Quest for the Sound

[Len]

I am new to this website. As I posted elsewhere (General/Whose Stores?), I am a Shadows fan from my first year in High School. I am also responsible for introducing my brother (he lives north of Sydney in the Blue Mountains – I am in Melbourne) to the Shads. My brother (a psychologist by profession with a peculiar form of OCD) is now a complete Shadows fanatic and is going to Britain later this year for the Cliff and the Shads concerts. He doesn’t play any instruments. I play guitar though and like many guitarists, I am interested in how the Shads obtained ‘that sound’. The following indicates efforts to find the sound to date. Perhaps someone may be able to help me with the rest of the details I need to get ‘the sound’ – more about that later. What follows is a very detailed description of my setup. This may be of interest to some but not to others so I suggest skipping over it and go to the last paragraph to see what I am really after here if it does not interest you.

Firstly the guitars (both with humbuckers): I have a Washburn Falcon (late 70s) dual-coil pickup guitar and am minding a Yamaha (Gibson ES175 type) semi-hollow-body for my eldest daughter while she teaches overseas for two years. I would love to get a Strat someday but this is impossible right now. The Washburn has a single-coil option with two push-pull Volume knobs for the Bridge and Neck pickups and I can approximate a Shadows sound without using the pickup simulator on the Boss GT-3 (Single Coil to Humbucker and vice versa, etc. etc.). I need the pickup simulator for the Yamaha. This brings me to the multi-effects unit and the amps.

I have owned a Roland/Boss GT-3 multi-effects unit for about 10 years. This unit includes 14 amp simulations along with plenty of analogue and digital effects. If I am to find ‘the sound’, I need to firstly use the best-match amp simulation. The GT-3 has a Matchless preamp simulation as well as Vox and Mesa Boogie sims. It is believed that (1). The Matchless represents a DC-30 sampling; (2). The Vox AC30 is the Top Boost and (3). The Mesa Boogie is a Mark 2. Roland Boss has only provided generic simulation titles as do most of the box manufacturers. There is a GT-3 website where there are many discussions and requests to Roland Boss about the Amp Simulation issue. They probably have good reasons for not providing precise details. I guess that amp manufacturing companies could protest if on the one hand the simulations are too accurate or on the other if they are inaccurate. It seems that most other amp simulator/effect box manufacturers are similarly vague about what they are precisely simulating. I guess they have to be careful in taking or seeming to take the space of amp manufacturers and nothing can substitute completely for the real thing anyway – certainly from the viewpoint of amp manufactures. Be that as it may, I end up using the simulation that sounds closest according to how I hear it. The Vox seems the best though it does have a rather muddy overdrive to my ears. This can be modified and you can even set the pedal to control the Preamp level rather than the overall volume.

Hank has said in various interviews that he found the Fender amps too clean and that is why the Shadows settled on the Vox amps. Sometimes, on the GT-3 though, I think that the Twin simulation sounds the best though it is a bit thin on the mid to high frequencies for a true Shadows sound. Using a Twin simulation begs the question a little however as I already own a Fender Vibrasonic Reverb amp (Why do I need to use the simulation if I already have the real thing?). I should explain here that Vibrasonic Reverb is a follow-up model to the Fender Twin Reverb and has basically the same circuitry with a Master Volume, which the Twin did not have. The Dual Showman (Jimi Hendrix used this at some stage, I believe) is the stack version. By the way, for those of you who don’t know what a I also have a Fender Princeton 65 amp and a Fender Champ 6 watt practice amp. The ‘Power In’ input (Effects Return) on the Princeton can be very useful for providing an uncoloured sound (i.e. GT-3 sims. only with no additional preamp colouration from the amp itself). This is where the GT-3 amp simsulations become so useful and particularly because the GT-3 operates best in Power Amp mode anyway.

With the above setup, it is difficult to obtain a true Shadows sound but I feel I am getting there. The problem I have is that I would have to set up separate patches for each sound to incorporate the various delays that the Shadows used on their recordings. Fortunately, I also have an Ibanez AD202 Analogue Delay unit (the one I believe the Grateful Dead used). This can produce a single delay of up to 400 ms (with ‘regeneration’ or repeat) and with the Boss unit, I can get an additional 2 delays; a short analogue delay of up to 400 ms again and a long delay (long enough for any Shadows stuff though not for looping). I am aware here that only one repeated echo is necessary for providing a true Shadows sound as I believe the original tape delays only had one head for a repeat echo. I can simulate wow and flutter by adding a little tremolo and flanging with the GT-3.

I know that it has taken a long time to get to this point but describing this setup is probably necessary towards getting that sound with what I have now. My basic problem now is to find the correct delays to use. I know that I cannot actually program EFTP into the Boss unit. I must do it manually and set up both delay units to work together to produce up to three delays. I can perhaps use additional reverb if needed to provide a third type of delay though I am unsure as to whether the Shadows used reverb or not in addition to the delays and whether this would only succeed in muddying the sound.

All I really need in all of this, however, is some accurate information on what actual millisecond delays the Shads used or at least point me in the right direction. I am particularly interested in Apache, Man of Mystery, Kon Tiki, Foot Tapper, Peace Pipe, Geronimo, FBI, Wonderful Land and Guitar Tango as I have the tablature in book form for most of these. Can anyone help me with obtaining the correct echoes or close to it?

[Deleted]

HI LEN & welcome from 1 Ozzie to another ,you have come to the very right site for the info you need !!

to obtain the right echo's you really need a ''multi=tap'' unit & program it with EFPT by email!!!..
THIS will save you much frustration & will give the correct timing's -level's repeat etc etc!!..
THE reason I say this Is I have been in your position myself [more or less] ..

EFPT- aka-''CHARLIE-HALL'S'' patches are the good's as he spent year's getting these patches spot-on ..& at one-time programed the Q2-Q20 ''alesis quadraverb unit's for ''hank-marvin'',after hank gave-up using the tape -drum unit's he originally used!!..

LEN there are a few suitible unit's to use depending on you budget!! & depending on what you choose you can purchase by paypal-email charlie's patches from ''OZ'' a wonderfull way to recieve them being so far from the ''UK'' .so-easy!!..

If it's only timing's you want you can go to the ''ECHO-TAPPER''-site & read the various timing's..,but as I found you need a multi-tap programable unit & a lot of patience to do this yourself hence my humble advice above..

AS to the unit's required there are several ,the best& cheapest in my opinion is a ''yamaha-magic-stomp'' unit,but they are no longer in production &you have to browse the well known auction site etc to find one,,

LEN , I will leave it to other member's -friend's as mate this is a ''FREINDLY-SITE''. to give more advice on the various unit's available & there preferences,,& check-out the ''for-sale'' thread as well..

I hope this helps len..................cheers & you may read if you like my thead on ''That-sound-I-wanted to hear'' thread a while back in the ''general section page2'',on my'' quest''.................barry..

[shadfan4]

Please don't think I am simplifying too much. But get a strat with vintage pups, strings that suit you, ie: up-to 52;s for earlier shads and 49's for later stuff. A tonelab or my preferred POD XT PRO or other line6 amp sim (This keeps the neighbors and the family happy and sane).

A s/hand Magicstomp/Quad etc with Charlie's patches. a decent sound card/mixer/software for recording. Oh and cut Hanks fingers off and attach them too your hands or practice quite a lot to achieve what we are all striving to do and get "near" that sound.

Good luck

Cheers

Mike

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
Part of the sound is the EQ of the echo signal. If there is an extended frequency response as with most digital delays it won't sound as good. A mid boost around 600Hz on the echo signal would help a lot but that would be difficult to achieve with what you have.
Adding time shift effects to the dry signal for wow and flutter would not be a good idea. If it can be applied to the delays alone then great.
Delays are very complicated as more than one echo unit was used in the early days.
For Apache, try 125ms, 430ms and 600ms. 125ms should be louder than the others. No feedback on any delays.
For Man Of Mystery and FBI, add another delay at 340ms. If you have to get rid of one, lose the 600ms. Feedback from 430ms.
For Blue Star, change 125ms to 180ms, add another delay at 340ms. If you have to get rid of one, lose the 600ms. Feedback from 430ms.
For the rest, try 2 delays at 280ms and 360ms. Add another at around 200ms if possible. 360ms should be the loudest. 280ms should be slightly quieter than 200ms. Main feedback from 360ms. A little feedback from the others. The overall amount of echo depends on the tune. Wonderful Land needs the most, Foot Tapper needs the least.
No reverb for Apache, but try adding a little reverb to the others. Use 100ms predelay for the reverb if possible.
Guitar Tango doesn't have echo as it was played on acoustic guitar. Use a reverb with 100ms predelay.
Regards,
Charlie

[Len]

Thanks everyone for your prompt responses. I will respond to each one in turn

To shafan4:
Yes, I would like to get a Strat someday (probably with Kinman pickups though – I need them as noiseless as possible with my setup. I mention the word “Stratocaster” to my wife about twice a week, with the same “you are kidding” type of response. I would also like to purchase a dedicated delay unit as I said before but haven’t bothered to mention that to her. Such a unit with the EFTP added would be definitely the ideal. I have to balance that against the other live stuff I do that is far from the Shadows sound and requiring other effects and sounds. I still want to use the Gt-3 while it is still going, in other words.

To Barry:
It is nice to communicate with another Aussie on this site along with everyone else. You are quite correct. It is a tricky process to do it all yourself. Thank you for the advice on that. However, I simply don’t have a choice at the moment with my gear. I doubt that most would know the GT-3 like I do, having spent 10 years trying to understand it and reading manuals, GT-3 website posts, unofficial manuals, set-up documents and other supplementary material more detailed than the Roland Manual itself. I certainly do not want to complicate matters (and blow the budget) by getting another delay unit at this stage. I have learnt quite a lot about patch programming on the unit and will set up separate patches for each Shadows number though I might be able to use one patch with say Peace Pipe, Atlantis and Perfidia for example. I could then “tweak” the patch for minor variations and add a 100 ms delay or thereabouts with the Ibanez AD202 (I can’t actually stipulate it exactly) with the Ibanez for Peace Pipe and Atlantis. Charlie has filled in many gaps in my knowledge with his post and I will be guided by his most constructive comments.

To Charlie:
Thanks Charlie for your very helpful response. I would certainly like to purchase the EFTP if I get a suitable Echo unit. I recall reading somewhere here about you not having a programmable version of the EFTP for the Roland/Boss GT-xx’s (they are now up to Version 10 I think). This is why I asked for help from others on the site. I really appreciate your response though as I know you are the person who would know more than most of us on the subject of Shadow delays.

As you indicated in your response, the parameters for setting delays are very limited with non-dedicated delays. For example, I cannot get that 600 Hz boost you suggested on the GT-3 delay. I can only cut the long delay. I can use the overall EQ on the unit for boosting but cannot apply this to the delay itself. There is no EQ provision at all for the short delay. I have set the long delay to ‘flat’ for the moment, though I could try cutting another frequency with the EQ or use the overall EQ to boost or cut certain frequencies. I can also place the EQ anywhere in the chain – before or after the delay. I’m not sure how this will affect the sound though as it will still apply to the whole signal anyway regardless of where I set it in the chain. I do recall something in the GT-3 “unofficial” manual about placement of the delay being important as far as “reverb trails” are concerned. I’m not sure what that means – something to do with the decay sounding “natural”. I’ll look that up and let my ears guide me on what sounds best as I continue to experiment.

The Roland/Boss GT-3 doesn’t have tapped delays that you can place in a series as many dedicated delay units do, as you are aware. It has the ‘single’ or ‘tap’ options but the ‘tap’ refers to sending the delay via separate channels for stereo. However, as I said before, I do have another unit (the Ibanez AD202) which can produce another delay. Exact measurements are not possible though with this delay unit. I would have to match the delay length to the GT-3 output (assuming that is accurate) to set it correctly. I had looked at the ‘Echotapper’ site before Barry mentioned it and had done some experimenting with what I could find out from that site. I’m not sure how the details given there match with your work at this stage. I am just a beginner on this.

With the GT-3, I can regenerate the 426 ms delay to a 41% “tap” to simulate a 600 ms delay (174/426=41% -- if my Maths is correct). I have to use two amps anyway to take advantage of the tapped delay obviously. I have also added, through another section on the GT-3 (Moderation), a short delay of 124 ms to complete the pattern but I can’t seem to hear the two delays together. I suspect that the GT-3 will not allow both a short and longer delay to run at the same time even though they are set via different Effects on the GT-3. I think that may be what is occurring here. So I might be stuck with a long delay tapped to one amp and the Ibanez AD202 short delay along with the original signal sent to the other amp. I can experiment with different combinations of course. I would have a maximum of three delays in that case. I am experimenting to get the levels right so that there is just the right amount of delay. Thanks again Charlie for your advice on the relative strength of the delays. Thanks also for the useful comments regarding reverb. I can set a pre-delay on the reverb – up to 100 ms would you believe (same as you suggested). I have done that and will test it tomorrow (it is well after midnight here). I could also use reverb on the amps (Vibrasonic or Princeton 65) but will probably have more control with settings via the GT-3.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you all for the various suggestions. They all contribute in various ways. I appreciate your efforts to assist.

[Len]

Here is an update on what has occurred so far. I have managed to have some success with the delays. I can get three delays on the Boss GT-3. I can get a fourth on the Ibanez unit. I can also apply reverb. I can also place a 100 ms delay on the reverb. For the 600Hz mid-boost Charlie also suggested, I can only cut it above 700Hz on the delay itself which I think may be enough to take off some of the undesirable high frequencies. Charlie may be able to confirm whether or not he thinks that would do the trick or whether I have understood him correctly. The original non-delayed signal would be governed by the preamp I used (Vox AC30) and any other EQ-ing I choose to apply.

I have programmed the delays into a few separate patches on my Boss GT-3. Now, where is Hank? I think I need his fingers as well as the practise Mike.

I will get some sort of delay one day along with a Strat copy at least though the real thing would be preferable. Applying Charlie's EFTP programs would be go with obtaining a suitable delay of course. Having read a little about the various delays available, I would think that an Alesis Q20 would be the best option for me as I don't so much need more effects or amp sims. A POD does pretty much the same thing as what for that. The Alesis seems to be the way to go that is if and when I can afford one and if they are readily available in Australia.

Thanks again to everyone who helped.

Regards
Len

[Deleted]

HI LEN ''GOODONYOU" mate I did a similar thing once before using my old quad on stereo delay & feeding that to my ''digitech-rp200'' pingpong & did get some interesting sound's but a lot of fiddling was required !!!

when you do eventully get a multi-tap unit you will not look-back len....

CHEERS barry.. ''SA''

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
For cutting frequencies above a certain frequency, 700Hz might be a bit too low. I would aim for the 1KHz to 2KHz area.
My suggestion of 600Hz was for a boost at that frequency, not a cut above that frequency which is quite different. But regardless of what I say, your ears should help to tell you the best frequencies to aim at.
Regards,
Charlie

[Len]

Hi Charlie

Thanks for that. I was very unsure about the cutting of any frequency when I really need to boost a particular one. Unfortunately, I don't have the option to boost frequencies from within the delay itself on the Boss GT-3. I don't fully understand parametric EQ-ing yet, I have to admit. I will keep at it though until I start to hear the differences between the various frequency ranges. I am told that it takes a bit of practise. In the meantime, I will try cutting from the range you suggested and as you say, let my ears be the guide.

Thank you for your help on this.

Regards
Len

[Len]

Hi Everyone

I'm not quite sure where to post this. I don't want a particularly technical answer to my question/s and I see it as part of my "Quest for the Sound" so have placed it here.

Many people in this group discuss various options about delay units. Obviously, reproducing the Shadows sound with old units such as the early tape delays is difficult. Digital units such as the Alesis Quadraverb Q2 or Q20 can be more easily programmed with the EFTP patches. Am am asking myself some basic questions about types of delay units. I have a Boss GT-3 which is supposed to contain some "analogue" effects along with many more digital ones. I also have an "analogue" unit called the Ibanez AD202. This was supposed to be the last of the analogue units and was used by the Grateful Dead apparently.

These may sound like stupid questions to those who have been working with these units for a long time and who may have fixed answers about one type or the other. However, as one who is not particularly technically inclined, I struggle with understanding the differences between "analogue" and "digital" in terms of the relative desirability of either. Can someone tell me what the difference is between the tape units and other more modern so called analogue delays such as the one I have which has a series of chips or buckets (the "bucket brigade") that induce delay. Are they better than the much more modern digital units in terms of the sound produced? Some say that the analogue units sound more "natural". Without getting into the technical reasons too much (I wouldn't understand this anyway), does the evidence for the difference come down to subjective values placed upon the sound; i.e. one's own ears or are there solid reasons why one type should be better than another.

One of the reasons I ask this is that I read and hear about tone purists such as Eric Johnson who prefer the old tape (in his case an Echoplex late 70s type) ones even though it is expensive to replace the tapes and repair units when they break down. Another related question is whether the "Bucket Brigade" type are better than the original tape ones. One of the reasons that digital units replaced these is that longer delays were possible without the sound degradation of the former with delays of more than say 300ms. It is also easier with the digital ones to dial say a delay of 129ms, exactly, not to mention the availability of tapped delays with units like the Q2 or Q20.

I am also not sure where the Alesis units lie in all of this. Can someone help me with clarifying some of my confusion about some of these matters in my "quest for the sound"?

Regards
Len

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
I think that bucket brigade devices can be more limiting as they usually need a companding circuit to reduce noise (which can have poor results with tracking if a higher frequency range is required, fortunately to reproduce most tape echo sounds a large frequency range isn't required) and as far as reproducing the sound of tape I think both bucket brigade and digital fare about the same, as extra EQ and distortions are needed to get close to the sound of tape. To get really versatile delay times you would need a separate variable clock frequency for each bucket brigade device. One advantage with bucket brigade devices is that it might be easier to vary the clock frequencies to get wow and flutter effects.
Bucket brigade devices do not require ADA converters so it eliminates one source of possible undesirable distortions and artifacts, however with the sampling rates that are possible today with digital I don't think it matters so much.
Regards,
Charlie

[Len]

Hi Charlie

Thanks for your response. The Ibanez AD202 does have a companding circuit. The unit has Delay Time (5 settings: Normal, Stereo Chorus, Flanger, Doubling or Delay) and the knobs are Delay Time, Speed, Width, Regen & Blend). It has 2 outputs: Dry Only and Effect. It also has a Tone Control which provides 12dB cut or boost at a 7KHz. I will be applying mostly Cut to that. I will try varying the clock frequency by manipulating the Speed and Width knobs to add a slight amount of wow & flutter (these would normally be set at zero for Delay). I will run the Effect output set to Full to a third amp and see how that goes.

By the way, since, as you said, "with the sampling rates that are possible today with digital", why are guitarists such as Eric Johnson such sticklers for using tape delays. Is the sound really much better or is this an illusion. Not being a "techo" I don't really understand it. I would have thought that the tape units were simply too much trouble (also expensive to replace tapes) and would simply induce more noise. HBM made the switch a long time ago as you know.

Regards
Len

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
I think what makes tape sound subjectively better to musicians is the way it distorts, a kind of compression, and also the highs distort before the lows and mids, so it doesn't sound so harsh.
I have been able to mimic this effect to some degree with the Q2 and Q20 simply by overdriving the effects blocks but it cannot be done with any other digital units that I know of because the Q2 and Q20 allows the use of a low pass filter at the output block of the echo signal which removes the harshness of digital clipping. Real Meazzi and some other echo units have a low pass filter at the echo output too. Unless an add on could be used that can process the echo sound before it goes to the digital unit, that would also mean having to route the direct signal separately and then mix the direct and echo signals afterwards. Quite complicated.
Regards,
Charlie

[Len]

Hi Charlie

If I understand you correctly on the last part of your post about processing "the echo sound before it goes to the digital unit"; I might not have made it clear that I actually have 3 signals going to 3 separate amps which is admittedly a very complicated system. The digital delays are sent in stereo to 2 separate amps, the tapped delay going to one. I would send the wet delay from the Ibanez unit to a third amp, my little Fender Champ practice amp. Once I get my ABY box within about 4 weeks (it's on order), I will be able to also send a direct signal (no delays or effects at all) to my Fender Vibrosonic. This makeshift setup may be unworkable end up creating too much noise anyway. However, it may suffice for a while for experimentation with an authentic sound until I can get a good tapped delay unit with the EFTP.

I was wondering if you can still get the Alesis Quadraverb Q20 in Great Britain through retail outlets. I'm one of those people who don't like Internet purchase and prefer to buy over the counter. If so, can the units be purchased with the EFTP already programmed? My brother is going over to the UK for the Cliff and Shads concert (booked in for the last one he told me). I may be able to twist his arm to bring back a unit for me if that is possible. I have no idea about any Customs issues with that. It's also a long shot and depends on me having the cash by that time. I hope to get over myself within a couple of years, especially if I can get a teaching job in the UK, something I have been thinking about for a while anyway.

Regards
Len

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
I'm not so sure that it is a good idea to use different amps for splitting up the signals, for one thing, the use of stereo tends to reduce the authenticity of the original echo sounds. However using different amps allows you to voice each sound separately.
The Q20 was made only in 1998 with a production run of around 5000 pieces so very few would be available new, apart from maybe a few in the US that might not have found their way out yet.
Secondhand ones do sometimes come up on the well known auction site, with or without EFTP (the best price would be without, and my latest set of programs costs less as there are fewer programs but still all the popular ones are in the set), and I have seen a couple of new ones but the seller is asking silly money. They tend to fetch high prices, but not always.
Regards,
Charlie

[Len]

Hi Charlie

Thanks for that Charlie.

Yes, the only way I could get those extral voices is to use 2 outputs on the GT-3 (for the tap, which cannot be heard without the second channel). I could send both channel signals to one amp using different inputs. I have two channels and 2 inputs to each on the Fender Vibrosonic. I also have 2 inputs to the Princeton 65 (2 channels) and to the Champ. But it is a messy setup whichever way you look at it.

Re the Q20: I have downloaded the manual and had a look at it. I'm beginning to understand exactly what it does. I used to play with someone who used an Alesis processor of some description. It sounded great. I therefore have some confidence in the quality of the brand.

However, if I am unable to get a Q20 easily, I guess the other options would be to purchase a Q2 or Magic Stomp over the Internet (though I don't really trust this mode of purchase) as Barry from South Australia suggested earlier. I am a bit worried with patch problems with the older Q2 though and getting the right software version. I have a USB midi cable. I think it's called a 'Midi Sport' (or something like that) from M-Audio. It's OK for backing up my GT-3 patches but I'm not sure whether it would be suitable for loading a Quadraverb or Magic Stomp with the EFTP sent via e-mail. Do you need a specific type of USB to Midi cable other than one with the usual two connectors (Midi Out and Midi In)?

Regards
Len

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Len,
A Q2 sounds about the same as a Q20 but has slightly higher background hiss. The Q2 has 18 bit ADA converters whereas the Q20 has 20 bit ADA converters, so the Q20 sounds a little cleaner.
I know one customer who has both and he doesn't really have a preference for one over the other.
One big advantage of the Q20 is the switch mode power supply that does not require voltage adjustment for different regions, it is only necessary to have the correct mains plug. The down side is that the Q20 power supply is the most likely failure on that unit (if failure occurs the unit will not power up when connected to mains power), but they are repairable, having said that they are not prone to frequent problems and can last a long time.
A Q2 needs to be software version 2.00 or 2.01 or my programs will not work as intended, and although I have never tried my programs in an earlier version, I do know that many of my programs use specific features that only the later software versions have. There is also no user program write protection on the earlier versions.
The Q2 software version can be checked by pressing the GLOBAL button and holding in, and then the PROGRAM button and holding both buttons in. The software version is displayed on the screen. To revert to normal display, release the buttons and then press and release the PROGRAM button.
Replacement software chips can be obtained but earlier units may also need a memory reset circuit modification.
Your M-Audio adaptor might work OK. I have heard of other users who have them and I think they worked OK. I used to recommend the Edirol brand, but they are now discontinued and replaced by a Cakewalk version. Both brands are from Roland. I think the issue is with speed of data transfer and size of data.
The Magicstomp requires only a USB cable, normally supplied with the unit, but if not, I think a standard USB printer cable is the same.
Regards,
Charlie

[Deleted]

HI LEN & all ,,, I searched all australia for a Q2 prior to giving up there must not have been may sold here ,& when charlie announced that he was getting a set of his patches that could be obtained by email I posted a wanted to buy Q2or Q20 on the US the well known auction site & got a good few responses ,, & as a result bought 2xQ2's at a reasonable price ,but both of them needed the v2.01 chip upgrade ,which I did as well as replacing the back-up batterie's as well ...

THE chip replace ment is easy to do as it is in a socket & is available from a member of this site..

The other thing I had to acquire was a 240-115v stepdown transformer to be able to use the original 9v ac out @20va, which could be obtained in a 240v after market plug-pack , but as I also bought a new''desk-top vox -tone-lab'' from the US I opted to buy the 240-115v step=down tran's [from jaycar'] not that expensive.. ,, there are several mod's done to the original ''A'' board's & I performed one of these on one of the unit's I bought ,but I feel all Q2's would be ok providing the appropriate mods have been done there is I mod that is nessasary for the v2,0-v.2.01 to work properly & is described in the service manual that can be obtained from charlie ,or I may still have the file in my computer??....., but that mod may have well been done in a service on the unit in any case ,I don't hear of people having these problem's ,maybe charlie has??
I also have the ''m''audio cable & it worked ok on my rfx2200 , but I did buy a um-1ex edirol to be shure when i recieved the email ''magic-79-09'' patch-set,, but I was assured by a prominent music store that the'' m''-audio-cable would do the job ok???I have not tried it with the Q2?? , but I have been a bit silly obtaining all this gear without trying these thing's as I am a bit computer dull at 69 y/old len ...& did not want to lose the patches

I have said this many times before len but the magic stomp is a very good sounding unit & has it's own usb cable as charlie mentioned & is cheaper to acquire the patches , but as I have found in my opinion the Q2 has a more vintage sound!!! theres not a lot in it & setting the eq differently into the stomp can make it sound extremly good as the stomp is quite a bit brighter in the dry & wet sound ,I have built a 2x fet preamp that suit's the lower impedence of the Q2 & without this the Q2 sound's a bit dull ,but any pedal used in front of it will fix up the impedence issue a compressor, eq-pedal etc etc..

AND len there more to ''that-sound than meets the eye'' but without the correct echo setting's it is a hopeless task so in my opinion the echo unit must come 1st,& then it's a experimenting game as the original recording's [shadow's]-''that-sound'' is a different sound to the live performances!!!& I feel we all have been captivated with the ''original-apache-wonderfull-land -atlantis -mustang & so on & on...& quite a few can emulate that sound & on different echo unit's as well so there is no magic-bullett len well that is what i have found after 4 years into this hobbie & I am getting close to 70 [3 weeks odd] so I had better get practicing before I can't do it any-more.ha.haaaar ..I have also said this before ..I have now found THE-SOUND-I WANT- TO HEAR '' but that's to my ear's only & we all have different ear's!!!! & that is A.Q2 with 79-09 patch set!!!

CHEERS LEN & ALL lover's of ''the-sound'' .................barry..

[Len]

Hi Barry

Big birthday coming up Barry. I hope you celebrate it well though not too much.

Thanks Barry for your advice on that sound. I'm just checking everything out at the moment as to what I want or really need. I am mindful that nothing will substitute for the real thing. I just enjoy experimenting a little. I find it helps with the learning process. I use delays in live performance (non-Shadows stuff). I like a clean sound most of the time. I prefer to use delay to fill out the sound rather than distortion and other effects. It is good to find out all you can before you rush out and buy the first unit available of whatever your choice is in the end.

Now is a good time for me to do that. I do relief teaching and some of the schools I go to are quarantined at the moment. The swine flu has really hit in Victoria as you've probably heard. But it's not half as bad as the media make out. Most people are getting a bit fed up with all the hysteria.

Thanks again. Celebrate your birthday well in three weeks time.

Regards
Len

[Len]

Hi Charlie

Thanks very much for your helpful advice. I feel that I'm starting to get a clearer picture now with it all.

Regards
Len

[George Lewis]

Hi Len.
Here's another Aussie in Wagga Wagga. I have not chased "that sound" as I play mostly modern Shad's and other melodic instrumental tunes.
However, to "cut to the chase" as they say, here are 7 suggestions for your quest ON A BUDGET since you also have a wife.

1. Ask your 5 yr old grandson/daughter (or neighbor's if you don't have a genetic one) to monitor US the well known auction site for a Magicstomp (any type .. black, blue Mk1, Mk11, Bass, Acoustic, doesn't matter. Buy it (join PayPal) ask the seller to reduce postage by not sending the US power adaptor.

2. Send an email to Charlie for a set of his patches. (This is the most important step for peace of mind and authenticity)

3. Tell your wife somebody sent you a Squier (genuine Fender but smaller print) Classic Vibe 50's Stratocaster (about $700) for evaluation. Don't forget to mention why it's important that a wife has makeup, dining room settings etc, and, shoes for all occasions!!) My wife once mentioned she could understand the need for more than one Stratocaster if they had different strings, so keep that in mind)

4. Invest quite a bit of time in setting up the Strat but no time in worrying about the echoes. (Charlie has already done that). When your "ear" becomes more attuned to the vintage Strat sound, buy a set of John's (JcAudio) pups.

5. Fiddle with the EQ etc on your existing amp/simulator/EQ pedal/ or anything else ... till it sounds right to you.

6. The most important ... study the young Hank Marvin's technique by listening carefully to all those wonderful early recordings.

7. Forget your dedicated quest for "that sound" and just enjoy the wonderful melodic guitar style and music that Hank and the Shad's have left us.

Melbourne ... hope you are off to see/hear Shadoz 2009 on Sunday. Unfortunately Tony and I had to cancel.

Regards
George

[Len]

Hi George

Thanks for the advice. I don't have grandchildren yet (#1). I will scour the Internet when I'm ready I suppose. My wife would not buy #3 in a milliion years though (none of it really), even if I mentioned it at 4.00 a.m. She is naturally suspicious by nature and her name is not Imelda. John's pups are one thing I would consider. I get to borrow my son's Squier occasionally. That is the only time I get to use a tremelo bar which is certainly a big thing with HBM as you are well aware. I'm considering buying a good version of the Squier if I can't afford the Strat. My son's was out of one of those Starter packs and the tremelo arm is not much good and the pups would obviously be "cheapies".

Yes, you are right about the "dedicated quest". It is a challenge but I don't get stressed about it. I practice the Shadows tunes with the CD going and just play along with it. I'm starting to get there with it. 'Man of Mystery" is the trickiest one for me at the moment. The galloping rhythmic bends and double-stops in the middle section are difficult to get right. FBI is also a bit tricky. The rest are not too bad, even Gonzales which Bruce Welch said in his book, was notoriously difficult or something like that. It doesn't seem too difficult to me. I't all fun anyway, something I enjoy. I like the melodic nature of the Shadows tunes. I also like the way Hank has developed his playing over the years. Some of his acoustic stuff is great too on the "Unplugged" CD, and I also like 'Guitar Man'.

I doubt that I will get to see Shadoz 2009 on Sunday. I'm playing myself and we have a pretty full day as a family on Sunday.

Thanks for your input. Charlie and Barry have been most helpful too. I really appreciate the input of everyone on this forum.

Regards
Len