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Post by Charlie Hall on Oct 3, 2010 2:12:08 GMT
Hi 26rednef, You obviously haven't seen previous discussions on other sites about the Gretsch theory. I don't want them repeated here. Discussing the studio equipment is fine and I didn't see anyone say it was uninteresting, in fact I find Malcolm's settings interesting (although I would have found the original equipment and settings used even more interesting), and it won't have been beaten to death elsewhere. Regards, Charlie
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Post by 26rednef on Oct 3, 2010 8:42:00 GMT
Hi Charlie.
No I haven't seen that, the instrument is important it gives some colors to the sound, but when using the bridge PU many instruments is very equal sounding. Why I refer to this guy is because he is the only one that has made something that resemble research on the subject, most others is just thinking and guessing on different things and that is not convincing to me. Then Shadows guitar sound was already on Cliff's recordings before Hank. On "Move It" Hank was not playing, but the sound was there.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by saffyre on Oct 3, 2010 9:41:58 GMT
Yeah I think a high action gives a better sound and you can really pound at the strings. For Instance, Brad Paisley, uses a very high action and still can play very fast with a killer tone. I am a big fan of Hanks 80's sound like the 25th Anniversary Album and Life In the Jungle (that tone was to die for). I saw the Shadows at the Twin Towns Service Club Australia in 1986, he used the Vox Ac30 and the Roland chorus echo and he had a beautiful tone. I saw them again in Rockhampton Australia. He used the Mesa Boogie amp with mids up full, bass backed off to about 7 and treble backed off to about 7 with the Roland chorus echo. It sounded a bit nasily but bitey. I think the early sounds were a little harsh and trebley, but thats just me. I like a higher action with 10 to 46 strings. My HB strat is fitted with Kinman pickups, apart from the pickups having no noise, I think the original ones had a better tone and I think the Dimarzio have a fuller sound than Kinman. One of the secrets with getting the hank tone is to use the heaviest pick you can find and pick the notes around near where the neck pickup is located to get a bit more of a fuller tone.The heel of my neck gets a lot of wear from playing in this area. Another secret with the Strat is to have the tremelo floating and set your tremelo springs to sing with reverberation when you pluck them. Thats my setup and it works for me. I think I will ditch the Kinman Pickups tho. Saffyre.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2010 9:56:36 GMT
Saffyre That's very interesting. Glad to know I am not the only one with a slightly higher action and 10 gauge strings I also use a heavy Fender pick. I set my action so that I can whack the low E string and not get much rattle. Very slight rattle is OK for me. Having said that I don't like it too high just above 2/32" of an inch bottom of low E string to top of of the 12th fret and exactly 2/32" on the high string is how I measure. You need a small steel ruler. Don't use expensive measuring tools just a simple steel with 1/32" and 1/64" on it. Got it from an online tool shop about a £1.00 I think plus postage. George
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Post by Charlie Hall on Oct 3, 2010 13:23:59 GMT
Hi 26rednef, One of my theories about the Apache sound is that it might have been the result of using a longer or cheap cable, with the guitar volume on full. I tried this approach when I recorded my version of Mustang using a Strat at the end of last year and it seemed to get closer to the early sound. My usual 3 metre cable measures 340pf, the longer 5 metre one I tried measures 680pf. Regards, Charlie
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Post by 26rednef on Oct 3, 2010 20:38:40 GMT
Hi.
Yes, it was common back then with very long and no good cables and I think even in the studio.The 680 pf you had will cut the top for sure. On the studio set up I posted, the mixer was not set flat out and that is a indication on that some thing was not really OK, they had to cut the top. I have a picture that is taken in the studio when they recorded "Quartermaster's Store" and that was on the same day just before they recorded "Apache" and on that picture Bruce seams to play the Jazzmaster and Hank Cliff's Strat and is not needing or using a long cable I would say not more than 3 m but it is hard to see on the picture the Echomatic seams to stand right before his feet.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by rogerbayliss on Oct 3, 2010 23:16:13 GMT
Theres all sorts of ways of changing the recorded tone of the guitar including PU heights and types, Mic placements and the Picking technique is a big part of the sound where the thumb touches the string whilst playing controlling the tone produced.. then the strings and guitar setup .. add in the Abbey Rd and the EQ and their great reverb and it's clearly very difficult to replicate the exact sound in home studios. Many people have got close but yet so far away ...
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Post by saffyre on Oct 4, 2010 9:39:28 GMT
Thanks for all the theories on Hanks sound. One thing I did forget to mention was the different echos that Hank used ie: Roland chorus echo and the Roland space echo. In 1978, Hank used his Roland space echo live with Cliff and sounded too over the top with delay and no decay. I have owned both units and on the chorus echo, the heads were placed closer together near the end as opposed to the space echo where the heads were all equal distance apart. The chorus echo definately had better repeats with a nice decay and you could drive it a bit more and clip the signal in..interesting tone. Some of Hanks tunes also add a slight chorus added. It is a pity that the Roland space echo as been replicated into a stomp box and not the Roland chorus echo.
Saffyre.
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Post by 26rednef on Oct 4, 2010 10:49:07 GMT
Hi.
Yes the Roland 301 and 501/SRE555 has a lot different timing. and 501 has not yet positively identified on any recordings. as you can see below 501 is about the double in delay / head.
301:min speed: mSec Max speed: mSec 121 42 232 81 598 210 And SoS (Sound on Sound) for extra long delay
501: min speed: mSec Max speed: mSec 227 108 531 252 857 404 And SoS 2232 1060
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by martyn on Oct 5, 2010 15:09:29 GMT
Theres all sorts of ways of changing the recorded tone of the guitar including PU heights and types, Mic placements and the Picking technique is a big part of the sound where the thumb touches the string whilst playing controlling the tone produced.. then the strings and guitar setup .. add in the Abbey Rd and the EQ and their great reverb and it's clearly very difficult to replicate the exact sound in home studios. Many people have got close but yet so far away ... Usually, when I hear a track posted here that I like, I invariably ask what the guitarist's setup was - pickups, version of strat, echo etc - I'm sure some get fed up with me asking but my interest is genuine in that I really want to know how a specific sound was created in the hope that I might duplicate it or get close. I invariably end up perplexed because, for example, two tracks played by different players but with almost identical gear can sound quite dissimilar. Their playing style/techniques might be identical but sounding quite unlike one another, which invariably leaves me nonplussed because I then don't know what conclusions to reach. Should I change pickups, guitar,neck, echo - or stick with what I have and keep trying? I'm now leaning towards the latter view and am starting to accept that I sound how I sound and to just get on with enjoying playing. Which is fine and no doubt sensible, but there's always that nagging doubt that creeps in unannounced, curiosity gets me at it once more and I start to fidget again . . . Good fun, this guitar plinking malarkey. ;D Cheers, Martyn
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Post by saffyre on Oct 6, 2010 7:14:15 GMT
Hi Martyn, Create your own sound or you will be chasing your tail for years. My first preference is country picking with a raunchy Tele sound. My second love is the sound of Hank Marvins Strat. If you like a particular sound that you have created, that's all that matters. There are lots of well known artists/guitarists that have a unique sound, but does nothing to move my sole.
Saffyre.
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Post by richie on Oct 17, 2010 15:39:43 GMT
guys i use to be a member of a forum were some really strong discustions were made and strong words were used big arguments broke out. i left that to come here ;D cause it seemed a nice place come on guys be cool who cares who plays what who sounds like hank who doesnt if you find the sound then great if you dont then dont wory about it. just play shadows music and be happy peace richie ps before i get called 2 faced lol yes i know im changing string gauges to copy hanks old tone my choice
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Post by ronb64 on Oct 17, 2010 17:04:43 GMT
mmmmmmm... nice comment Richie ....a very interesting discussion guys and a debate that will no doubt go on for some time yet.
I am a strong believer of guitarists creating their own sound - you can buy as much gear as possible and spend hundreds if not thousands of pounds trying to replicate a sound. For me if thats what you want to do then go ahead and change this and change that and then check your bank balance afterwards.
I have heard loads of guitarists play The Shadows music and they have sounded just like the "real thing". Some were played using Fender guitars, some were played using other guitars and some even without any EFTP and on a different amp to an ac30. If you are a perfectionist and really want to look for the "holy grail" sound, then do so - but I can tell you now "Good Luck" - you will be looking for some years to come.
No two guitars are the same, no two amps are the same , no two cables are the same, no two pickups will be the same, and so on. I am happy with the sound I get and to be honest like many others i enjoy it. Regards Ron.
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Post by richie on Oct 17, 2010 18:27:28 GMT
hi ron i wasnt refering to your forum ron shadowsarena is a nice place. and you are a nice guy. i ment when i was on brian may forum ron not yours lol but i can see why you would see why i ment yours but believe me this forum and your forum havent seen nothing compered to brianmay red special forum when it comes to strong debates oh boy
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Post by ronb64 on Oct 17, 2010 19:38:35 GMT
Hi Richie No - you are taking me the wrong way my friend - I really meant it was a nice comment. I agree with what you say in your post about people being cool and accepting the sound that they get. I even say in my post that we all generate our own sound and I for one am happy with what I get.
Sorry if you miunderstood me. Regards Ron.
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Post by richie on Oct 17, 2010 19:47:41 GMT
Hi Richie No - you are taking me the wrong way my friend - I really meant it was a nice comment. I agree with what you say in your post about people being cool and accepting the sound that they get. I even say in my post that we all generate our own sound and I for one am happy with what I get. Sorry if you miunderstood me. Regards Ron. ah right ok then i apologise to you ron my mistake sorry
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Post by Fender Bender on Oct 18, 2010 19:32:40 GMT
Hi Everybody, Just to add on what was discussed.Chris Kinman told me personally that Hank started to use 'Kinmans 'somewhere during 1997 so, therefor Charlie is correct by saying that "Hank Plays Live" & "Just Hank" video would have been the FS1 bridge pup. I personally think that the Kinmans sound much better but that is only my opinion.Gear is very important to replicate a certain sound but to me,a big part of that sound also lies in one's fingers and technique.As also discussed many times before,there is more than one HM tone as most on this forum mostly relates to Hanks' 1960-1963 sound.Nothing wrong with that either. Hank's heavy mid sound started when they changed to Mesa Boogie in the 80's and although it was not his vintage tone,it is still a very musical tone to me.As much as I also like the vintage sound we must except the fact that Hank moved on,and to me,even with his current tone,he is the master of tone and not much bothered to replicate his original tone.He already achieved it 50 years back and it is "legend", why mess with it? To me,regardless what tone Hank produce an albums or live,it is still him playing and anybody who knows a thing or two about him,will certainly not fail to hear the unmistakable style of our man,Hank. Regards Louis
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