommend you read this thread first:

charliehall.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2846&page=1

Kind regards,


grip


Kind regards,


grip

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ronnie,
You say you have to tune your guitar but the tone is dull. I am having trouble understanding that. Only the pitch of a note (in or out of tune) would be affected by the tuners, not the sound quality.
I don't think the American Standard pickups should sound dull, there must be some other reason. Do you know anyone with a different amp you could try out so that you can perhaps eliminate the amp as being the reason for a dull sound?
How long is your guitar cable in feet or metres, and is it supposed to be a reasonable quality one? You should be using your best cable for the guitar, the rest do not really matter so much.
Regards,
Charlie

[grip]

Hi Ronnie,

Can you give us an example of your settings that are giving the dull sound?


Kind regards,


grip

[shadowhankron]

Hi Charlie.
When I say the tone I mean 3rd & 4th String sound " dead " even in tune, also it appears when I use the whammy bar after awhile 1st string goes out of tune. I use at least 10ft Guitar cable with Gold Tips top Quality cable


Hi Grip,

As mentioned before I use the Vox VT 30.
When playing with the G2.1u Zoom Pedal I set on the Amp settings........

VOX 30 or VOX 15 setting on Amp Drive setting around 7 oclock....... Vol 3 oclock .... Middle 11 oclock .....Treble 2 oclock....... Bass 11 oclock settings. using the bypass switch, then I use whatever Patch from Charlie to desired tune.

My other problem too is " The Starting Note " on Shadows tunes sometimes I might start too high up the Frets other times too low on the frets. Any ideas on how to know or decide what starting notes to use in future, Please

I know I need more practice playing after all these years but after Spending the Money on the Vox Amp and Zoom Pedal I hoped I might have half the Sound organised.

Many Thanks for all your support Charlie and Grip.

regards

Ronnie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ronnie,
If any string is going out of tune with tremolo use, it is either because the string has not been stretched in after fitting a new one, or because the string is sticking in the nut or under the string tree, if there is one. You could try putting a very small amount of light oil (less than a drop!) in those places to reduce friction. I apply oil with an extremely small screwdriver, then wipe any excess off with a cloth. You could instead make your own small quantity of graphite grease from a mixture of Vaseline and pencil lead shavings and use that instead of oil. That tip was passed on to me by a well respected guitar tech, but I stopped using it because I didn't like the black residue that built up after some time.
Your guitar cable sounds like it is a good one, and the length is the same as I prefer, so I don't think there's a problem there.
Try setting your amp's middle control to 12 o' clock. Your treble setting is far too high, especially when using the amp modelling built into the G2.1u. The gain control is probably too low, set it to 9 o' clock and see if that helps. You will need to reduce the volume to compensate if the gain is turned higher. If it distorts at that gain setting you will have to back it off until it sounds clean and readjust the volume again too. On the other hand if it stays clean, try turning the gain even higher and again reduce volume to compensate.
The starting note for each tune will vary according to the tune. You will have to let us know which tunes you are playing.
Regards,
Charlie

[shadowhankron]

Hi Charlie

Thank You again for your valued information and your help.
I shall try a little oil in the nut , would 3 in 1 oil like one uses on door hinges....help.

Hopefully tomorrow I will try the Settings on the Amp as you mentioned, I cannot try tonight as Today I had the Swine Flu injection and my arm hurts, so Tomorrow is another day.

Regarding the Starting Notes on Shadows Tunes I would like help with using the U B Hank CD`s Vol 1...... Man of Mystery ... Wonderful Land...... Dance On ... Atlantis .... Sleepwalk..
these are my Favourites, I seem to manage Apache okay.

I am sorry asking too much. I cannnot read Music or Tabs either so I am at a loss, I play by ear.
Maybe a Section on Forum with Starting Notes from the more Professional Members might be a Help to us non Pro`s.

Again Thank You Charlie for a FANTASTIC Forum you created here CONGRATULATIONS.

regards

Ronnie

[grip]

Hi Ronnie,

One of the best learning tools is watching other people play, if you search for shadows tunes on the youtube site, there are lots of players (not the shads) that like to show their skills. A number of them have the camera very close to the fretboard, so you can get the starting point. You will find that not everybody plays a tune the same way.

I don't know if there is a right and wrong way, but I play whichever I can get my fingers to, I tend to try and get groups of notes around chord shapes and their inversions, which is of great value when you have phrases with 2 and 3 note picking.

There are a few good video's in the Guitar tuition section for learning from.

Nov 20, 2009 20:53:09 GMT shadowhankron said:

I shall try a little oil in the nut , would 3 in 1 oil like one uses on door hinges....help.

regards

Ronnie

I use vaseline for this purpose, just a tiny bit on the end of a cocktail stick.


Kind regards,


grip

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ronnie,
I think 3 in 1 might be the wrong kind of oil. Sewing machine oil is more like it if you can find some, or try mixing Vaseline and pencil lead shavings.
I don't read music or bother with tabs (they weren't around when I started playing), I have always played by ear.
Man Of Mystery intro:
first finger on 12th fret treble E string, third finger on 15th fret B string, pick the B and treble E strings together, then bend the B string note up only, close to a whole tone upwards (to almost match the E string note) and pull the tremolo arm up a little too and wobble it at the same time. The four answering lower notes are just the open bass E string, slightly palm damped. Then repeat the whole lot again.
Wonderful Land intro (and outro):
3rd finger 15th fret treble E string, then 2nd finger 13th fret treble E string, then 1st finger 12th fret treble E string, then 3rd finger 15th fret B string, then 1st finger 13th fret B string, then back up to 3rd finger 15th fret B string, then wobble the tremolo arm a little at medium speed. Repeat the whole lot again. (and again and again at the ending as many times needed until tune ends).
Dance On:
Press tremolo arm downwards, pick open bass E and release tremolo arm immediately (this should give notes Eb raising up to E with the one combined action), then 1st or 2nd finger D string 2nd fret, then open D string. Then the low E string open and damped, then 2nd or 3rd finger D string 2nd fret damped, then back to low E open damped, then back to 2nd or 3rd finger D string 2nd fret damped, then back to low E open damped, then back to 2nd or 3rd finger D string 2nd fret damped and played three times (edited to correct from the previous twice), then back to low E open damped, then back to 2nd or 3rd finger D string 2nd fret damped, then open A damped and played 5 times. Repeat the whole lot. The timing is essential, it won't sound right if you just play with equal time spacings.
Atlantis:
1st finger 10th fret B string and damped, 2nd finger 11th fret B string and damped, 3rd finger 13th fret B string and damped and played 5 times (timing is important here, like Dah da da Dah Dah), 4th finger 15th fret treble E string and damped, 1st finger 12th fret treble E string and damped, 13th fret 2nd finger B string and damped, 1st finger 11th fret B string and damped and played 5 times (timing is important here, like Dah da da Dah Dah),
3rd finger 13th fret treble E string and damped, first finger 10th fret G string and damped, 3rd finger 12th fret G string and damped and played twice, 2nd finger 11th fret B string and damped, 1st finger 10th fret B string and damped, 3rd finger 12th fret G string and damped. Play the whole lot again, except with different timing on the first two notes.
Sleepwalk:
1st finger 8th fret B string, 3rd finger 10th fret B string, 1st finger 8th fret treble E string then immediately slide up to 15th fret where the new note should still be heard without having to pick it again and slight wobble on tremolo, 1st finger 12th fret G string and dip tremolo down and up again quickly, 3rd finger 15th fret treble E string, 1st finger 12th fret G string.
Someone else please check my work!!
Regards,
Charlie

[Andy Cook]

Hi Ronnie

Take a look here it will give you an idea how to read guitar tab

www.mahalo.com/how-to-read-guitar-tabs

Tab can be a great help regarding which note to play, but as already said, there is more than one place on a guitar to find the note you require.

Try and get along to a local Shadows club and watch other members play, and it's a great way of learning and making new friends with similer interests.

Best regards
Andy

[shadowhankron]

Hello Charlie.

What can I say to you but THANK YOU , you are so very kind taking your energy to help me with the starting notes with my requested Tunes. I cannot Thank You enough,
This has to be the Best Forum Ever for HELP , I hope to try them out later today with also the settings for my Amp you helped me with.
You gave me plenty of Tunes to keep me busy.
Thank You very much Charlie.

Grip...

Thank You too for your great help with my problems

Best Wishes to you Both

Ronnie

[shadowhankron]

Thank You Andy for your help I will check out the Site mentioned.

Here in Dublin there are no Shadows Clubs to visit, I rely on This Site for my information on music interests. And what a Fantastic Site ( Forum ) I found here Thanks to Charlie Hall.

regards

Ronnie

[grip]

Hi Ronnie,

Just an afterthought, there is a program called "Guitar Pro 5" A lot of the tabs that appear in this will give music notation it plays the tune in midi format, and give a real time illustration of which frets the note is played on, searches will find you a few shadows numbers that you can use on this, and its very useful for songs you want to turn into instrumentals. It also will give separate tabs/notations for bass rhythm and harmony lines. You can download a trial version to see if it any use, and its under £50 if it is useful to you

www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php


Kind regards,


grip

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ronnie,
I have made a correction to Dance On, if you have already printed the old version you'll need to print it again.
Regards,
Charlie

[shadowhankron]

Thanks Grip, I will check that site out.

Hi, Charlie You say a correction is made to Dance on, as I have not printed out sheet yet, what do I need to change.

Again Many Thanks

Ronnie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ronnie,
You will see where I made the correction in my post, it is noted in brackets after the correction.
In actual fact, both may be correct, depending on which actual phrase is being played.
Regards,
Charlie

[shadowhankron]

Hi Charlie

Where in your post do I find Dance On correction I assume " MY Post " is the Forum here.

regards
Ronnie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ronnie,
The original post #14 in this thread which gave all the playing details to begin with, I edited it to make the correction, you will see in brackets about what I changed.
Regards,
Charlie

[shadowhankron]

Thanks Charlie as you know I`m new here finding my way around the Forum.

Regards

Ronnie

[franz]

I know that Hank isn't playing everything the same way nowadays but he can be seen on the Final Tour DVD opening Dance On by starting openE, tremelo depressed, and then E and D on the 5th string before the damping starts if this is any help. To me it seems to replicate the record.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Franz,
I am sure that was how it was originally played.
Regards,
Charlie

[grip]

Hi Charlie / Ronnie,

Sorry Charlie, I didn't see your request at the bottom of you original post for someone to check your intro's for Ronnie, below is an edited version to the way I play it, and (IMO) doesn't detract in any way from your (and probably Hanks) method, but does give more easier damping on the first couple of notes and easier fingering as it covers only 4 frets for the whole intro:

3rd Finger 14th Fret G string and damped, 4th finger 15th fret G string and damped 13th fret B string and damped and played 5 times (timing is important here, like Dah da da Dah Dah), 4th finger 15th fret treble E string and damped, 1st finger 12th fret treble E string and damped, 13th fret 2nd finger B string and damped, 4rd finger 15th fret G string and damped and played 5 times (timing is important here, like Dah da da Dah Dah),2nd finger 13th fret treble E string and damped, 4th finger 15th fret D String, 1st finger 12th fret G string, 4th finger 15th fret G string, 3rd finger 14th fretG string, 1st finger 12th fret G string.

Play the whole lot again, except with different timing on the first two notes.

Kind regards,


grip

[John Haldane]

This is about the dull string sound, once when cleaning my guitar some fluff off the cloth was wrapped around the top E string that I never spotted and it did dull the string.
Take care
John H

[shadowhankron]

Thanks to Grip and John H for your input,

as I said before " What wonderful People ( Friends ) Charlie Hall has created on this Fantastic Guitar Site Thank You all for helping out at times I feel stupid at some of the Questions I ask, but what is normal for you Guys to play , I am still learning. as once said " You Learn Something New Every Day of Our Lives "

Regards to All.

Ronnie