Q20 vs TVS (1,2 or 3)

[Deleted]

Charlie,

We hear a lot about the TVS products which appear to me to be extremely expensive units for the man in the street who just wants to play for a hobby, even if he is quite keen to get an authentic original Shadows' sound.

I have a Q20 programmed with EFTP by you and I have to say that to my untrained ear the results are extremely pleasing and accurate when compared with the original records. However, the manufacturers of the TVS products claim that it falls short in some way, and I quote from their website :

"However (TVS1), it also overcomes the problem that the inputs of most modern echo units (such as the Alesis Q2/20 or Zoom RFX 2000/2200) are not optimised for guitar inputs, often making the sound quite dull"

I was under the impression that the programs that you have prepared for the Q20 were intended to accurately simulate the various echoes and effects of the various units used by Hank over the years.

So, my first question is : How do you respond to these claims ? And my second question is : Do you think a Q20 owner would benefit, and in what way, by adding a TVS1 into the system alongside a Q20 (as there is no way most of us could even contemplate spending £2000 plus shipping, duty and VAT on a TVS3).

Cheers,

Ian

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Ian,
If the capacitors are removed from the Q2 or Q20 as I recommend (and have been doing for years), there is no input matching problem. The input impedance is 510K at each Q20 input. A typical Meazzi preamp has 470K input impedance. Not enough difference to be able to hear.
The TVS1 could be a good idea to try with your unit because it would add the valve preamp Meazzi sound. The Q20 input capacitors would not then need removing when using the TVS1 but not sure if it has a true bypass function, if it has, then you might still need to remove the capacitors anyway. Perhaps you have done that already. I have not tried a TVS1. I imagine it would sound good when used with the Meazzi programs. I wouldn't suggest that it is necessary for the modern Hank sound when using the 301 programs.
Regards,
Charlie

[fenderplucker]

Hi Charlie and Ian,

If I might reinforce Charlie's comments, his mod of the input circuit does indeed remove the matching problem. However, there are many non-EFTP Q2's and Q20's that people are using in the chain directly between the guitar and amp for which the original comment stands: the sound will be dull and lifeless. Another way around the problem is to use them in an effects loop, if your amp has one. The particular benefit of a TVS1 with a Q20 is exactly as Charlie says: it adds the valve preamp Meazzi sound that further enhances the excellent EFTP echoes.

You should still remove the capacitors in the Q2/20 if not already done by Charlie, since the TVS1 has a true bypass and you could then hear the effect of the TVS1 simply at a twist of the mode switch on the TVS1.

The benefits of a TVS2 or TVS3 are then mainly to do with the simulation of magnetic recording process for the echoes, which is done very differently in the Q2/20 and the TVS2/3, as well as a myriad of other things. Just how important they are, I think, depends entirely on the ear of the beholder and what cost-performance balance best suits their needs. For many a 508 will give enormous satisfaction and for them that is a great choice. For others nothing less than a drum Meazzi will do (if you could ever get one!). In between there are many other worthy choices like the Magicstomp, the various Alesis Quadraverbs and others such as Zoom, Roland tape, ESE and, dare I say it, TVS2 and TVS3. At the end of the day I think that the important thing is to get maximum pleasure and enjoyment from the music, and have the equipment that gets you there however modest or otherwise.

Regards,

Paul.

[Deleted]

Hi Charlie and Paul,

Thanks for your very interesting replies.

Charlie, you will know better than I what was done when the EFTP echoes were installed and whether or not any capacitors were removed. Both my units were sent to you without any work being carried out by me (sorry, I don't have that technical knowledge or competence) and I haven't touched them since and the seals are intact. The first unit was programmed in December 2005, the second in October 2006. Can you recall what you did ?

So, do I read this right then, that a TVS1 could be used in line before the Q20 with no further modifications to either unit, and I might benefit by the addition of the valve preamp Meazzi sound?

If so, then this option is a lot more reasonable option for those who might want to go that way than forking out £2000 plus for what to some extent what would be a whole new system with a TVS3.

Thanks

Ian

[Deleted]

WELL SAID charlie&paul it comes down to ''HORSES-FOR-COURSES'' ..

There is no ''one-magic-bullet'' it is a series of element's ...including the player!!!!

''GOODONYOU'' ''ALL'' & may all your sound's come to you as mine have to my ear's at least ....

barry..

[Charlie Hall]

Thanks Paul for explaining.

Hi Ian,
I wasn't sure whether I had done the programming or whether you had programmed it from the new files that I send by email.
Now that you have clarified, I can say that I always remove the capacitors on any Q2 or Q20 unit, unless I am specifically asked not to (this only happened once and I remember who it was).
As far as I understand, the TVS1 would just go between the guitar and Q20 (not allowing for any other items you may have added such as volume pedal, compressor, etc.), no other mods would be needed.
I will point out that the Meazzi sound applied would be to the whole signal, and not just the echoes. My echo programs do already have the required frequency responses so it should work well.
Since the TVS1 has a true bypass, as confirmed by Paul, it would be advisable to keep the connecting signal cable from the TV1 to the Q20 fairly short, to minimise as much as possible the total cable capacitance seen by the guitar for when the TVS1 is used in the bypass mode.
Regards,
Charlie

[twang46]

Hi Charlie

Just wondering if the removing of caps applies to all the Quadraverb range ? not just the Q series mentioned in this thread.
Mine is the Quad +

Cheers

Dick.

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Dick,
No, it only applies to the Q2 and Q20. The Quad Plus and GT inputs do not have the capacitors. The input impedances of the older units are about the same as the Q2 or Q20 after those are modified.
Regards,
Charlie

[twang46]

Thanks Charlie

Dick

[garyallen]

Hi to all..Is the tvs1 just a valve pre-amp ?..Charlie if you re reading..Did Hank try to achieve something similar on the final tour with an ADA-MP1 pre-amp....thanks..Gary

[Charlie Hall]

Hi Gary,
I'll leave it to Paul to answer about the TVS1.
Hank used the ADA MP2 preamp live only to generate overdriven sounds to use for certain lead breaks. This was then processed by a Marshall JFX-1 for delay/reverb, then to one channel of the amp. The clean sound was the guitar, transmitter, volume pedal, A/B box, Q20, and the other channel of the amp.
Regards,
Charlie