Shadow 59 Stratocaster

[eltrasero]

I have received an email from a well known guitar seller offering a Fender Stratocaster 59 Shadow model. Says it is one of 20 made by the Custom Shop in the 1990s with pickups modelled on Hank's original 1959 Strat.
Does anyone know about these guitars? Tis a new one on me.

[eltrasero]

That's great Steve. Any idea who the dealer was?

[John M.]

I think youll find its Music Ground.
And if its the guitar I'm thinking of, its not a "true" 59 model as it has a 2 point tremolo (not the correct vintage style) and 22 frets.
I saw a pic posted on another web site recently along with some comments about REALLY checking out the authenticity.

[keithinalps]

I have a C/S 59 NOS custom order F-red , Abby pups, med jumbo frets, low profile soft C neck, gold H/W, its the only way to get near Hanks original apart from the CRS 59 (which i have)

[somebodyelseuk]

This isn't the Oasis Strat, is it?

[eltrasero]

no, as stated above it would appear to be a dealer order commissioned by Musicground, who are now trying to sell it. As far as I can gather very few, if any, of the Oasis strats have changed hands...as yet. One or two have reappeared on the Oasis website at silly prices. Tactical perhaps.

[keithinalps]

As far as i know only 3 have changed hands, oasis did have one recently on commission the seller wanting a bit over the top 8K. The m/ground one looks like same spec as the Guitarmania dealer select ones

[frankmarvin]

EH ! Whats an Oasis strat??

[Deleted]

Hi,

This is not, definitely not an 'Oasis Strat'.

The provenance of this guitar should be considered with some suspicion as the specification does not conform to a 'HBM Signature' Stratocaster. Furthermore one would also have to question any claim that a guitar is an exact replica of 34346; as far as I am aware, only once has 34346 been copied in exact detail and that was on the occasion of the launch of the 'Oasis' Strat

Frankmarvin .. if you don't know what an 'Oasis Strat' is then download my PDF on Hank Marvin and The Shadows Custom Shop Guitars to be found at Post 22 on the sticked thread on the subject.

Keith is correct with regards to the number of 'Oasis Strats' that have changed hands. The going rate for an 'Oasis Strat' is currently around £7500. They are beautifully made instruments endorsed by both Hank and Bruce and they don't come up for sale often - about 2-3 in as many years. Hence the asking price !

Best,

Ian

[Deleted]

Hi Again,

Further to my last posting, if you take a look at Music Ground's website (www.musicground.com) you will see a guitar that is described as a 'Limited Edition Hank Marvin Signature Stratocaster' for which they are asking £4999. It's an interesting beast indeed although I am not sure if this is one and the same as the model as that being described as the 'Shadow 59 Straocaster'.

This guitar for £4999 has Kinman Pick-ups, yet all the 'official' Signature guitars have Di Marzio/Seymour Duncan.

The only 'officially' HBM endorsed guitar with Kinman pickups is the 40th Anniversary, but this guitar isn't one of those either, it should have a vintage bridge and tremolo, a special ruby above the signature on the headstock. There should also be LED's on the side of the neck, but unfortunately you cannot see whether it has or hasn't.

Finally an 'Oasis Strat' or a 'CRS59' as they are sometimes known, has 21 frets, also a vintage bridge, a bone nut not a teflon one, a darker coloured neck less figured than this one and, most important, Fender Abbey Y'Abarra Custom 56 pick-ups.

Yes, this guitar might be a specially sourced and built model akin to a HBM Strat, it might also be a great guitar to play - fair enough - but it's certainly NOT one of the official series and should not be sold as a 'Hank Marvin Signature Stratocaster' - which is a misleading choice of words given that that is the name given to the 'officially' endorsed instruments. The GuitarMania advertisement for their replica version of a 'Hank Marvin' look-alike provides a much fairer description and sales pitch.

Buyer Beware,

Cheers

Ian

[frankmarvin]

Thanks for your help Scouserjoe, I looked it up on google:

[sixchannel]

Wasn't there a batch of 20 Hank Strats made and sent out BEFORE HBM had agreed to endorse them. Fender tried to rake them back to stop sales of them but I believe that failed. Could it be one of those-or is it one of those HBM urban myths?
Ian

[sixchannel]

Nov 22, 2012 16:40:34 GMT keithinalps said:

I have a C/S 59 NOS custom order F-red , Abby pups, med jumbo frets, low profile soft C neck, gold H/W, its the only way to get near Hanks original apart from the CRS 59 (which i have)

No Keith, the only way to get "near Hanks original" is to go and live with Bruce! Lol !

[bor64]

Ian...good one lol!
There were indeed 20 pre-serie custom strats,those are called "the ones who got away" by collectors....
I saw 3 of those in person in the last 20 years.
One is hanging on the wall about 30 minutes drive from my house.
They get not approved by Hank because of multiple reasons but the main reason was the pickup configuration.....
The 59 strat in the opening of this thread is a Music Ground adventure and they claimed it was a carbon copy of the 34346....

[Deleted]

Hi Steve,

I have done a lot of work on my CRS59 using 12-52 and 13-56 strings. No sound files were posted because the material produced was principally for my own investigations and digestion - although other members of this forum including Paul and Spike in Oz did have a listen in order that I could get some feedback from them.

I was attempting to obtain Hank's early sound - Sleepwalk being the track of choice to investigate. The general consensus of opinion was that the sound produced (through a TVS3 and Vox AC30) was as close to the original as I was going to get and would be acceptable to most ears.

At the same time I did work using a 56 NOS Stratocaster and a 60 NOS Stratocaster similarly strung and amplified.

The overall feeling was that the 56 NOS gave the closest sound to the original although the difference between all three guitars was minimal.

I have to add that the greatest input into getting the sound right was in the playing style, the appropriate use of the tremolo, the fingering and picking position. Which all went to prove the point that having the right equipment will not produce the required result if it's not played in the right way !

Sorry I cannot put my hands on the sound files at the moment - have just changed computer systems from PC to Mac and am not fully organised yet.

Cheers,

Ian

[Deleted]

Hi Steve,

Sorry, but I have no experience of CS54's so cannot comment upon any comparison with those on the CRS59. What I would say is that the difference in sound between the Y'Barra pick-ups on the CRS59 and the Fender Vintage on the NOS56 is very subtle indeed and would not be discernible to most listeners without hearing an original A/B type comparison sound file through headphones. That is how I did all my work on them.

As Hank has commented in interview, he did not regard his early sound as being entirely 'clean'. Indeed, I preferred the slightly 'dirtier' sound of the 56NOS with the pre-amp turned up a little more. This, to my ears anyway, provided the fuller and richer sound which is more typical of the early Shadows' style.

Cheers,

Ian

[shadowkarl]

Jan 22, 2013 7:59:46 GMT scouserjoe said:

Hi Steve,

.
.
.What I would say is that the difference in sound between the Y'Barra pick-ups on the CRS59 and the Fender Vintage on the NOS56 is very subtle indeed and would not be discernible to most listeners without hearing an original A/B type comparison sound file through headphones. That is how I did all my work on them.


Cheers,

Ian

Hi Ian,
seems you can and how would you rate the Guitarmania CS 56 NOS /Classic Guitar Hank Marvin strat with Fender Vintage noiseless Pickups soundwise, compared to the original Fender Vintage 56 Pups?
Thanks for your assesment in advance
shadowkarl

[s4wgb]

This one just came onto the well known auction site.

www.the well known auction site.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-FENDER-CUSTOM-SHOP-STRATOCASTER-40th-ANNIVERSARY-1998-HANK-B-MARVIN-/170979808923?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item27cf30d69b

[John M.]

Never sell at that price.. 8 1/2 K plus !

[hank2k]

That one I don't think is worth anymore than about 4k bearing in mind it's missing the strap and the certificate of authenticity

[martyn]

Jan 21, 2013 19:09:37 GMT scouserjoe said:

I have done a lot of work on my CRS59 using 12-52 and 13-56 strings attempting to obtain Hank's early sound - Sleepwalk being the track of choice to investigate.
At the same time I did work using a 56 NOS Stratocaster and a 60 NOS Stratocaster similarly strung and amplified.
The overall feeling was that the 56 NOS gave the closest sound to the original although the difference between all three guitars was minimal.

Hi Ian,
I'd be most interested to hear any samples you feel best illustrate how they compared - did you conclude that the heavier gauge strings were a vital part of the sound or could you achieve similar results using lighter strings but perhaps with different tonal/EQ settings?

I experimented with Rotosound 12s some while back (wound third) but didn't go the 13s route as the nut would have required opening up to accept the extra thicknesses involved. I'd already carefully opened the slots enough to accept the 12s without the strings binding but figured if I went the 13s (or even 14s) route and didn't like the results, I'd not be able to return to the 11s or 10s I was accustomed to as they'd be flapping about in the wider nut slots. I'd then need a replacement nut.
My short sojourn into 12s territory was disappointing and I quickly changed back to 11s (plain third) as my fingers rebelled at trying to finger bend the thicker strings and the wound third just sounded wrong to my ears. I also found simple, delicate tremolo arm movements became heavy going too with the added tension of the thicker strings and the extra springs needed to counterbalance things.
This was all taking place on a Mexican strat with 57/62s so not in the 56NOS's quality class but aside from the wound third issue that rather coloured my views, the thicker strings did produce a fuller bodied tone - at least I thought so sat the time.

Sorry - don't want to hijack the thread but your comment made me wonder if I should experiment further.

Cheers,
Martyn

[Deleted]

Hi All,

Firstly let me answer Martyn's query about the sound he was achieving and also attempting to achieve. At the moment I am unable to supply the original sound files that I prepared because they were recorded and balanced using Sonar on a Windows platform. My current Apple iMac will not run Sonar (well it would if I was prepared to install Windows on it - which I am not) so I must extract the original audio files from the old PC and re-mix in the system on my Mac. I don't have time right now.

The heavier strings with a wound third are quintessential to the early sound. They also need to be played with a 'heavy hand'. The wound third will sound 'wrong' if it is not used on the appropriately designed pick-ups which have a raised third string pole magnet. If this is not present - (which it is not on the CRS59 in order to mimic 34346) then the solution is to work with a third string of a slightly heavier gauge than normally appears in the set.

I did in fact use a set of Rotosounds 12-52 to achieve what I thought was the best all around sound. I did not make any additional adjustments to EQ whatsoever to the basic settings on my AC30 recorded through a Shure 57 microphone, although Paul in Oz thought some minor adjustments that he suggested did make some slight improvements.

I could not suggest anything better than someone take a look at the videos produced by the TVS team. Getting reasonably close to the early sound is not really difficult as long as you follow some basic rules. However, the more particular you want to be then the more work and finer adjustments are required.

Now, Shadowkarl,

I won't attempt to pass comment upon something of which I have no experience, and I have to admit that I have never heard nor tried the Fender Vintage Noiseless Pick-ups. However in every other respect the Guitarmania Strat appears to be a very nice instrument indeed - it would certainly tempt me into buying one if I didn't already have the Strats I do. To be fair to Guitarmania, they tell it as it is you get exactly what is says on the tin.

John M and Steve,

The 40th Anniversary instrument looks to be genuine article to me and in pristine condition would have realised around £7,000 to £7,500 a few years ago when it was the latest of the HBM Stratocasters to have been released. Furthermore, the run was of only 40 so it is one of the rarest of the model runs issued too.

However the introduction of the CRS59 by Oasis did steal some of the thunder of this guitar so perhaps it is not worth quite as much in today's market. I haven't seen one of these come up for sale for a while so there is nothing against which one can 'compare the market'.

Reading carefully the item description it does not actually say that the COA is missing. The description talks about an 'ownership certificate' not a 'Certificate of Authenticity'. Indeed, I am surprised that the description does not mention the COA. The absence of a strap is not of significance and should not have any real affect on the valuation, however one might also wonder what else of the original case candy is missing.

The current asking price is, in my opinion, too high, but I do think that it is worth considerably more than your estimate of £4000 provided that the COA is available. I have asked a question of the seller on E-Bay in order to find out more and to see if there is a record of its ownership since new. Will be interesting to find out what else they have to say.

Cheers,

Ian

[Deleted]

Steve,

The price is right and Flying Pig did commission and sell the run. The pick-up specification was later changed at Hank's request for Kinmans which were just becoming available at that time. The run was issued with Kinmans. The bridge was changed from the two point bridge (used on the Signature Guitars) to the Vintage style at Chris Kinman's request because it better suited the configuration of his pick-ups.

The full specification and photographs of this instrument can be found on my specification sheet on my pinned thread. The amended PDF download is somewhere around post 22.

Cheers,

Ian

[shadowkarl]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for your honest answer. I was just interested, because at Thomann Germany (which is closer to my place) you can have a real 56 NOS Strat FR at nearly same price, without sperzel locking tuners but everything else the same spec.
Guitarmania said, they are negotiating with Fender for a change to ev. 54 Pups, but available later this year in the September batch.
So when in doubt (and at that price range) with no rating I will have to play and try out the offered Instrument, before buying.
regards Shadowkarl

[Deleted]

Hi Shadowkarl,

Your comment about Guitarmania negotiating a change in pick-up specification is interesting. Frankly, if Guitarmania are looking for this guitar to have a more 'vintage' sound and one which will closer replicate Hank's original sound from 1959-61 then all they would have to do is get Fender to fit the Vintage 56 pick-ups that are fitted to the NOS56 as standard. I would be interested to hear what the thinking and reasoning is behind this decision to fit CS54's which come with somewhat mixed reviews.

Cheers,

Ian

[shadowkarl]

Hi Ian,

don`t know the exact reasoning behind the pup change at Guitarmania. Just passed on the information I got from Chris there. He said in the first place, that the noiseless Pups are more popular, but also that they have changed pups on this guitar on request for Kinmans or barenuckles also. I deduct from his mail that he rates "... the "'standard' pickups on the old Time Machine series guitars were '54 or possibly just 50's and we're absolutely fine...." that may be the one reason "..that the 2013 batch will very likely have stock Custom Shop 54's in" But that still would have to be discussed with Fender. Another reason, why Fender would be reluctant to put 56 pups in this guitar in my opinion is that then maybe the difference pricewise to a 56 NOS is not so big anymore. But that is all my reasoning. Eventually you contact them directly?
Regards
Shadowkarl

[olsson]

Hi
I must say I am a little bit confused. The guitar at Guitarmania has:
22 frets
9,5" radius
Medium jumbo frets
Noiseless pickups
can that be a 56 NOS ?

/Bertil

[Deleted]

Hi again,

Bertil, no technically this cannot be called a 56NOS if it has 22 frets, but the overall specification is based on the 56NOS with some modifications.

Shadowkarl,

Obviously if Guitarmania are commissioning these guitars then they can put anything the like on them with Fender's agreement. The pick-ups fitted to the 56NOS are vintage 50's not CS54's. The pick-ups fitted to a 56NOS are not fitted to any other guitar - that is why the 56NOS is somewhat special or different. You cannot buy these pick-ups from Fender - they are only available from S/Hand dealers who have removed them for whatever reason.

Cheers

Ian

[shadowkarl]

Hi Ian,
thank you for your comments on the 56 NOS Pups and Strat.
So I will have to try it out first and compare it to the sound I have already and am very satisfied with. (Slider 59 Vintage pups like Phil Kelly`s, or on the second Strat O.C. Duffs; then Meazzi preamp (Roger Allcock)Q20 with EFTP and KCP or AC30 Vox (68) fitted with Roger Allcock`s Vintage Unit.
Thanks again
Shadowkarl

[barryw]

I have one of these number 8 of 20 purchased in 1998.  Pristine condition with certificate of authenticity.  So the do exist