Swissecho_1&4_Version_Timing

[26rednef]

Hi Charlie.

Where can i find the timing for this old equipment ?

Do you know the timing on the first version of Swissecho it had 1 record head and 4 replay heads like the Ecomatic 2. The one coming with the EFTP programs is a model with 2 record heads and 3 replay heads like the Dynacord Echocord or Klemt Echolette and it is different to the 1 & 4 version.

Any suggestions?

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[26rednef]

Hi again.

I was a Little to fast here, the Klemt and Dynacord has 3 record and 2 replay heads so it is not quite the same as the Swissecho in the EFTP programs.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[Charlie Hall]

Hi 26rednef,
The Swissecho that I took my programs from had 3 record heads and 2 playback heads. I had one like it several years ago. I have never seen a model with 4 playback heads but have heard about it.
Regards,
Charlie

[26rednef]

Hi and Thanks.

Yes the model is called 460 and I think the first one they made, a simple machine.

I have it here before me on the table. It was mine long time ago and the owner called me up and asked me if I could fix it for him it does not work. The heads has been fiddled with and points in all directions, so the first to do is to find the original timing for it, I can of course set it to where it works best, maybe that was what the did on the factory at that time. I looked in your settings in the EFTP program but that timing there does not seem to be possible to set up for this one. Do you know where I could find the timing ?

Tape transport works if I hold the rubber wheel with my thumb to the capstan. The rubber wheel has to be replaced, the relay that holds it must be adjusted. The preamp, the bias oscillator, the replay amp works, it's not bad for to be from 1962. I have lined up the record head and one replay head as good as I can on free hand and get echoes from it, not bad at all.

Schematic is attached.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

Attachments:

[Charlie Hall]

Hi 26rednef,
Unless the heads have been moved to new locations it should be a fairly simple matter to align them correctly to their original settings. Does this model have a cassette type long tape like the other model has? They are prone to sticking.
Regards,
Charlie

[26rednef]

Hi again.

No there is no cassette on this one, it has been removed by some one, I know that it had one where the tape was going in on the outside and taken out from the middle of it and it get stuck now and then. It has been replaced by a rubber wheel with a spring and now it runs with short Klemt/Dynacord tapes. I don't know if the heads has been moved, there are more wholes then heads so it might be so. All heads was pointing in all directions, shrews missing. I will fix that and try to line up the heads to start with.
Yes it is a relay mess. But it is alive, it works with one head and my thumb holding the rubber wheel in place, that's a good start, so I will give it a try. I will see if I can figure out the timing, If I look at pictures of Meazzi 9000 the head setup seams to be very alike.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[sheendigs]

Hi There
Was that the swiss echo deluxe?
www.vintagehofner.co.uk/selmer/echos/swissecho1.html
Lots of heads there..
Then we have the swiss echo Model 566
www.vintagehofner.co.uk/gallery/gallery3/gallery6/swis.html
One can see at the bottom a Model 463 which uses a cassette and four replay heads
Sheendigs

[26rednef]

Hi, thanks for the pictures.

It looks like the 463 model, it has 1 record head and 4 replay heads and a erase head, but the cassette is removed and replaced by a rubber wheel with a spring and it seems to be made by a amateur. The schematics I found is called 460/11 and it corresponds to the circuitry as far as I have checked. It is a simple machine so it is easy to go through, but it will take a couple of days to fix it.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[26rednef]

H Charlie.

I have lined up the heads now and fixed them in position, this is how the timing fall out for me.

Head # mSec Relative levels
1 ~100 0 db
2 ~180 0 db
3 ~300 0 db
4 ~425 0 db

What do you think of this, how wrong it can be, how far from original timing ?

I make use of a rubber band to hold the pressure wheel to the capstan, it is so worn out the relay can't be adjusted to hold it in place. But with that and a new tape it works. The sound is a bit dull, heads are worn out. There are some guys over here that can fix new heads and rubber wheel, but that will take some time. I will also replace all old electrolytic caps, and tubes.
It has a simple Echorec type of feedback setup ( what you take out, will also be what you feed back ) so it is hard to get those real nice ripples out from it. The best combination for that seams to be heads 3+4 or 2+3+4.

I have set up the timing above in my G Force to simulate it and with a Meazzi type of feedback, it is really close to Echomatic 2.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[Charlie Hall]

Hi 26rednef,
It seems like the average spacing would be around 100 milliseconds. The original spacings were probably fairly equal, they certainly are close to equal on the other model with 3 record heads and 2 play heads.
The 2nd head seems a little short and the 4th head seems a little long, but it is better to have unequal spacings so that there is less chance of a feedback whistle. This is less important when feedback comes off only one head. If you want the Echomatic 2 delays, you should try figures around 100, 200, 280, 360. Then modify the feedback (and maybe the record amp section) circuit to that of an Echomatic 2 (including the control of the first 3 heads level) and it should be fairly close.
Regards,
Charlie

[26rednef]

Hi and thanks a lot.

Manage to adjust timing to ~110, ~195, ~285, ~375, close enough

I will ask the owner of the change of feedback. If so, I need to add a pot to set relative level of the 3 first heads, split feedback circuity and add a half tube to take care of the new feedback from head 4. Unfortunately there is no spare, all 8 triodes are used, pity
It is doable no problem, is it worth to do

After a phone call, owner is pleased if it works and that is partly fixed ;D
So I will change rubber wheel, caps, tubes and eventually the heads
depended on the cost.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[alandjackson]

Hello 26rednef,

Some interesting pictures and information about Swissechoes. I bought a unit in the 70's in working order and had it 'done up' to use with my keyboards. The unit has 4 inputs with level controls, which had broken off, and the tape in the cassette was getting weary. The cassette, made of metal, got hot from the heat of the valves and the tape often jammed but it ran o.k. if I took the blue cover off on stage. I tried to run some new tape on to the cassette but this was a disaster as I did not use dry-lubricated tape.

The original cassette was lost. Sony made two cassettes, one lasting 4 minutes and the other 6, which were made of plastic and I borrowed one which worked perfectly. These were for use in Sony's dictaphone machines but were all thrown away when they went digital.

I later got hold of a Philips dictaphone cassette which I modified and this works well, too.
Charlie sampled my Swiss for his Q2 patches. Apparently, Dick Denney, a fine steel guitar player, used a Swissecho because he liked the deep sound of the echoes.

Alan Jackson.

[26rednef]

Hi Alan.

I will try to fix some pictures on this one. It has been modified the
cassette is removed and I don't know if the heads are correct placed
all was loose.
It works now but tape transport is not OK and I am waiting for a new rubber wheel.

To me it sounds a bit dull, but after what you wrote it may be its original
sound then.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[rogera]

During the 60s I owned a Swissecho (the version with 3 record heads and 2 playback)

I wanted to point out that the 2nd playback head timing is variable by means of moving the head along a slot in the chassis.

[26rednef]

OK thanks.

I don't know if the heads on this one was meant to be mowed, they can be angled or rotated and that affects the timing but not really moved
There are a couple not used holes but I don't know if they are made by a owner or original.

Now the timing is: ~107 (100), ~193 (200), ~295 (300), ~412 (400)

Kind Regards,
26rednef