question about sleep walk

[richie]

hi on sleep walk what pick up setting does hank use is it middle or neck??? ive all ways use middle but i get a feeling im wrong?

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Richie,
I always thought it sounded best with the neck but some players prefer the middle. Hank has used the bridge pickup for that tune and most if not all others for a long time.
Regards,
Charlie

[richie]

hi charlie . but when hank original recorded it with the shadows back in 1961 was it bridge back then or middle??

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Richie,
No, not back then, but he has used the bridge pickup for almost everything for a long time.
Regards,
Charlie

[shawbridge]

Hi Ritchi,
I agree with charlie on this, i have watched Hank in close proximity and i have to say i can't remember an ocasion were he has used any other pickup than the bridge one but in the studio is another matter i have heard it said that he uses the bridge pickup for live performances as it carries the sound better.
On the original recording it sounds contradictive as it sounds in parts like the neck pickup and also the bridge pickup, i personally use the middle pickup and adjust the eq acordingly.

cheers

[richie]

ok thanks guys

[Roger...]

Hi Richie,

I have played Sleepwalk hundreds of time as have many other folks on this forum, and always played it on the neck pickup. However, I have never thought that it was quite right right (being a bit 'too smooth'). Recently I have changed to playing it on the middle pickup with the tone control nearest the edge of the guitar set to about 7½. This I find gives it just enough bite whilst retaining it's smoothness. Of course it also relies on your amplifier settings as well. Mine are set to: bass 30%, middle 80%, treble 70%. (MagicStomp used)

Example of my rendition below on the middle pickup:

www.4shared.com/audio/5gXfpAWF/Sleepwalk_4_.html

I hope this helps.

Kind regards
Roger

[Tone]

Hi Roger

That's a very nice sound and nice playing but, to my ears, it's not quite the sound on the original record, if that's what you were trying to recreate.

Quite recently I spent an awful lot of time trying to nail it myself using a couple of Strats fitted with the "right" pickups, the EF86 channel of a Vox Heritage and an ESE Echomatic. I tried both the neck and middle pickups and various amp settings but I just couldn't get that sort of nasal creamy edge of the original.

I was driving myself bananas so in the end I gave up. I reckon something was added or tweaked in the studio back in 1961.

I now usually play it on the neck pickup and settle for a nice sound rather than one which is 100% authentic.

What are we like!

Cheers.

Tony

[Roger...]

Hi Tony,

I very much agree with you. I have tried everything with the kit that I have, and the link above is the best I can do. I have not tried any after recording tweaking though. I know that nasally sound you mean. Maybe it was a product of the early amplifiers/cabinets/speakers that gave that sort of sound. I notice also, that the early Shadows tracks of 1960/61 etc., all had the same bitey throaty punch (Frightened City, FBI, etc) that nowadays seems to be so difficult to replicate.

We do our best don't we, and hope we get somewhere near.....
Thanks for the comments.

Kind regards
Roger

[shawbridge]

Hi Guy's,
I myself have come to the conclusion that it is probably impossible to get the exact sound i have neither an AC15, or AC30/4,Meazzi, pre CBS strat not to mention the studio mix itself.

But i guess with patience we can get near to.
That was a nice rendition of sleepwalk.

cheers

Peter

[Roger...]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your time, your comments, and for listening. I think with such a massive mix of guitars, pickups, strings, amplifiers, and effects units, and even playing techniques, it is impossible to replicate the exact sound as we heard it from many days gone by. Added to that is our own hearing characteristics, which as we know, change as we get older as well as differing from person to person.

I do not know whether 'Sleepwalk' was played on the neck or middle pickup originally. All we can go with is what our own perception of what we hear is correct. Also I think sounds from equipment from yester-year, was very different to what we have today. Perhaps a neck pickup on one guitar with a certain amplifier/effects combination sounds the same as a middle pickup on another guitar with a different amplifier/effects combination, who knows? All we can do is make our music as pleasing to the ear as we can.

Kind regards
Roger

[betowelch]

Hi Guys:

I'm following this thread with interest as I'm agree that something more than usual could be happened at the Sleepwalk original Shadows recording in 1961. I also had read here some Charlie's comments about it and Charlie has a theory for that mysterious Sleepwalk tone....If I remember well according him, the Meazzi echo has altering it's velocity....

I think that exactly tone for Sleepwalk isn't possible at nowadays.... (imho)
PS- I use the neck position..... with U10 MS patch...

Cheers from Brazil!
Roberto

[macnik]

Hi Richie

Always an interesting question about which pickup was used on those difficult to nail sounds. I've listened to Sleepwalk and posed the same question to myself many times as it's the one tone that if nailed would satisfy me. I keep coming back to the middle pickup every time as pickup no:1 is too woody and pickup no:3 is obviously too trebly to my ear.

cheers
Ian

[Gary Allen]

Hi All...My theory is that Hank used the middle p/up and the model 2 meazzi. I would say the head levels were slightly different to say perhaps Peace Pipe which was also model 2...Im hoping Charlie will add to this.....We re talking about the studio version here so I would presume there was post eq added to the lead track just to polish it up...maybe a little bass ..who knows...There are other factors to consider..He would have hit the notes in that little gap between the neck p/up and the fingerboard as this particular picking technique sounds quite different to any other...Also if you notice..the tremelo bar is used to mask the echo repeats at the end of nearly every note...I base this theory from my own efforts. I would post a soundfile but the only take I saved is dreadful....There are other versions out there so I think the sound is probably 95% achievable...and dont forget the heavy strings...12s or 13s........my 2p worth...........

[erikMAMS]

Middle pickup.

Erik

[spikestevens]

Perhaps another reason things just don't 'sound right' to our ears is that modern hi-fi's are a lot more sophisticated than the old ones?
Plus the original recordings might alter slightly when they're being changed from analogue to digital?

[Roger...]

I think that in the late 50's early 60's amplifiers, loud speakers, effects units, were no where near the quality standard or specification that we have today. We just have to look back as to what microphones the industry was using at that time to realise that. For many years I have not even heard Hank himself replicate same sound, either recorded or on stage (whether that was by choice, who knows).

Perhaps it's not possible to replicate the old sounds exactly without some very sophisticated equipment. Still, it does not stop us having fun trying does it......

That's my ramble.

Kind regards
Roger

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Gary,
I believe Hank had used at least 2 different Echomatic 2 echoes that had slightly different head spacings and head levels. Even so, it was possible to alter the level of the first 3 heads simultaneously with a control.
Regards,
Charlie

[john44]

Hi Roger
Personally mate I think you have a great arrangement of sleepwalk different to Hanks arrangement very well played with light and shade and if I got your sound I would be a happy chappie.
I think we are like a dog chasing a car we spend a lot of time and money chasing Hanks car and never catch it. Keep doing what you do and enjoy it because I enjoyed listening and look forward to hearing more from you
Cheers John44

[Roger...]

Hi John44,

You are very kind, and thanks for listening. As you said, we keep chasing, but thats part of the fascination.

Kind regards
Roger

[Deleted]

I Think The Answer lies in the Old '60s Pickups. Watch Phil Kelly on Youtube--"Frightened City"--for an example of "That Sound"--(Using modern /vintage spec/ Pickups--You,ll be surprised !!

Cheers
Ian

[Roger...]

I think it's a combination of many things. Pickups, string size, amplifier, speakers, echo/effects unit, compressors, graphic equalizers, and even the types of microphones that pick up the sound. Coupled to that, we have different tunes with different sounds, and then the combination changes once again.

Added to all that of course is the ability, technique, and style of the player. Lots of good players get it very nearly right (if you are comparing it to the original), but not exactly 100% to the purist.
That is why it is fascinating for so many of us to try and get there (sad aren't we).

Of course if you want to get close to the Shadows sound but wish to use your own variations, that is absolutely fine also. As long as you fully enjoy what you do that is the main thing.

Kind regards
Roger