Atlantis - Fender or Burns?

[martyn]

I've been listening to UBHank's sample tracks that he provides alongside his backings and trying to decide which guitar and pickup or combination of pickups were used on this. It sounds quite hard and throaty, which is typically Burns but maybe it's a strat recorded with a lot of compression and treble boost? Just guessing.

Normally I can recognise the difference between the two guitars, having a strat plus a Marvin Burns, and I think the latter gets closest with bridge/neck combined or just the bridge but I'm still not getting it spot on and can't put my finger on what's missing.
Here's a condensed sample of UBHank's demo recording - now I'm assuming it's him and not the original Shads recording (if the latter, I'll feel suitably embarassed and offer my apologies, but I don't have the original Shads recording to refer to) - either way can anyone confirm what was used on the original Shads version?

www.4shared.com/file/237003357/42dbc1aa/atlantis_sample_sounds.html

Thanks for any help.
Martyn

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Martyn,
First of all, that sounds exactly like the original Shadows version to me, including the panned position of the instruments. If it isn't the original then it is the closest I have ever heard to the original.
Hank has always said he used a Strat on this. I have also heard that Burns guitars were being tested around this time. One story goes that Jim Burns bought a secondhand Strat body as part of the prototype process. It could be that this prototype with a Strat body was used, and perhaps was fitted with Burns pickups as part of the testing. This would explain a lot of things if this is true.
Either way, there is a lot of compression on the recording, this was also confirmed to me by Hank. It also sounds like a top boost AC30 to me, with the treble (and perhaps the bass too) turned up higher than would have normally been. I have never figured out which pickups were used on the original but Hank uses the neck pickup for the damped sections and the bridge pickup for the rest when playing it live. I don't think any of the original sounds like a bridge pickup, it all sounds more like a neck pickup to me.
Regards,
Charlie

[martyn]

Hi Charlie,
If the story's true re the prototype guitar this might explain the slight Burns nasal tone to the neck pickup, although my Burns' neck pickup is far more mellow and rather lacks bite. I'm not complaining because this is really useful for some tunes where the strat's neck pickups is too much the other way, however it's not ideal for this particular tune.
It's interesting how Hank seems to be using the bridge pickup on a whole bunch of tunes in recent times when the originals were produced using others - do we know why or does he simply prefer the bridge pickup sound and perhaps feels it more suitable for those tunes? Sort of a modern updating process.
Regards,
Martyn

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Martyn,
I don't think Hank places as much importance with tonal changes between different pickup selections in the same way that most of us do. That's not to say he hasn't a good ear for what he wants to achieve.
I think it has more to do with getting a balanced tone from the guitar and amp combination of what he uses at a particular time, and bearing in mind that the amp is set and left untouched for a whole performance. If he wants a brighter sound, he will most likely use the bridge pickup to achieve it rather than have to adjust amp settings. It may seem strange but I believe it is true.
Regards,
Charlie

[ianrigby]

I have noticed that despite many tabs, and music sheets saying change pickup at this point. Hank rarely changes pickup in a tune. See Atlantis on Reunion DVD, he uses the Bridge through out. Saw some old footage of The Breeze and I, again Bridge through out.
Found this interesting considering the emphisis placed on pickup selection.

Ian

[boritz]

Maybe Hank has been reading the tabs ;D

It has been mentioned elsewhere, but, during the recent 50th tour he switched between the Strat middle (palm-mute sections) and the bridge for Atlantis (certainly at the first Melbourne night that I attended).

I usually try the 'suggested' p/u selections and then may possibly choose differently to suit the way I like for a number.

Dave.

[piotrek]

Hello Ian,

From what I can observe, Hank does switch from the bridge pickup to the middle for the damped bit on Atlantis on The Final Reunion DVD two times out of three. The middle damped section is played on the bridge pickup, though. Maybe he forgot to switch the pickups?

regards,
Piotrek

[franz]

Hi, Martyn.
I spoke to Licorice Locking at Derby Shadows and he told me that Atlantis was played on the Burns and Theme for Young Lovers on the Strat! I thought he had got it the wrong way round but he told someone else from the same club that Atlantis was played on a white guitar and I have never seen Hank use a white Strat. Matbe, as suggested, it was a hybrid.
Back to the drawing board and having replaced the brain for another one, I listened to the damped part of the 3rd verse and that certainly has a flatter slightly more ringing tone than you would get from the strat on the bridge pickup. And having both a Strat and a Burns, it replicates better on the Burns. The other point is that the first two verses have a clipped, rounded tone which is more Burns like if you listen to the Dance with the Shadows tracks.
No doubt Charlie will say that it has something to do with the compression on the lead but I can't reproduce it on the Strat.
Regards, Franz.

[franz]

Hi again guys,
I forgot to say with regard to another part of the thread that I agree that hank seemed to get fed up with changing pickups throughout a tune but he used to do it all the time on the early stuff-FBI, Back Home and Kon Tiki for example. Franz

[Charlie Hall]

I believe Abbey Road used compressors with a soft knee. This essentially means that the compression ratio changes according to the signal strength with the ratio increasing with more signal. This would probably give a different kind of compression effect than the typical pedal variety of compressor as far as I am aware of how these work.
Regards,
Charlie

[peter]

Hi Charlie,

I've got myself a Zoom g2.1u
Now I would like to buy your EFTP.
Would you be so kind to let me know how I have to order?
I cannot find anything about that.
I'm living in Roosendaal ( The Netherlands )
Regards,
Peter

[petercreasey]

Mar 9, 2010 6:29:55 GMT ianrigby said:

I have noticed that despite many tabs, and music sheets saying change pickup at this point. Hank rarely changes pickup in a tune. See Atlantis on Reunion DVD, he uses the Bridge through out. Saw some old footage of The Breeze and I, again Bridge through out.
Found this interesting considering the emphisis placed on pickup selection.

Ian

Don't forget that Hank does not use standard wiring on his Strats
Regards
Peter

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Peter,
Thanks for your enquiry. Please email me charliehallATntlworld.com (replacing AT with @), asking about the G2.1u programs, and then I can send you the information and conditions.
Regards,
Charlie

[alanmckillop]

Re Post 7.

Hank and The Shads did play white Fender strats just before switching to their Burns guitars. The first were white bodies/white pickguard/rosewood necks and this was followed by changing the pickguards to tortoise shell. It was always thought that this change was to lessen the impact of the new Burns, which had the same colour detail.

[5tratocaster]

I asked Bruce a while back whether Atlantis was recorded on a Burns or a strat and he replied - without a second's hesitation - "a strat". Hank has always maintained that it was a strat.
Some observers believe that it is possible that a very early prototype Burns was used, based mainly on Licorice's recollection that it was a Burns, but Atlantis was recorded in December 1962, some 18 months before they 'officially' started using Burns guitars, so it would have been a very, very, early prototype. Someone from Burns who was there at the time told me that they have a photo of Hank with one of the early prototypes dated November 1963. That clinches it for me - definitely a strat on Atlantis. However, I have to concede that it does sound very much like the early Burns sound, probably because they had learned to use a particular type of compression around that time that was employed on a number of records which made the guitars sound similar.
Geoff

[martyn]

Mar 15, 2010 16:45:35 GMT Charlie Hall said:

I believe Abbey Road used compressors with a soft knee. This essentially means that the compression ratio changes according to the signal strength with the ratio increasing with more signal. This would probably give a different kind of compression effect than the typical pedal variety of compressor as far as I am aware of how these work.
Regards,
Charlie

I've downloaded VST plug-in compressors that have this 'knee' control with graduations from 'Hard' to 'Soft' and I wondered what it did - when I fiddled with it I couldn't discern much happening. Also there's a 'Ratio' knob varying from 1:1, 2:1 and finally oo:1 - again not sure what it's for. Each of these are positioned under the Compressor section, with Attack & Release coming under the Envelope heading.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Martyn,
All compressors have a threshold setting, although sometimes marked as drive or sustain. Any signals below the threshold level will not be compressed. Signals above the threshold will be compressed.
The ratio is the ratio of compression above the threshold level. 1:1 means no compression. 2:1 means that signals with a 2dB range will be compressed to a 1dB range, similarly signals with a 12dB range for example will be compressed to a range of 6dB. The higher the ratio, the more compression that will occur. Anything above 40:1 is considered to be a limiter.
A soft knee means a gradual transition from 1:1 up to the maximum ratio set.
One of the compressor plugins that I use a lot has a distinctly different response between the hard and soft knee settings. a soft knee setting would most likely benefit from having a higher ratio set for it since that ratio will only be used with the higher signal peaks.
Regards,
Charlie

[Deleted]

Well Now--If thats not the Original,I'm Amazed.(Even The "String Squeaks" seem to be right.) I'll also be amazed if it's not played on a Burns!

Cheers

Tommo

[sheendigs]

Hi Guys
Have a look at this thread:
charliehall.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3997&page=1#31233
AT the bottom completely one can click on the link and watch some vintage clips with Burns! ;D
Have fun
Sheendigs

[jastreet]

Mar 30, 2010 11:24:29 GMT @tommolittlelever said:

Well Now--If thats not the Original,I'm Amazed.(Even The "String Squeaks" seem to be right.) I'll also be amazed if it's not played on a Burns!

Cheers

Tommo

I agree. To my ears, it sounds exactly like the original recording - too much alike to be anything other than The Shadows. It seems that most of the evidence supports the use of a Stratocaster on this recording.

As Charlie noted, there is a lot of compression on this recording. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the one used here was a Fairchild 660. If so, there are plug-ins available that you could perhaps use to get close to the sound, although we are talking modern software and not vintage hardware.

Cheers,

James

[TonyL]

Hi

On the front cover of the original Atlantis sheet music Hank and Bruce have both got Strats.

[Graylion]

Hi Tony - are they white Strats on the sheet music? Sheet music and publicity photos are notorious for not representing what was actually used on any particular recording - they are just intended to look pretty! ;D Cheers, Lionel

[TonyL]

Hi Lionel

No it looks as though they are red (black and white photo) definately a lot darker than the pick guard.