A Question on Hanks Recorded Sound

[GAJ52]

I have just spent the last two to three hours trying to copy as close as possible Hanks sound on the Apache track of 'The Shadows At Their Very Best' album. The reason I chose this track is because it says Hank used a Vox AC30 for these recordings.

I have been using my Jap HM Sig Strat with Tonerider Vintage pickups, Q2 patch 16 and a Tonelab LE with Charlies Tonelab SE settings as a base. Although my sound is close I cannot get the richness Hank seems to get, my sound feels slightly thinner and lacks something (apart from Hank's playing ).

Assuming Hank used a mic'd AC30 going to Dick Plants mixing desk, anyone know what Dick may have added to Hanks sound for the final recording.

I know its a tricky question but i'm just curious.

Glen

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Glen,
I don't have a copy to refer to.
Hank gets a lot of sustain along with a warm sound. This might have something to do with the thick picks he uses.
Some studio reverb was probably added to most tracks.
Regards,
Charlie

[Deleted]

Hi,

Forgive me asking the question, but why do so many players who attempt to replicate Hank's sound so often seem to do so with 'non-standard' pick-ups? If one is trying to replicate a sound, then surely it makes good sense to duplicate as far as possible the elements of the original - including guitar pick-ups.

As far as I am aware most of the tracks we are interested in (and I accept not all) recorded with Stratocasters were done so either with the original Fender pick-ups, Kinmans or Seymour Duncan/DiMarzios.

I have never ever used anything else than the pick-up types mentioned in my last paragraph. There is one member of this community (who shall remain anonymous) who was unable to achieve 'That Sound' with ToneRiders having changed from his original Fenders. At my recommendation he changed back - and now is very happy with the sound he is getting. I am not saying there is anything wrong with ToneRider pick-ups (I've never tried them) but I ask why they are appropriate in experiments such as that described here.

The HBM Jap Signature with its original pick-ups should give a fairly close sound to the original given the rest of the equipment that is being used.

As many have said more than once, replication of Hank's sound lies as much in the playing as it does in the equipment, but if you don't get the equipment right in the first place you're making the likelihood of success even harder.

Cheers,

Ian

[philbarker]

Hi Glen
For what it’s worth I am now using Hank’s version of Apache that he played on the “Just Hank Marvin” video as my sound template. On this version he is using a Q2 and he plays over the conventional backing track I think most of us use. Therefore we get as close as possible to hearing what Hank sound’s like using similar gear to us but free from studio add-ons etc.
I've put this on the shared file. If there are any copyright issues I'm sure someone will tell me and I'll remove it.
www.4shared.com/audio/S1sYwXZp/Apache_Just_Hank_Marvin.html
Cheers
Phil B

[petercreasey]

Oct 1, 2010 9:03:44 GMT philbarker said:

Hi Glen
For what it’s worth I am now using Hank’s version of Apache that he played on the “Just Hank Marvin” video as my sound template. On this version he is using a Q2 and he plays over the conventional backing track I think most of us use. Therefore we get as close as possible to hearing what Hank sound’s like using similar gear to us but free from studio add-ons etc. If you are interested I can send you an mp3 of this version if you pm me.
Cheers
Phil B

Don't forget that he used a Matchless amp On this Phil.

My own view on Hank's sound is that it is mostly in his fingers. If you can't get the sound right with practice then you are not practicing enough

Take care
Peter

[26rednef]

Hi.

I am very sorry but that recording did not sound good to me, the original from 1960 has a more jangly top and even a more full guitar sound.

I am not a fan of the more midranged sound Hank is using to day I think it is the Kinamn HMS PU's that is the producer of it.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[GAJ52]

Hi Ian

You make a very good point about the pickups. Some time ago on this forum some people were raving how good the 'Tonerider Vintage' pickups were for Hanks early sound and not knowing what was fitted as standard on the Jap HM Strat I thought I would give them a go. For what its worth I have a Burns Drifter with Kinmans fitted and they have a very similar sound - to my ears

Phil

Thanks for posting that sound file - its a lot closer to my sound than the track I was talking about.

Glen

[Charlie Hall]

Hi 26rednef,
Hank did not start using Kinmans until after the Just Hank Marvin video was recorded in 1997. For that, he would have still been using the FS-1 bridge pickup.
Regards,
Charlie

[GAJ52]

Hi Charlie

Please forgive my ignorance but what Pickup set does the FS-1 belong to.

Glen

[26rednef]

Hi Charlie.

Why are you always picking on me

I just said I am not a fan of his modern sound, I don't know when he started to use Kinman PU's , to me it is to nasal sounding.
I was on one of his concerts 2004 or something like that, he used your KCP amp and I suppose Kinman PU's and the sound was not impressive we ware may on that concert that claimed it was bit poor sounding. I was discussing it with Chris Kinman because I was in the mode to by PU's and he said if I wanted a full Start sound he could not recommend the HMS PU's they ware midrange sounding. So I make use of the Mk-III and they sounds better then my old 1962 Strat.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[Charlie Hall]

Hi 26rednef,
I respect your views from your technical knowledge. I like to combine theory and practice and find ways to make them agree. I used to be like you and would only accept solutions that made sense from a technical view. Later I realised that certain results could be obtained by ignoring technical perfection, and found that many players got their sounds by doing the exact opposite of what would be technically correct, such as using longer guitar cables etc. What I do agree with is that Hank's sound can be nasal, especially when he used the FS-1 bridge pickup. When Hank used the Q2 for the first time, I spent an afternoon with him setting up the echoes. He was playing a brand new sunburst Strat (54 reissue I think) that Warren Bennett played for the tour. The reason he didn't play his own Strats was because they had not been delivered to the rehearsal room at that time. The sound of that sunburst Strat was fantastic in my opinion and I remember going there the following week when Hank was playing his own Strats (fitted with the FS-1 bridge pickups), and I thought they didn't sound as good as the sunburst Strat had done the week before. I think Hank started using Kinman pickups around 1998. I do not like those either, but I do think they sound better than the FS-1 in the bridge position. For what it is worth, I have a customer who phones me almost every week to chat. He tells me that he thinks the 2004 version of Apache is better than the original, but of course that's his opinion and we don't have to agree with it. My preference is still the sound of the original and that also applies to most of the other tracks from the 60's by The Shadows, with the possible exception of Atlantis which was over-compressed.
Hi Glen,
The FS-1 pickup is made by DiMarzio (if still produced). It isn't part of a set as far as I know, it is just a single pickup model that I believe was intended to replace a Strat bridge pickup. I had one in the 70's that was bought for me as a present and found it sounded the same as my original Strat pickup would have done with the amp's brightness switch turned off, except about twice as loud. It was difficult to balance with the other two pickups. I ended up removing it. The FS-1 is very overwound, I think about 12K against the normal Strat pickup of about 6K.
Regards,
Charlie

[harley]

Hi all

Im probably gonna get linched for this but, in my humble opinion, the "just Hank Marvin" version of apache is no better than some of the posts on this forum

Guard up, ready for a pounding

regards
Ian

[26rednef]

Hi Ian.

I can see your point but sorry to say your last comment here is not one of the most rewarding either here. I have seen much knowledge and interest on this Forum.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[harley]

I just read that back and i can see how it may sound so i shall rephrase my comment...
in my humble opinion, some of the posts on this forum are at least as good as the "just Hank Marvin" version of apache.
It was meant to be complimentary to the posts on here.
hope it didnt offend anyone

regards
Ian

[26rednef]

Hi Ian.

Nice duck and feint a Muhammad Ali on commenting I like that, this is my last on this.
Thank you.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[Deleted]

Around April time this year, myself and Daniel Martin of the Footappers visited Dave Robinsons studio with the TVS3 to make an attempt to replicate the original sound of Apache. This track was always considered to be the elusive one and the one to nail. To me it really stands out as the difinitive Shadows track. To replicate it properly one has to copy every nuance as every note has a different vibrato ending etc so first you have to get that as close as possible (for example not many people realise the last run up on the 'F' Hank plays the notes twice but it sort of gets lost on the original mono version.) There are lots of little nuances in there if you only listen. Daniel played lead with his strat with 57/62's, Vox Ac 15/30 etc etc. Dave used the original soundtrack and after a number of takes we settled on a very close result. Although it was recorded into a top quality Roland 2480 we were unable to achieve the mixture of EQ parameters . We ran the original track side by side many times and got mighty close but we were'nt able to find the fine mixture and concluded that the recording media of Abbey Road probably had the answer.
Tony

[Deleted]

Gentleman.
I poked my nose into a situation on the forum recently and and finished up in the middle of a mess. Some of you will know what I mean.
My view on "that sound" may be a little different from the "Norm" as Dame Edna may say.
I don't profess to be anything special at all although I would like to be, who wouldn't?
What I believe is the best way forward is to take as much as you can from the great masters of the guitar including of course Hank B and then to add it to your own playing and style and come up with something that is your own. I no longer believe in searching for the Holy Grail.
I use a Zoom G2 1u I also have a quad plus both with EFTP I use a Marshall 250 MG DFX amp to blow the windows out if I want to. I record using M Audio AV40 monitors and go from the Zoom to the computer via Cubase. for recording. I use a Jap Strat with Seymour Duncan PUPs. I don't even remember what type they are. All I know is they have a lovely Strat Sound. I use 10's and a heavy Fender Pick.
It resembles the Shads sound but I consider it to be MY Sound and I love it.
I am happy to experiment and have a new USA strat and Vox Valve amp on order. In addition to some more recording gear. I will still use them to enhance my sound. !!

I seem to remember that when Eric Clapton formed Cream he took as much as he could from the 3 Kings , and then made it his own.

I hope no body throws eggs at me but the above are my thoughts.

All the best chaps
George.

[Deleted]

Hi George,
I believe you've hit the nail on the head really because sometimes the more you try to replicate 'That sound' sometimes you can become very dissapointed and dispondent because you cant achieve it. Got the 'T' shirt.
For me 'That Sound' is not important to me anymore but if you want to play Shads stuff you do need a decent guitar, EFTP and the amp, and you'll find you'll get near anyway especially by concentrating on being a better player like mastering more techniques. For example, playing Cavatina where lots of guys just slide up to the notes....not correct learn how to bend like the record that way you sound more professional.
Tony

[tonybiker]

Since the 60's, hundreds of thousands of like mind people have set out to duplicate the 1960's HM sound. Everyone has failed. Not even Hank himself sounds like he did then. In 1995 I spent close to 10 grand on what HM was using at that time, Matchless DC 30, Custom Shop autograph strat, Quad etc etc. Did I sound like him, nope.

Now, when I went out gigging folk at the end would say 'you sound just like Hank Marvin'. But I thought, they also said that when I used a standard strat and a copycat before. When the gear was sold some years later and like now, I go out with a standard strat, quad and Behringer amps they say exactly the same as they did before, 'you sound like Hank Marvin. So I ask, who are we trying to impress? Ourself? Because 99.99% of the population don't have a clue.

I have seen Hanks own strat very close, and to be honest I don't know how he plays it. If I bought a guitar with that set up I would be asking for my money back!

The Holy Grail is the right phase, thats not been found either.

There is on here a wealth of experience, guys who know their stuff. We are often very surprised when a sound file is uploaded and the sound is remarkably close and you see that that the gear used was nothing like what you expected - often referred to as a sound found by accident. Its very close to the sound, so how close do you want to get?

Ian was correct when he said that some of the uploads were just as good as the 'just hank marvin' video. It was a compliment.

Playing technique, as already pointed out is the way to go also learn more about the equipment you already have. You can't buy the sound but you can play the sound.

We are very fortunate to have Charlie Hall, he is the number one expert on Hanks delayed sound. His post is about as factual as it gets.

Tony

[Deleted]

Nice article Tony !!
makes sense to me.
I have had the same thing said about sounding like Hank and I was using the Marshal. I didn't have EFTP at the time and was using the inbuilt digital delay and reverb on the amp itself. It's all I had.
I didn't know either I had heard of EFTP but had not actually discovered this site and C Hall at that time.
I just used what I had and played Apache and The FBI. I even played the FBI with a telecaster once and they thought that sounded good too.
Cheers all
George.

[guitarsam]

THANK YOU, TONY!!! I share your views whole heartedly 100%. Good post. Funny, you mentioned your Telecaster, George. One night at a gig, I played Apache on a '68 RI Pink Paisley Telecaster into a '65 Twin Reverb using the delay from a Korg AX 1000G pedal board, and a woman who claimed she had seen the Shads live in New Zealand in the early '80's told me that I sounded just like Hank. Maybe she had too much to drink.

Kind Regards,
Scott

[Deleted]

Scott
I know what you mean. I once heard a guy in a bar playing just instrumental guitar. All sorts Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Simon and Garfs Uncle and a couple of shads numbers too. All instrumental just him and B Tracks . He was using a Gibson Cherry Red SG. Humbuckers and all.
He was a Brilliant player. Marvelous sound.
I really enjoyed listening to him and so did everyone else.
Cheers again
George.

[26rednef]

Hi.

This guy was close enough, the playing and the recording technique is maybe the most important. Malcolm Addey is maybe the inventor to the sound of the Shadows who has made a great contribution to the book on the subject.
Here some demos
www.italianshadowscommunity.com/Roberto_ENG.html

Kind Regrds,
26rednef

[26rednef]

Hi again.

Here is the studio setup used by the guy for "Apache" checked and passed by Malcolm Addey who recorded the original.
_____________________________________________
Guitar: Greatch CG PU Bridge.
Amp: Vox AC15 Ch II Speaker Goodmans Audiom 60
Effect: Meazzi Echomatic Heads 1+3+repeat
Michrophone: Neumann U47 on 32 cm and 7 cm of center from speaker
Mixer: Mackie 1402 VLZ settings.Treble: -3 Mid: +2 Low: -
Reverb: (Abby Road used a Reverb room)
Lexicon LxP - 1 Hall D Decay at 2 a clock Delay at 2.30
_____________________________________________
Kind Regards,
26rednef

[Charlie Hall]

And please, no arguments about which guitar was used by Hank on Apache! A discussion on that could cause problems here. It has been discussed enough elsewhere.
Regards,
Charlie

[strat197]

Tony - great reply - got to agree 100% mate -

Id love to get close to Hanks sound - but the truth is in the way he plays - the amount of years he's been playing his songs..the changes he makes over the years etc etc..

The backing he has also makes him sound awsome too...

I think sometimes on this site its a competition gainst each other....and at the end of the day were all shad lovers..simple as that really...

Only one governor...thats the man himself !! ;D

I rest my case !

Regards

Tony

[tonybiker]

Hi Tony.

We also have some great players on here and some have their own unique sound that came about from their interest in the man and his sound, William and Peter Korving being just two of them. This subject has always been controversial, the dangers clearly pointed out by Charlie above. Its not worth falling out over. We must also remember the site is not just for The Shadows sound but different styles and tastes although it does lean towards the HM sound. Charlie's site is very unique, and takes credit for being a safe and friendly place to be. Long may it continue.

Tony

[26rednef]

Hi

I don't understand what peoples want to achieve, here is a studio setup that is as close as any one can get and then it is just uninteresting and seen as a source to problems ?

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[saffyre]

Hi Tony, When you said "I have seen Hanks own strat very close, and to be honest I don't know how he plays it. If I bought a guitar with that set up I would be asking for my money back!" , what did you mean ie: were the strings too high or too low? Can you give so more information please.

Saffyre.

[tonybiker]

Hi Saffyre.

I have seen it as close as you can get on two occasions. One was at the Apollo in Manchester and in 199?? 5 I think, i attended the NEC Guitar Show in Birmingham. Hank was there representing Arbiter who were the UK Fender Suppliers at the time. Hank played a number of songs over the two days and then signed autographs. I was there with the UB Hank Club and it was also the same year that the Zoom 508 was launched with shad programmes. I had taken my custom shop HM autograph strat with the intention of getting the guitar signed on the back to go with the already signed scratch plate. The moment he walked off the small stand/stage my 14 year old son walked over to him with my strat in his hand. He got Hanks attention and Hank still had his guitar in his hand. And for a few minutes Hank commented on my strat, clearly wondering what a young lad was doing with a £3000 guitar. I took great notice of how high the trem arm looked (this was before the easy mute) and I could not believe how high the action looked. Had it not been for one of Hanks aids I may have had the chance to hold it so he could sign my strat. If you ever see HM very close up playing, which we could at Birmingham, he really picks hard, almost like a pro golfer, hard but pristine.

And Hank is not the only one to have what I consider to be strange playing action. Charlie himself has also expressed his surprise with his set-up.

Thats story behind that one.

Tony