Which Amp

[joeboy]

I am considering buying a new amp.

After consuling with charlie (thanks Charlie) I have narrowed it down to 2 amps.

(1) VOX AC30CC2X: 2x12 combo with Celestion AlNiCo "Blue" speakers

www.voxamps.com/us/customclassic/ac30cc/

(2) VOX AC30H2L Limited Edition Heritage again with with Celestion AlNiCo "Blue" speakers (Only 500 Made Worldwide)

www.voxamps.com/us/heritagecollection/ac30h2l/

I can pick up both amps for around the same money, but which to buy? Any advice would be appreciated.

(Will be used for 50's/60's instrumentals & some blues)

Cheers

Robert

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Robert,
I have now realised that the limited edition Heritage is a mahogony cab. A friend had one of the earlier limited edtion mahogony cab AC30s from the early 90s and I couldn't hear any advantage with the tone because of the cab over the normal models. But if the price is good, then I'd say go for it.
Regards,
Charlie

[joeboy]

My only reservation on the Heritage is the connectivity as it doesn't have an FX loop.

At the moment I have my effects & pedals attached on the FX loop
I have a cable from the 2nd output from my RFX-2000 going into my computer for recording so the amp settings govern how the guitar sounds on the PC. But if the RFX-2000 is plugged into the amp input the only sound the PC would receive is from the RFX unit.

I'm fairly new to recording so if there is another way? Or maybe I am doing it completely wrong

[Charlie Hall]

To record the sound of an amp the best way is to use a mic. Then you get the sound of the whole amp including the speakers. You can get close to the sound of a speaker with clever EQ but it will never be exactly the same because of the way speakers add their own character.
Regards,
Charlie

[joeboy]

How I record at the moment is with the backing track playing on track 1 in the recording software & the guitar that I am playing recording on track 2 of the recording software.

If I use a mic to record the sound coming from the amp, it will pickup the sound of the backing track coming from the PC speakers, will this not interfere with the clarity of the recording?

Or should I not use the PC speakers but instead use headphones whilst recording? (which may be awkward because of the trailing leads)

Then there's the problem with the wife listening to Coronation Street in the next room, last thing I want is chatter from the Rovers Return appearing in the middle of a recording of Apache ;D

[Charlie Hall]

You would have to use headphones to monitor the backing track whilst recording with a mic. It may be easier in your case to go for the model that has an effects loop. I was not aware that the CC2 had an effects loop. What the CC2 does not have is the EF86 channel with a brilliance switch for the early Shadows sound, although there are other ways of getting a similar result from other amps.
Regards,
Charlie

[noelford]

I'm definitely no expert at recording, but I would have thought using headphones is absolutely essential.

Cheers

Noel

[joeboy]

Hi Noel

The way I record at the moment (rightly or wrongly) is as I mentioned above but with the amp volume turned down so the sound I am hearing is through the PC speakers & not from 2 sources, I can hear both the backing track & guitar sound mixed from the PC as I'm recording. Whever I am doing this correctly or not I don't know but that seemed to me to be the logical way of recording. If this is wrong then I'm never to proud to learn from others.

@charlie

I can understand the benefits of using a mic & if that's how it's suppose to be done then that must be the way to go, after all if I'm paying a small fortune for this amp then I would want to hear those speakers in my recordings. If I were to go down the microphone route (you knew this was coming didn't you? ;D ) what would you recommend as a good quality mic for the job that doesn't cost a small fortune?

Concerning the EF86 channel, I do have one of the Gemini III units on order, is this what you are referring to or is there some other way?

Cheers

Robert

[Deleted]

Ho Joeboy,
The Backing track is bleeding into the microphone which is terrible bad news. As has been said you need to monitor both taracks via headphones and a good pair of headphones at that, you will have to have some kind of recording interface like a mixer.
Tony

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Robert,
I am not sure if there is a volume control that you can turn down on the Vox amps. But breaking the effects loop, if there is one, should silence the speakers.
The most popular mic for recording guitar is the Shure SM57. Not everyone agrees though.
The Gemini will do a good job of removing the bass in a similar way to the brilliance switch of the EF86 channel. To get the nearest sound on a Vox with the Gemini, use the normal channel.
If you are using a Gemini you would not need a Cutting Edge pedal as well, as they do similar things. The Gemini can be placed anywhere in the effects chain as it is active.
Regards,
Charlie

[joeboy]

Thanks for all the advice, I will keep you posted on which amp I decide on

[garystrat]

Hi Charlie

I recently changed my amp to a Blackstar Artisan 15, and have got some very impressive results with it.

Two friends who have the "voodoo" technique in playing style sounded very close to what we perceive as being "that sound", although it seems minimalist in tone controls and does not have an effects loop, it has two channels which can be used individually or combined giving numerous combinations.

One channel is based on an EF86 valve, the other ECC83.

www.blackstaramps.co.uk/products/artisan/artisan15.html

I wondered if you had seen seen or tried one, and would very much appreciate and value your technical opinion and expertise on the specification?

Gary

[shadfan4]

Charlie, in your replies you mention the "Gemini" removes bass frequency's as the EF86 brill channel does, could you advise the band of frequency's and the amount of cut applied as I would like to try to recreate this in my software.

Cheers.

Mike

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Mike,
I don't know the curves for the Gemini but I have a good idea of the Cutting Edge curve. The Cutting Edge has 4 cascaded filters so a single filter isn't quite the same.
I'm not sure if it is possible to get the same curve with software, unless you can find a high pass filter and set at around 100-500Hz. Doing it more than once might get closer if one attempt does not remove enough bass. If using a parametric filter, set it so that the curve dips down as much as possible on the LHS below those frequencies. You will probably have to experiment by doing and undoing etc. until you get the right result.
Regards,
Charlie

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Gary,
I haven't heard the amp, but I would think it is based on Vox circuitry. There isn't too much you can change on the EF86 valve circuit itself, but the final result would depend on the coupling capacitors around the circuit. The Vox brilliance switch may or may not be applicable in your amp, whether predefined or switchable, I would need to see the circuit diagram to know.
The G12M speaker isn't going to sound exactly like a Vox blue speaker but Vox did use G12M speakers as a cheaper option at one time. Some years ago I played an AC30 that had them fitted and it sounded not bad at all.
Regards,
Charlie

[garystrat]

Hi Charlie

Many thanks for your views, its an interesting amp because the people at Blackstar are ex-Marshall R&D, and are seemingly are very knowledgeable about vintage and reference amp tones. One of my reason for asking your advice was that is that they associate channel 1 ECC83 as being British vintage "feel", whilst channel 2, the EF86 is more associated with American designs.

The interesting thing is that every time I think I have it sussed, changes in channel and small changes in volume/tone ratio seem to get even close to "that sound", but it is difficult to draw a direct comparison as I'm not recording from it at the moment. Based on the valves used on the original VOX AC15, I am not sure which channel would be optimum to get the best results for an early Shadows AC15 sound. It doesn't have a brilliance switch, which would probably be in keeping with an AC15.

They describe the switched 15/5 watt output as "push pull" and "single" ended respectively, using 2X EL84 pentode valves in class A mode. At the local Shads club we have two VOX AC30's, one with Blues's and the other with the G12, there doesn't seem be cigaret paper between them. However, one of members built his own amp using an original Goodmans speaker, which seems to be truly stunning.

Gary

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Gary,
The EF86 doesn't figure much in US designs from what I have seen. I have seen other pentode valves similar to the EF86 in some US amps, and Matchless used the EF86, also known as a 6267 in the US. Maybe the ex Marshall guys are trying to remove the connection between Vox (who Marshall make) and themselves to avoid problems from Marshall.
There was only one version of the AC15, from 1960, that had the brilliance switch, and the AC30/4 of the same time also had it.
Regards,
Charlie

[joeboy]

I ordered the VOX AC30CC2X: 2x12 combo with Celestion AlNiCo "Blue" speakers today, it will be between 5 - 7 days.

I was really tempted by the Heritage & with the mahogany wood cabinet it looked beautiful. The Heritage would have probably been a good investment too as there are only 500 made worldwide & I may in 10 years time kick myself for being such a fool.

But the AC30CC2X seemed far more flexible & it does have the FX loop which means I can revert to my current setup if I need to.

I also ordered a Shure SM57 mic too, one thought on this though does the mic come with the stand too or do I have to order that separately? I didn't think to ask

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Robert,
The mic would not come with a stand. A short stand would be needed, or a boom stand that can be adjusted to position the mic at a suitable position in front of a speaker. Books could be used to raise the mic to a required position.
Actually, unless it was specifically mentioned, the mic will not come with a cable either, so you might have to order one too. This has probably become the normal way of supplying mics because of different connection plugs that can be fitted, ie. either a balanced XLR connection for mixers or mic preamps, or a balanced TRS jack or an unbalanced jack like a guitar jack (this used to be the most common connection for high impedance mics but low impedance XLR balanced is normal these days).
Most XLR connections would be wired for a balanced connection, which means the mic transformer (built into the mic) has a centre tap which connects to earth (pin 1 of an XLR) and the two outer transformer connections to hot (pin 2 of an XLR) and cold (pin 3 of an XLR). An unbalanced connection would simply join pin 3 (cold) and pin 1 (earth) together. In an unbalanced jack, the cold wire would be connected to earth, along with the earth wire.
Balanced connections are best if the equipment has the facility as there is much less chance of interference being picked up by the cable.
Regards,
Charlie

[garystrat]

Hi Charlie

Thank you, that is very useful and I think points me in the direction of using channel 1 on the 15 watt setting. I also didn't know that the early VOX AC15/30 had a brilliance switch, this perhaps makes more sense to me now. I had to go more towards the what I call the low end of the tone to get a good sound, perhaps I can balance this by putting an EQ pedal in the equation.

I will do bit more experimentation and let you know how I get on, all said and done I am extremely pleased with the Blackstar, the extra cost to get a Heritage would have been stretching the budget.

Thank you once more for all your help, it really is appreciated.


Gary