"That Sound"

[Deleted]

HI MARTYN,HI JAY, AND ALL ,,THAT"S a good ''IDEA'' ''FELLA"S and I have posted many messages on this subject as many many other's have done not only here but also on the old MSN ''charlie's site & if you could put all those messages through a ''filter''' & analize them your answer would be ''there''..
ONE problem is our expectation's are different ,our ears are different etc etc ..

MY recomendation will differ to other's ,but if you read my thread on ''THAT-SOUND-I WANTED TO HEAR'' posted a couple months ago will give you my thought's on my quest for that sound ''I'' want to hear from my set-up..

IF money was no problem thing's may be different ,but in my case as a 69 year-old pensioner & had to buy my gear bit by bit over the last 3-4 year's & made plenty of mistake's along the way ,but if I had the money ''now-spent'' & the experience that I have gained from both ''charlie's site's'' at the beginning of my restarting this hobbie after 45 years left-off.. thing's would have been different...& I would have spent much less money as well..
IT"S been a learning experience for me that I do not really regret as I enjoy experimenting as much as actully playing & my playing is not all that good at all ,that is to play tunes all through without mistakes as I was never an experienced guitat player to start with but my ''ear's'' for the right sound's are ''OK'' though & I only have to please myself as I only play to myself here at home...

MY advice for what it's worth..& on a small budget is the following item's..

GUITAR- a fender squier second hand or new with body& neck in good condition,remove all electric's & bridge & FIT custom-shop ''fat-fifties'' ,250k pot's , a 8-10 ozs trem-''block'' ,better tuning machines [wikinson's are good & cheap] , 12-52 string's &''optional'' to strip all poly-paint & repaint with ''cellulose-finish'' [this i did] but invovles a bit of work ...

ON this alone I would have saved $2000.00 OZ dollars by not buying at first a ''US-STD'' fender strat which does not sound any-where as good....

''ECHO-UNIT'' first choice a Q2 with efpt 79-09 patch set by ''email'' second choice ''magic-stomp '' with efpt also by ''email' as I live in remote ''OZ'' email is great.. I could have saved here as I bought a zoom rfx 2200 ,now never used..& if done again would have only bought a Q2!!and let's not forget that ''charlie programed these for ''the man himself to use for years ''[hank]..

A good compressor-limiter-to use prior to echo unit [boss-CS2-CS3] or as I built ''orange-squeezer'' [which can be bought-or built]!.ALSO I think from a sound-file I recently heard & I don't have one as yet ,and they are not expensive if you live in the ''UK'' A ''GEMINI 3''!!!!!..

AMPLIFIER.. I am still experimenting , BUT a valve 15-25-watt single 12'' speaker amp to your budget obviously an AC15 would be the best choice , my best sound is through a vintage yamaha YTA-25 solid-state amp I have had for years that has a 12'' single ''green-back-clone'' retro-fitted recently.. THERE are a few nice 15-20 watt vintage style amps out there these day's vox& fender that get a lot of praise on this & other site's..

ONE mistake I made was wanting a 50-watt amp & now find the lower wattage [for home use in a more confined space-room ] is a much better option & I am working on an old valve amp 10-15 watt with 1x 12'' .. I have alway's gone for ''loud'' & in a larger area is ok but in a smaller room the smaller tighter amps are the go..I love my 15'' speaker's but in my now room the 12'' units are better!!

THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE TO DATE after 3-4 years only & many won't agree with my finding's & have there own ''story-quest'' & will look forward to reading them as ''WE LEARN EVERY DAY''..

IT"S GREAT FUN FOR ME IN RETIREMENT & WILL BE HAPPY WHEN I CAN POST AT LEAST ''1'' GOOD SOUND-FILE??? HA,HAAAR. before a fall ''off-the- preverbial-perch''?? cheers to all & good-luck with ''that-sound-you-want-to-hear ''............barry...........[PS}

I was given some very good advice back a while ago by if I remember correctly & sorry if wrong by tony-biker? & that was to elevate the amp off the floor coffee-table height & I have found it very good to evaluate sound as the speaker is looking at you & the sound is coming more direct to your ears rather than reflecting off the room walls etc & after this I noticed ''marcelo'' our ''guru-guitar player'' has his amp at above waist-level!!!!!!!this has helped me greatly!!!!..

[kipper]

hi aussie barry. does lifting the amp up from floor level help with hitting the wrong notes. i know having a red guitar improves playing ect. ha ha ha lol happy hol.s peter

[Deleted]

HI PETER ..the answer to that mate is a ''BIG-NO'' ,but you can hear the mistakes clearer HA.HAAAAR .& I have a nice RED-GUITAR & that does'nt help either, ..

What I need is a programed chip fitted &nailed to my skull with all the favorite tunes at the press of a button,NOW would'nt you think our-charlie could do that ,but I asked him once & asked me if I had a USB socket intsalled & the only socket I have are my 2x eye sockets,,,& YES I know a very poor joke peter !!!!!!!!!!!!!!, buy seriously having the amp up at that height sounds better to evaluate the sound & I had not thought to do this myself before being told..
CHEERS mate ............barry..

[jay]

Hullo Barry,

You seem to be a dedicated DIY guy when it comes to guitars,amps etc.
bet you probably re-built your own house

For the rest of us "DDIY guys" i.e. DON'T DO IT YOURSELF! it's a case of
short cutting months or years of fruitless searching and needless expense by having easy access to the fruits of those who have laboured long and hard in "grail seeking". Better to start half way up or near the top rather than at the bottom unless you like to struggle...

regards.

Jay.
I mean about 80% of those who take up this persuit are running out of
time .....bless 'em.

Your advice on using a smaller amp and speakers if all you have is a smallish room and you don't do gigs is the sort of advice which is v.
useful as probably a lot of newcomers will think you need some sort of beast to get near the sound. After all isn't that what the high priests used? Someone else may just want to get a good recorded sound and if so they don't even need an amplifier and speaker cab.

I hope Charlie sets up a "Don't Miss This Whatever You Do" section for all this sort of stuff.

regards,
Jay

[laurie]

Hi Barryand all,

To elevate the amp to coffee table height is similar to audiophiles like myself. When speaker box (such as your guitar amp) put on the floor, the floor would enhance the low frequence energy. In the case of guitar amp, this extra low frequency would smear the bass region of our guitar resulting lack of punchy tone quality. Except some floor standing speakers designed for this.

Any comments? please do.

Cheers to all
Laurie

[Charlie Hall]

I prefer raising the amp off the floor at gigs so I can hear myself without playing louder than I think I need to, but don't bother at home. I think if the bass response is well controlled, as in the brilliance setting of an AC15 or AC30/4 EF86 channel, then it might not make so much difference by raising the amp off the floor as there would be little bass response anyway.
Regards,
Charlie

[bor64]

Jay, I'm back from a short holiday,and I found the soundfile you requested for it's nearly 60MB . So I uploaded it to my 4share account,please let me know if you want the link.

Rob

[jay]

.......so you needed a short holiday in order to find the file

am looking forward to hearing it, thanks.

Jay

[bor64]

Jay, here's the link,I hope you enjoy it.

www.4shared.com/file/103965278/2ff9300f/RobSoloShadsBackStereo2.html

It's the file were Hank is nearly "wiped out" with Cool Edit Pro 2.0.
He's not gone completely but this is the best result so far.
I tried to pas the original recording a second time tru the vocal cut in CE pro but that didn't work the whole "backing-track" was distorted....so I used the version with Hank almost gone.
Hope you like it,please let me know...thanks!

Rob

PS. The file is nearly 60MB so it can take some time to download!

[jay]

Hi Rob.....that was really good and the best i've heard. You should do
some other stuff using the same set up. The software does a good job of removing Hank....can't hear him at all. The only other thing I would say is that you should re-do it so that your guitar sits nicely in the mix.
It's too "out front" on this take.

Must get me some of that software asap.

I know that successfully removing H. depends on the particular recording but there must be other recordings which are liable to this
treatment.

Thanks a lot for posting the file.

Jay

[didier]

May 3, 2009 14:03:49 GMT laurie said:

To elevate the amp to coffee table height is similar to audiophiles like myself. When speaker box (such as your guitar amp) put on the floor, the floor would enhance the low frequence energy. In the case of guitar amp, this extra low frequency would smear the bass region of our guitar resulting lack of punchy tone quality. Except some floor standing speakers designed for this.

Any comments? please do.

This is perfectly exact.

This was a very good reason for the famous chrome stands for AC30 amps, as long used by the Shadows.

Didier

[bor64]

Jay, thanks for your nice words regarding my sound file.
It was recorded a few years ago at the height of the Gretsch vs Strat battle....some listeners still say it was a Gretsch....but most of the people were convinced it was a strat like Hank and all the others who where there told us....
Doing some other stuff....well who knows?
It involved a lot of time to do it good,just on my own and live all of the time in one go.
No real mixing facilities and more important no multi track available.

Rob

[jay]

Rob.......you said that you eliminated H. in Cool Edit 2.0 by using the
centre vocal reduction feature...yes?

I understand that Adobe took over the company some years back and
the replacement product is now Adobe Audition 3. When you used Cool
Edit 2.0 did you just import the track and hit "centre vocal reduction" or was there something else that you did?

Thanks,
Jay.

[laurie]

Good morning jay,

I 've bought the Zoom G2.1u to day. I have not tried yet. I wonder how can i hook this up with my Boss CS-3 compressor? Which one goes first?

Thanks
Laurie

[bor64]

Laurie, if you use the Zoom as an echo,Zoom first...a compressed sound stays compressed whatever you do later in the chain...
You need the full honest signal from your guitar first in the echo,so you can't overload the echo's input.

Jay I only know CE pro v 2.0 and the gizmo I used called vocal-cut.
I just switch it on and played with the settings a few times left and right channel +/- etc
You have to try my friend, plug and pray ;D
Please let me know how it goes.....


Groetjes Rob

[Charlie Hall]

You can try the compressor both before and after the echo unit. Having the compressor first will smooth out volume levels and give a smoother overall sound. Having the compressor after will be more like the compression that was applied to Shadows recordings in the studio.
The G2 has a compressor built in to apply the effect before the echo, so that could also be used.
Regards,
Charlie

[jay]

Hi Laurie.......Zooming lovely!

Rob......just learning some basics with the AA3 at the moment.

Jay.

[laurie]

Hi bor64,Charlie and Jay,

Thanks you guys giving me advices. OK, anyway, I'll try both way. I'll let you guys know which one I like best.

Let me get to know more of this toy then I would move forward to Charlie's patches.

Cheers
Laurie

[laurie]

Hi bor64,Charlie and Jay,

I've tried the G2 and found very difficult to tune up the sound I wanted.
I had been playing along with Shadows Final Tour and my Strat sound can blend with Hanks solo very well except the higher 3 string that in my case are thin in tone even with my little Laneyexcept without echo of course.
But I couldn't find on my G2. Mind telling me the setting that will show the original Strat sound like Hank's? at least to initiate my interest to play immediately.

Cheers
Laurie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Laurie,
Turn the treble down on your amp if you are using the built in amp models of the G2, especially if using the AC30. Set the G2 EQ for a cut in the presence and an even greater cut in the harmonics.
Regards,
Charlie

[jay]

Laurie......to avoid "twiddle fatigue" I wouldn't delay in getting Charlie's
patches for your unit as they will inspire you to play. I think it would be
a mistake if you are thinking of "progressing" to the patches.

Jay.

[laurie]

Good morning Jay and Charlie,

Sorry been out of town for several days and thank you for advice. Yeah, it's a good idea to get Charlie's patches but before that, can I turn my real Strat sound? May be I should try Charlie's way for a tuning first. Give me some time Jay. I know Charlie patches are good. I am just wondering if I can't tame this G2, how can I use Charlie's patches?

Cheers and have a great weekend.

Laurie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Laurie,
The addition of decent echo sounds could alter your perception of your guitar's sound. If you must try to get the right sound before going for echo, try listening to the sounds of early Shadows tracks like Theme From Shane or Shotgun, or just going for good classic Strat type sounds. A lot will also depend on your amp or amp modelling, or whether you don't use either of those, because my patches are intended to be used with one or the other.
Regards,
Charlie

[peterbower]

Charlie has given some good advice here about listening to some old recordings of the Shadows, i will add one more song to that list. That is Cliff's song 'Voice in the Wilderness'. Listen carefully to Hank's backing because in my view its the epitome of his Strat sound without it being too masked by his usual echo, a bench mark if you like to build on.

Cheers

Peter

[laurie]

Good afternoon Charlie and Peter,

I finally went to the music store wherre I bought my Strat and G2 and now I had some idea now but then again I have to travel to China on assignment and havn't got the time to test myself.
What I really like the Hank's tuning is his recent concert The Final Tour but not his old tune. Of course, as Charlie said, the sound from Strat would count on many other elements such as the amp, the speaker used.
In my case, I can't get the normal sound of Strat from the G2 as all the fuzz and wah-wah come out. Now I know how to tune to the Strat sound I wanted.
The now Hank's Strat has a character of being thick even from the first string, with muscle. For this I would count on the AC-30 and it's Celestion speaker.

I would also regard Hank's skill in playing his Strat is much mature than before.

I dropped guitar playing say forty years ago and when I listen to his Final Tour, The Shadows and their playing technics and tonal balance again stimulate my brain to start again. This is the Strat sound I like most but sorry to say,not the old ones but I will find the songs you guys mentioned to see what happen. Anyway, thanks for your advice.

I am out of town now, let me get home and try the G2 again and I'll let you be informed.

Cheers
Laurie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Laurie,
Hank used a KCP Marvin amp for the 2004 final tour that was recorded for the DVD.
I did a lot of the final design work on the KCP circuit so I know what it sounds like, especially having used one continually for about 15 months. The amp has plenty of tight bass, boosted at around 110Hz. Setting the amp for a smaller amount of bass and increasing bass on the G2 EQ might get a similar result.
With an AC30, you need to use the cut control to remove some of the highs. The KCP also has the cut control and it was usually set around halfway, to Hank's taste. It must be remembered though, that halfway on one pot might not be the same as halfway on another, so experimenting with other control positions is advisable.
Remember also that the DVD probably had further tweaks to the sound.
Regards,
Charlie

[stratdeluxe]

Hi Charlie & Friends

I own a Strat with the "vintage noiseless" PU's. Could I gain anything as to getting closer to "That Sound" by changing them to Kinman Hank Marvin PU's (the resent ones).
And if so, are any other changes nessesary (pots etc.)
I would love to hear from anyone with an opinion on this matter.
Love your site by the way.

Best regards from Denmark,
Stratdeluxe

[Charlie Hall]

Hi StratDeluxe,
I find that the early and later sounds can be got from vintage style pickups and varied by setting the amp tone controls to suit.
I don't suppose for one minute that Fender Noiseless sound like Kinmans, but I'm not so sure that it really matters, unless you are not at all happy with the Fender Noiseless.
I think Kinman recommends 500K pots. You can check on his site for more information. A larger value pot will give more highs. It would not dramatically and magically change the sound of your pickups but the final tone balance could be an improvement, or it might not be. What pots do you have now? I thought that Fender Noiseless might be using maybe a 1Meg pot for the volume control and also possibly a no load tone pot but I am not sure.
Larger value volume pots would need a resistor and capacitor added to retain brightness when the volume control is turned down. These parts make no difference to the sound when the volume control is at maximum. The values used would depend largely on the type and length of your guitar cable, unless you are using wireless. In that case, you may not need the additional parts at all.
Regards,
Charlie

[laurie]

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for your valuable informations on Hank's amp. I've never heard of KCP amp. What are they? Mind telling me what is it's power output tubes and speaker used?

Yes, I know there might be some tweak while recorded on DVD, but I guess it won't far off from live?

Cheers
Laurie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Laurie,
The KCP Marvin amp was a separate head and cab design. This allowed the amps to be located off stage with only the speaker cabs on stage, although dummy heads were placed on top of the cabs to make it look good when Hank used them. The valves were 4 X EL84 putting out 30 watts. The preamp design was unique. The two speakers were based on the Jensen reissue C12N (these are ceramic magnet speakers which do not compress as much as alnico speakers but the amp had plenty of compression of its own at higher volume levels) and mounted in a larger cabinet than usual which gave a much bigger sound.
One owner experimented with different Jensen C12N speakers and found that different batches could sound different. He thought the Jensen speakers sounded very good. Vox alnico speakers sounded very good with the amp too when we tried them, but they had more bass which made the low end sound a bit looser.
Regards,
Charlie