customs charge

[twang46]

Hi all

I ordered a Gotoh bridge from Warmoth (USA) @ $42 + $12.71 shipping. Ordering direct seemed the best/cheapest way & I have used this many times before from US ( not with Warmoth) without any problems

Today a demand for £13.17 arrived from Royal Mail made up of £8 handling & £5.17 duty

The charge of £5.17 does not add up anyway I can see unless the VAT use a different exchange rate to calculate the 20% rate they seem to have charged on the goods ?

As you can imagine I do not want to pay this !

Anybody been in the same situation ?

I thought purchases under £40 are exempt from charges ?

All ideas/suggestions etc.... very welcome

Cheers

Dick.

ps I'll wait to see if anybody has any ideas before mailing Warmoth

[peterbower]

Dick

I think they are taking the P---, but its a shame you never got your Gotoh bridge from JHS/Trev Wilkinson, they are the UK agents and usually have every thing in stock.

If it was a purchase within the EU, all you would pay is the VAT of the country you purchased it from and any postal carriage charges but no import duty. I should querie this with the Post Office.

Unless things have changed drastically now, I purchased a few years ago a California Ltd edition Strat [not available in the UK as a limited edition] from Fender USA but in parts as in spare parts with part numbers then assembled it at home. The bits came over in dribs and drabs, the body being the biggest bit. I was not charged import duty as each part in US Dollars was below the then threshold for duty. I guess its all changed now.
I got accused by my mates of doing a Klinger or was it Radar in M.A.S.H. when he mailed home a jeep bit by bit.
Peter



Peter

[26rednef]

Hi.

It just money and a just a couples of £ no big deal, I think you will have fun with your gadgets, so why let this be a problem. Over here the VAT is 25% and the custom fee 4.2% a total of 29.2%.

Kind Regards,
26rednef

[twang46]

Hi Peter
The bridge is a Telecaster humbucker cut out one that is hard to get over here & seems to cost around £65 delivered for the Gotoh one I wanted.

Even with the £13 surcharge I'm still "ahead" money wise as my total cost will be around £45.
If Warmoth had been more "efficient" like the other companys I had dealt with in the US the VAT could have been included at source (there is an arrangement with USPS for exporters)

So I now have to pay a "handling fee" of £8 over which I was given no other option by the actions (or not) of Warmoth when sending/describing the contents.

Leaves a bad taste in the mouth as they say

Or............ is it just "back luck" as the customs only "spot check" things & every item purchased from a foreign country is liable to VAT no matter what the value ?

Hi rednef
The monetary value of the surcharge is not the point, for me it is the "no option" levy of fee's + duty that is annoying

Cheers

Dick.

[Deleted]

Hi Dick,

Sorry to hear of your experience, but you've learnt the hard way !

I've given the same advice many times before on this site, but I say it yet again. (Based on my experience as a former Officer of Customs and Excise ).

Never rely on hearsay when it comes to matters which involve import duty and VAT. The Revenue and Customs website has a separate page dealing specifically and clearly with the implications of buying and importing goods from abroad over the internet. A simple search on Google would have provided this information.

As always, find out what is involved before you buy abroad, not after you have ordered .. because it's too late to complain when you get charged.

See

www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/internet.htm


The rules and procedures are different depending upon the country of origin and whether the goods are brought in personally or by third party shippers.

The £40 rule which you mention relates to gifts bought and sent to you by a third party from abroad.

Now the details .....

Customs Duty is charged on the value of the goods PLUS any additional charge for insurance and shipping

The value in a foreign currency is converted to UK Sterling using a fixed rate published daily by HMRC.

VAT is charged at 20% on the converted value of the goods, insurance and shipping PLUS the duty already added - YES a tax on duty (but what's new !!)

On top of all that Parcelforce or the shipper will make their own charge.

Refuse to pay the charge if that is how you feel, but they'll chase you for the money all the way to the small claims court and blacklist you to stop it happening again.

Be thankful it's only a few quid on a bridge you have spent, and not a few thousand on a guitar or TVS3 !!

Cheers,

Ian

[twang46]

Thanks Ian

I'd already looked at the link you posted & was aware of the duty + vat + way it works on goods attracting import duty.

The small purchase I made was well under the £40 "gift" limit & although not the "law" it is widely acknowledged that such small value items do not normally attract the interest of the vat people.

The question still remains though, the vat "rules" state that all purchases over £18 are liable to import vat. I have made such purchases without penalty in the past so............... do the customs just pick the odd parcel/packet to check or how do they check & decide which items to charge duty on ?

Or, does a Gotoh Telecaster bridge look like a dangerous item through an "xray" type machine

I know your retired from all this Ian, but your thoughts would be helpful on the best way to approach this in the future.

Or is there a way of paying the vat without involving a third party like the courier in the future (Warmoth don't seem to be registered with USPS for this)

Cheers

Dick

[peterbower]

Dick

I know it leaves a nasty taste, but on this occasion you will have to grin a bare it, and be wiser for next time.

Peter

[Deleted]

Dick, I learnt the hard way too. The trick is to get the sender to mark the item on the customs docket as "USED GUITAR SPARE PARTS" and then you are unlikely to have to pay a customs charge. I also ask them to mark down the value So if its a £100 item I ask them to put £50. It's always worked for me....

Jim

[twang46]

Hi Jim

I suppose the problem is with buying from a established company is that they don't want to risk getting involved with something that might "backfire" on them..............
I keep seeing things on the well known auction site from the US with messages about "don't ask me to undervalue items" being stated that makes me think that there might have been some sort of "crack down" in the US ?

I suppose I've been "lucky" so far with about 50 purchases from the US, bit worrying that they've picked up on such a low value item though

Swings & roundabouts I suppose (as Peter points out)

Cheers

Dick.

[BarryH]

Hi Dick,

I've bought a few guitars from the US and before I bought the first one I asked on the different forums and was advised to factor in a charge of about 25% to cover the duties involved. The 25% guesstimate has always worked out pretty close.

Other carriers have different charges, I think it's for collecting the money. The first charge I got was for £13 and that was from Parcelforce, it was also the largest I've had, more often it's about £8.

Jim's way of getting the sender to mark down the value is a good one, unfortunately not everyone will do it because the lower value is all they can claim if something goes wrong with the parcel.

Cheers
Barry

[DaveC]

Dick,

As ScouserJoe says, "Customs Duty is charged on the value of the goods PLUS any additional charge for insurance and shipping. VAT is charged at 20% on the converted value of the goods, insurance and shipping PLUS the duty already added". There is no escaping this!

However, the addition of handling charges at the UK end is a moot point. If you already have the goods and they are chasing you for an additional sum then this is straightforward Contract Law. Did you at any time agree to a contract to pay this money (verbally, in writing or indirectly with the seller)? If not tell them to b*gg*r off.

In order to get the money from you they will have to take you to County Court and get a judgement against you (which won't happen). Only if they have this can they "blacken your name". If they do this without a judgement, that constitutes a libel (defamation in Scotland) and you should be able to retire on the proceeds.

DaveC.

[Deleted]

Hello again Dick,

Well, you've had a few replies and comments since I posted. I really can only comment from my experience in the HM Customs Excise (which included time on import processing and VAT enforcement). Much of the principle hasn't changed since my day but the people who enforce the regulations have and now include the recently formed UK Border Agency.

The first thing I would say that these are not just 'VAT' rules, as import charges contain both a VAT and duty element. In most cases duty on these kind of items imported from countries outside the EEC usually attract around 2% import duty (although goods from the Far East might be higher - I just don't know any more).

The second thing I would say, and I have emphasised this before, is that I would not advise any misdescription or undervauling of goods. Okay, it's a bit like breaking the speed limit - we all do it and most times we get away with it, but if you are caught the penalties are severe. You would probably have the item confiscated and be required to pay up to three times the duty due to have it restored. Everybody thinks it is 'clever' to avoid Customs, that is until they are caught. As a serving Officer, I was always more 'lenient' with those who owned up to a bit extra over the limits than those who concealed it and then were found out.

Any company found exporting goods and then misdeclaring or under-valuing them is just asking for trouble. If a trader is reputable (and who wants to deal with disreputable or questionable companies on the internet?) then they will do things properly.

As far as selection for duty is concerned, then all I can say is that more and more goods are imported and recorded on a batch manifest (list of imported items) on a computer, so the value of a batch of items can easily be examined and any likely to attract duty and VAT can be selected out. There is a greater chance of selection now than there used to be simply because there is more time taken checking what comes into this country in small packages than there ever used to be. In the last 5 years I have imported 12 items into the UK and 11 were charged for. The 12th item was valued at £25, so the officer might have been lenient.

Finally, choosing an agent (other than that chosen by the shipper) to handle a package importation into the UK is not always easy and will most likely end up with you paying more anyway. An £8 fee is not unreasonable, and this will rise to £15 or £30 for a more expensive item or if it comes through someone like Fedex or UPS.

It might be annoying, but what you have been charged is not untypical of the going rate and you weren't unlucky to have the parcel checked either.

I'd put it all down to experience and you'll be wiser next time.

Cheers

Ian

[stevebutler]

Coincidentally, I attended a course on Customs Duty this week. A complex subject, however I did recall something about exemptions and looked it up on the HMRC website.

I haven't read all of this thread, so apologies if someone has already posted this answer.

From their website: www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/internet.htm#1

"If you buy goods online from outside the EU for delivery to the UK, you'll have to pay Customs Duty and Import VAT on top of the purchase price if the goods are above a certain value - though Customs Duty is waived if the amount of duty payable is £9 or less."

Therefore, since the duty is only £5.17, its not payable.

[twang46]

Thanks for all the reply's ;D

I'll try & answer the points raised

Barry
As import duty doesn't start until £135 I've just been hit with the vat of 20% of the purchase price
I can't see any "reputable" company falsifying a description so that the customer pays less taxes/duty

Hi Dave (c)
Sadly the post office won't release the goods until I pay their £8 fee + the £5.17 vat

Hi Ian
In my case it is "vat rules" as I'm way below the duty threshold & the charge raised is solely vat. I do however completely agree with you about misdeclaring to avoid duty/tax.
I am still unclear about what % of parcels are checked & at what level the inspector will level the vat charge as you have reported an instance when a £25 purchase was allowed through without charge when the threshold is £18.
The handling charge is not unreasonable in itself & spread over the purchases previously made by me is negligible
The problem I have now is do I factor in 25% on the purchase of every item that I might buy over £18 ?
Do the same rules apply to used items bought from an individual ?

Steve
Sadly I have been charged vat only on my purchase price of $42 so the duty leeway of £9 does not apply.

So............ to summarise as far as I can see the notional £40 "goodwill/gift" figure is just that & my understanding that low value items (£40 or under) would not attract vat was incorrect in so much as it apply's only to genuine gifts

I'll just pay the charge with as much good grace as I can muster (it's not the post office clerks fault of course)


Thanks for all the reply's & clarification

Dick.

[kipper]

the rules are as i understand them 3% import charge. then vat at 20% on top of that from all non eu countrys. then a handling charge from whoever handles it this end. i would allways factor that in in when buying from usa. sometimes you win sometimes they pick up on it. but for sure if you want the item you have to pay. you havent been sorted out or picked on, thats just the way it works. they dont have enogh staff ect to check all parcels only a percentage. hence some you win some you lose. been there myself peter

[stratomaster]

We certainly have had this discussion before, with two distinct angles.
Ian, as an Ex. VAT man. quoting from the HM customs handbook, and the rest of us trying to get to get around paying high import taxes.

Jim, (old fart) states as I do, which is to ask the seller to write down the value of the item, so if it is intercepted by customs, it has a low value. (again, trawl through the other thread for Ian's reply).

One reason why I have been an ex-pat for the past thirty years or so, is the unfairness of the UK tax regime.

Leopards do not change their spots, so I wouldn't think for one moment Ian will change his views on import taxes, however, from experience, the value quoted on the green customs form is usually the figure that the duty is based on, if at all. (Please note, I have the greatest respect for Ian and his opinions as an ex. member of the UK tax and revenue services).

It does obviously vary from country to country, I've only once had to pay duty on an imported item here in Spain, but I've imported the equivalent of many hundreds of pounds from non EU countries.

I'll again reiterate what tipped me over the edge, and do everything I can to avoid these taxes.
I bought a Printer in the UK for around £360 with added UK VAT.
Through no fault of my own, my flight to Málaga Spain was cancelled and changed by BA to Gibraltar. On arrival, at Gib customs I was charged 12% import duty on the new printer. (Gibraltar is not part of the EU customs agreement).
I then crossed the border into Spain where I was charged their VAT on the printer, because I was coming from a non EU customs country.

So, on that new printer I was charged UK VAT 17% Gibraltar import tax 12% then Spanish IVA 16%.

If I can get around these taxes, I will !!

Don't start me on transport companies such as UPS, DHL etc., that's another story!

James.

[MisterG]

Hello all - this page was pointed out to me recently on another forum and looks very useful:

www.dutycalculator.com/

All I can say to the original poster is that he's lucky that his supplier didn't use UPS for shipping - I once got hit with a £30 handling charge + vat for a sub £30 item from USA to UK

I'm guessing that the shipping companies themselves decide which parcels have duty/vat payable (based on the declarations of the sender), rather than there being any direct intervention from HMRC on a parcel by parcel basis.

It would be interesting to find out which shipping companies have the least zealous approach and/or the lowest 'handling' charge.

(One day I will make a guitar related post on this forum )

Andy

[twang46]

Hi Andy

I think you have "hit the nail on the head" as they say with the courier (in my case Royal Mail parcels) applying the duty/vat as per the Excise rates.
For some reason my purchase (tele bridge) came in a box approx 8"x6"x5" via the parcel system in the UK.
All my other purchases of guitar parts from US have come in "jiffy" bags & none of them have been hit with charges as they were processed by letter post.

Using the calculator you linked, the postage charges should have been included in the vat charge which the customs & excise lot would not have "missed"

So............... from my experience, it seems if the stuff comes in a "jiffy" bag there's a very good chance it will come through "unmolested", but parcels always get checked.
Royal Mail parcels do not seem to include postage charges in there calculations

Buying from a private individual who doesn't mind "writing down" the value on the customs declaration will also limit your exposure to duty/vat etc....

Hi James
I have heard of this "cross border" charging before with airlines/carriers just washing there hands of any liabilities. Nightmare.

Cheers

Dick

ps..................the bridge is very nice my total cost was £43 against £66 buying from UK supplier

[Deleted]

Hi all,

This will be my last post on this site as we move house very shortly and thereafter I shall be spending most of my time climbing and photographing the Highlands of Scotland. The guitars are going back into their cases to make only rare appearances.

Yes, I can understand the desire to reduce one's tax bill but there is a difference between avoidance and evasion. One's legal, the other isn't. The Government in this country only ever collects about 70-75% of the revenue that it plans for (well, that was what it was in my day), so taxes are correspondingly set to allow for that loss. So work it out for yourself, if we all paid what we were genuinely due, then our overall tax bill would be 20% lower than it is now. Yes, that pink pig just flew past my window !!


James,

Quote : Ian, as an Ex. VAT man : Unquote,

Ouch, that's a title we never liked - we were always Officers of Customs and Excise temporarily seconded to VAT. Thankfully I spent most of my days looking after shipping and distilleries (hic!)

One more good reason to head back to the Highlands !!!!


Goodbye all, and good luck.

Ian

[twang46]

Enjoy your new life with your camera Ian ;D

Cheers

Dick

[grip]

Hi Ian,

May 11, 2011 14:15:08 GMT scouserjoe said:

Goodbye all, and good luck.

Ian

And good luck to you too, I hope you'll find time to "pop into" the site now and then, goodbye sounds very final.


Kind regards,


Chris

[shadfan4]

Having bought my Kinman pup's from Oz I know the costs of importing gear. I had no problem accepting the UK VAT/Duty payable BUT, the real con was having to pay Parcelforce £13:00 to get my goods I had paid for and the shipper Chris Kinman had already paid DHL to deliver to my address.

I have read somewhere a class action was being taken in Canada against shippers, who having been paid to deliver, then hold the goods in a warehouse and demand more money to deliver in the country of import.

Mike

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ian,
Good luck, and enjoy your new life and activities.
Regards,
Charlie

[kipper]

same hear ian good luck i envy you. hoping to do a simlar thing in the next year or 2 but in wales. peter

[stratomaster]

Good luck with the move Ian, and enjoy your new life climbing and photographing the wildlife of the highlands.
When you are atop one of those craggy summits, listen closely, and you may just make out the strains of 'The Breeze and I'.

All the best, James.

[Deleted]

Thank you, everyone, for all your messages and kind wishes.

I'm not getting any younger and I want to make the most of the outdoor life while I still have the strength to drag the bones up mountains and take photographs. I also intend to expand further my photographic business with the images I capture. I feel time is at a premium these days and I need to focus (excuse the pun) on the things I really want to do for the rest of my days.

I'll pop back here now and then just to see how things are going, but I'll not have time to really get involved any more. I will continue to use music in the audio-visual shows that I give around the country, so will try to keep up to speed with the recording and editing side of things.

I'll be starting a diary page on my website when we move to Invermoriston in two weeks time, so why not join me there and find out how we're getting on.

www.mountain-images.co.uk

Take care, All the best

Ian