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Post by Rick on Jul 4, 2011 22:35:47 GMT
Hi members,I am wondering if the Fender N3 noiseless pick-ups as on the American standard with the S1 switching are any good please ? ...... Also not sure about the multi radius neck, ......... Any opinions please ? Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 5, 2011 6:59:09 GMT
Hi.
The multi radius neck is good I have it on two of my Warmoth guitars, it make the neck working better for bending and more playable in general. The N3 PU's I haven't used but I have Kinman MK-III noiseless on a couples of my guitars and it is just wonderful things good sounding and quite. The noiseless PU's are in fact mini HB's and for Strat type guitars it is stacked to fit into the single coils PU pockets and I think it may not be so much different between the N3 and the Kinman, I can just say the Kinman PU's is good very good.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by Rick on Jul 5, 2011 8:03:56 GMT
Hi 26Rednef,I always value your opinions,I am grateful for your answer,thankyou. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by fenderbullits on Jul 5, 2011 10:55:05 GMT
Hi Rick
I have had an American Deluxe Strat for a few years now,it has the Samerian Cobalt noiseless pickups with S1 switching I find it very versatile although it's not the vintage Hank sound with my Q2 it's acceptable.
regards
Martin
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Post by Rick on Jul 5, 2011 11:08:40 GMT
Hi Martin,Thankyou,I apprieciate your comment. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by Andy Cook on Jul 5, 2011 13:13:12 GMT
Hi Rick
I also have an American Deluxe strat, mine has the vintage noiseless pickups, it's the model before the S1 switch came out. I'm very happy with the tone and people are always telling me how great it sounds.
Best regard Andy
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Post by Rick on Jul 5, 2011 17:03:54 GMT
Hi Andy,Thankyou,It seems that the multi radius necks are a good thing,But as a possible purchase,The noise thing worries me a bit,i need to be sure that when i strap the strat on,i wont be wondering why i bought one,it has to be good. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by pitts on Jul 6, 2011 7:25:54 GMT
Hi I have a Strat De Luxe with Fender noiseless pups... very nice I would describe these as "warm" compared to the single pup Strat'. It is indeed a very nice sound. I don't play blues but I would suspect it would make a nice blues guitar sound. I have also recently purchased the latest Kinman noiseless single coils for my other USA Strat' they are very very nice and do give that real Hank sound (after all Hank did use them on his last tour). I can heartily recommend both BUT they are a very different sound when compared to each other. The other trick to watch, which I am sure you know, single coils do pickup a lot of noise in some environments both types above pups do not. That alone is a great feature of you play out around venues where electrical or dimmer noise exists. Cheers Ray NZ
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Post by Rick on Jul 6, 2011 7:37:22 GMT
Hi Ray,Thankyou for your comments,The biggest worry i have with purchasing a strat is that noise,I had one 30 odd years ago,i sold it and bought a Gibson Les Paul Deluxe .......... and never looked back. As 26rednef has also mentioned,The Kinman pick-ups are probably the way to go,It might well be that the solution is to buy a somewhat cheaper strat and mod up to the Kinman's.I was looking at the 60s classic player strat also partly because the fretboard radius which may be closer to my Les.The warmth that you mention regarding the Fender noiseless pick-ups would definately suit for what i am looking for. Thanks again Ray, Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by sheendigs on Jul 6, 2011 10:23:20 GMT
Hi Ray Just to let you know that I have had Kinman for a long time since 2000..But there is also a trick. You can make them behave like single coil. Kinman shows that on his site. Sheendigs
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Post by peterbower on Jul 6, 2011 13:29:29 GMT
Firstly, I respect all the views on this thread, all posts in a way make sense and we have to acknowledge that our perceptions of pickup tone/sound will vary from one person to another. So when one person says my XWZ pickups sound the bees knees, tread, sorry listen carefully as you may not agree.
I can fully understand the need for noiseless pickups and there are some gooduns out there, no names mentioned. I personally don't like noiseless even though I have a set of Fender vintage noiseless in my California Ltd edition Strat.
If you go back to the early days of Hank's sound, first 2 albums in my book, all he had and used is as follows. One bog standard Strat sold as the luxury model with gold hardware and a Birds Eye maple neck. A bog standard set of pickups [which were not noiseless] and probably not that carefully wound or constructed as they are today, a crappy high noise lead, a humming valve amp, a noisy echo machine, a Studio full of humming valve equipment and yet, we got that lovely sound from his recordings. Replicating all that is just crazy, but I wish you luck.
Peter
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 6, 2011 13:30:08 GMT
Hi.
Interesting.
I have used Kinman PU's for more then 10 years and I even have used many original Start's through the years and I still have my first Start a 1962 bought in 1964 and the PU's on that one is a nightmare at high volumes and the Kinman PU's sounds the same as the 1962 PU's sounded when they where new, to day they are very aged sounding. There is no need for run the Kinman's as single coils with lots of noise. I wouldn't and what's the point.
Don't forget that much of the early Shadows tunes is played with a Gretsch CG and it is fitted with mini HB's and not many can hear any different between that one and the Strat's used, listen to Cliff's "A Girl Like You" a very nice Strat sound, but it is the Gretsch CG on that record.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jul 6, 2011 13:55:33 GMT
We only think of A Girl Like You as being a Strat sound because we thought for a long time is was a Strat! Another example is 36-24-36. We think of it as a Strat sound but I couldn't get close with a Strat in fact. So I have a theory that it was the Gretsch, backed up also by the fact that there is no tremolo arm use on that recording. I have yet to try it with my Gretsch (fitted with flat wound strings when I get round to doing that) but I am confident that I will get closer to the original sound than with a Strat. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Rick on Jul 6, 2011 14:03:28 GMT
............. Aw,Thats it ! A Classic 60s player with a scratchplate loaded with Mini Humbuckers,500 k pots etc, or possibly Mini,Single,Mini, is there anywhere that i could get this configuration made up i wonder, ............ ready to drop in when i get the guitar. ............. Those Mini Humbuckers are delicious on my old Les, .......... My PERFECT Strat. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 6, 2011 14:28:28 GMT
Hi Charlie.
Yes why not, many tunes was done with the Gretsch CG, I would guess the majority of the tunes on the LP The Shadows is made with that guitar.
Any way, it is nice sounding, but not even Hank is sounding like that and he didn't do it live back then either, so why not let it be, it is a nice piece of music history.
I use noiseless PU's because I also use high volume in my playing and don't need many different instruments for it and the sound is close enough both for the old new things, it is a win-win situation.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by tonybiker on Jul 6, 2011 14:50:04 GMT
Hi. I am with Peter Bower on the noiseless PUP's. Anyone who heard Hanks very own 40th Tour strat at the June get together must have been shocked when they heard it Kinman equipped. It's never been about noiseless pick-up's, it's always been about what Hank uses. If Hank started to use 'anti static' pick-up's people would buy them. Many miss the obvious that if your stood 10 foot in front of a miked up matchless DC30 on full cry, which is then hooked into a large PA, then a strat 'may' become noisy. More so if your set up is prone to buzzing. And I have heard none strats make noise as well. How many strats are out there I wonder being gigged live? Thousands I would think, and being a live player of 30 plus years the question of noisy strats only seems to be an issue when it comes to Hanks sound. And before Hank started using Kinman, I can't remember the question ever being raised before that. Noisy strats is less common that many would like you to believe. The Kinman question arrived in the middle to late 90's when Hank was using the FS1/Seymour Duncan PUP's. The FS1 being at least 25% more powerful than a stock Fender pup, is in principle 25% more noisy. Not for recording but for live work, something Hank himself said in the 90's. His words being on why he was using the Kinmans were 'it was a compromise between the excellent sound of the FS1 and the buzzing on stage'. Solo album wise, I would think 50% were FS1 and 50% Kinman. Hank has made no secret that he likes the modern sound. He is not interested in the vintage sound. Back in the 50's/60's, pups were weak and the set up's not very good compared to today. And given I held, saw and heard Hanks own guitar 4 weeks ago just confirmed my belief that there is a lot more to Hanks guitar's than pups, it's how it's set up. No way could I have played that guitar given how it was set up. But it clearly works for him. On a previous post some months ago, I mentioned that in about 1999 I was stood 6 feet away when Hank was playing on the Arbiter stand and later fortunate to meet him. It struck home then how high his action was set and how hard he picks. There are also a few 'noise reducer' stomp box's about which can work, problem is they also take away bits of the signal you do need. Many hundreds, if not thousands have tried to duplicate Hanks sound, all have failed. You are not going to duplicate a vintage sound with modern pups. What I liked about Charlies new unit was how well it sounded no matter what strat was plugged in to it, vintage strat wise that is. It was certainly more reactive than the Quads etc I have heard over the years. So maybe manipulating the guitar sound at this point is the answer. Tony
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 6, 2011 15:36:32 GMT
Hi.
In the 80's I had to let my Starts stay outside the studio they was not accepted because of the noise problems, I used my LP fitted with mini HB's close enough to a Strat sound. Live problems with florescent lamps, or the real nightmare induction loops in the hall.
When I heard of the Kinman PU's I just purchased them for my new Starts and I didn't know any thing on what Hank Marvin was using. Now I know, but I don't use same model, his a bit to nasal sounding for my taste.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by zager on Jul 6, 2011 17:18:24 GMT
Hi,Fender Noiseless pickups are very very quiet but you wont get a early Shadows sound with them. I had an Eric Clapton Strat with Vintage Noiseless pickups with the mid boost/tbx unit installed. It was hard to get the Strat Twang for want of a better word from them.. It may have been because of the 500k pots and the mid boost but I didn’t like them. The fender Noiseless pickups are also supposed to sound better with the mid boost installed than they are with out it. What I do know is, if they are set to the Fender recommended height they sound very muddy so you have to set them a lot lot lower to get a clean sound from them. With mine I had the neck pup so close to the pickguard that it was nearly flush with it. If your after an early shadows sound I wouldn’t buy them. If you played blues type music there ok. They suit the clapton strat with the midboost/tbx but for an strat with out the midboost/tbx I wouldnt install them. Regards Tony
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Post by Rick on Jul 6, 2011 18:03:14 GMT
Hi Tony,Thankyou as well for some really useful info.I have had 32 years of trouble free pleasure from my LP Deluxe with its mini hums,and although i requested opinions on P/Us etc, .......... And you have all made good contribitions through knowledge,thankyou,I think that i will probably stay with the Mini Humbuckers thing perhaps on a guitar like the Classic 60s player,A mini,Single,mini set up,or as the LP Deluxe.I have mentioned on some previous threads that all my Les ever needed to complete the circuit was a decent trem. ( and a decent Echo unit ) and this is the way that i will go,At least for the strat being furnished with a tremolo unit when i get it.I really cant get interested in singles coils having been spoiled by those mini humbuckers. Thankyou members for all of your contributions, ......... and clearing my head ! ......... I had the answer all along ! Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by peterbower on Jul 6, 2011 18:51:25 GMT
Hi Tony Your welcome, I also heard Hank say he liked the more modern sound, but from my latest information he has switched to Fender Custom Shop 54'S '. Not sure if they are the fat 54's or not and they are only on a few of his Strats.
I'm sure Shadows tunes played on a humbucker equipped guitar would sound different but possibly good as well, but not with the same sound as a single coil, in a way it would make a pleasant change and may be more contemporary. Why not.
I also heard that Hank was not that bothered in trying to replicate his early sound exactly but was very keen to have his old echo sound back which Charlie can vouch for, I'm sure.
Peter
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Post by pitts on Jul 6, 2011 20:48:46 GMT
Hi It certainly is a mine filed and opinions vary greatly. Just a point on this comment from Tony.. How many strats are out there I wonder being gigged live? Thousands I would think, and being a live player of 30 plus years the question of noisy strats only seems to be an issue when it comes to Hanks sound. And before Hank started using Kinman, I can't remember the question ever being raised before that. Noisy strats is less common that many would like you to believe.
My job in life is Technical - electronics & Sound Engineer in a venue Theatre. I can assure Tony that this problem is not just a "Hank" Style problem. A modern Theatre has way too many noise producing devices in it. I see time after time many guitarists on tour struggling with single coil pups. (one to watch here believe it or not is the hard of Hearing loop system and its sort of invisible but can cause major issues (like feedback). If this happens to you ask the resident engineer to look at the loop it may be the problem. Sometimes players just have to stand at right angles to the field to find a quiet spot. This is environmental and of course won't happen every where. I recently played for an event (in our theatre) where I simply could not find a quiet spot so had to use my De Luxe. (hence why I have changed my USA Strat to the new Kinman's) I think it comes down to where you are playing, what type of music (often guitarists set a noise gate to hide the noise until they play). etc etc.. I am sure many players would not have any issues with single coil pups. Anyway this thread is great exchange of views and much of what has been said is very valid.. As to "Hanks" original sound... well, its all been said a million times over, I personally think finding the Holy Grail may be easier. Cheers Ray NZ
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Post by Rick on Jul 7, 2011 10:31:05 GMT
Tch ! Dammit, ......... Now that i have read up on the kinman pick-ups again, ........... I might even change my mind,Get a decent Strat ........ if there is one ......... and drop them in. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by 26rednef on Jul 7, 2011 10:37:13 GMT
Hi.
I am glad to see someone working in the field do a statement on this, to many time I have struggled with the noise problem with the single coils and I have to say that even my all over sound is better without them, so I don't miss them.
Hanks early sound was also mentioned. If you ask me it was something made in the studio.
Listen to Cliffs first record "Move IT", the sound we call the sound of The Shadows is there, but not any of Shadows. It was Ian Samwell playing the opnig riff and Ernie Shear on guitar, Franc Clark on double bass and Terry Smart on drums, what amps, guitars and effects they used who knows, but the sound of The Shadows is there.
Kind Regards, 26rednef
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Post by Rick on Jul 7, 2011 10:57:07 GMT
Hi 26rednef, ........... I always thought that the bass line sounded like a slap bass. Best wishes, Rick.
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Post by petercreasey on Jul 11, 2011 9:48:27 GMT
Hi It certainly is a mine filed and opinions vary greatly. Just a point on this comment from Tony.. How many strats are out there I wonder being gigged live? Thousands I would think, and being a live player of 30 plus years the question of noisy strats only seems to be an issue when it comes to Hanks sound. And before Hank started using Kinman, I can't remember the question ever being raised before that. Noisy strats is less common that many would like you to believe.
My job in life is Technical - electronics & Sound Engineer in a venue Theatre. I can assure Tony that this problem is not just a "Hank" Style problem. A modern Theatre has way too many noise producing devices in it. I see time after time many guitarists on tour struggling with single coil pups. (one to watch here believe it or not is the hard of Hearing loop system and its sort of invisible but can cause major issues (like feedback). If this happens to you ask the resident engineer to look at the loop it may be the problem. Sometimes players just have to stand at right angles to the field to find a quiet spot. This is environmental and of course won't happen every where. I recently played for an event (in our theatre) where I simply could not find a quiet spot so had to use my De Luxe. (hence why I have changed my USA Strat to the new Kinman's) I think it comes down to where you are playing, what type of music (often guitarists set a noise gate to hide the noise until they play). etc etc.. I am sure many players would not have any issues with single coil pups. Anyway this thread is great exchange of views and much of what has been said is very valid.. As to "Hanks" original sound... well, its all been said a million times over, I personally think finding the Holy Grail may be easier. Cheers Ray NZ Interesting point about modern equipment affecting strats, we have noticed on a number of occasions, recently at the 'get together' for example that lighting affected Dave ( our rhythm player) 's guitars with 'standard' Fender PUPs but not mine with either Lace sensors or Vintage noiseless
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Post by shawbridge on Jul 11, 2011 10:00:34 GMT
Hi People, with regard to what tune was played on what guitar by the shadows . There have been many theories, was it the Gretsch or the strat, i had a revelation a few minuits ago, " Just ask Bruce" he will know :-)
Peter
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Post by petercreasey on Jul 11, 2011 10:33:32 GMT
Oh Was he there Peter??
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Post by shawbridge on Jul 11, 2011 11:38:08 GMT
I should have seen that coming, quick off the mark there Peter :-)
Peter
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