Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 5, 2015 13:04:16 GMT
We had a particularly long hot summer this year and during the hottest days finally I decided to upgrade my Magicstomp by adding a fan to it. I have been thinking about it since I got it (2006) but never got around to do it. By now I do believe that the most common and frequent failures of the Magicstomp (the LCD display) is the straight result of the heat that gets generated by the two voltage regulator chips on the left side of the MS and possibly the three (large grey) resistors above them and since Yamaha forgot to design an escape route for the heat, it gets trapped inside the box (and since the hot air always goes upward) and as a result, the most sensitive electronic component the LCD "takes all the heat" literally speaking since that is the one that's located on the highest point of the unit. Since the day I installed the fan, my Magicstomp runs cool all the time, no matter which part of the top surface I touch, the temperature is the same everywhere. But the temperature of the exhaust air significantly warmer than the ambient temperature. Since it doesn't have a chance to heat up at the first place, (obviously you couldn't dry your hair with it) but I first I was bit "horrified" to notice the difference in the temperatures. (and felt justified  I do have an old (1995) Onkyo Stereo with a similar LCD display on the front panel of it, it's been on 24/7/365 since 1995 and it never failed. Why should it? I think, Yamaha really made a mistake not considering the trapped heat that slowly but surely destroys the LCD in the MS. The fan, that I used was a spare one, it's a 12V DC one and at the present I'm using it with a variable voltage AC/DC adapter since I didn't know how fast I want the fan to run since it does have a certain noise level depending on the speed i.e. RPM. Right now I have the AC/DC adapter set to 5V and I cannot hear the fan at all in a silent room. (If I start playing most likely I wouldn't hear the fan even if it was running on 12V.) The other thing that I had to consider when I was designing the cooling method is that most dust in a home is on or near the floor or the carpet, so I was considering putting some kind of screen inside the case right where I drilled the vent holes on, to filter out the larger dust particles, I might do that later, but since I use it only in my home and I prefer to place the MS on a chair or a desk for easy access, I'm not really concerned about large volume of dust. (but if that would be the case, it's easy to vacuum it out by holding the vacuum wand to the outside of the drilled grill every time you vacuum the room. The 3rd thing that I had to consider was, that since I didn't want to drag the hot air across the whole unit from the left to right, I had to place the fan right next to the two hot chips but since the case has been drilled on the opposite side of the unit as a result the whole circuitry on the top and the bottom gets cooled during operation. If you're interested, I posted a few pictures of the project here: www.pumi.org/geza/temp/browseable/mstompGeza ------------------------------------------------- overheating,hot,warm |
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Post by sheendigs on Sept 5, 2015 23:23:10 GMT
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 6, 2015 8:53:28 GMT
Hi Sheendigs, As I mentioned in my posting now that I have the fan voltage set to 5V, I cannot hear it, but I do know, that my hearing is far from being perfect, and I also have tinnitus, so it is easily possible that what I cannot hear would really bother you if you have perfect or near perfect hearing. (I'll measure the voltage on the fan later just for me to know how much voltage it is actually running on, because the voltage values on the voltage selector of these AC/DC adapters are just approximate values.) I used this specific fan because I had a spare one laying around, but I used US Toyo fans to replace fans in PCs when I lived in California and they're good quality. You can get this brand (US Toyo) in many different sizes and wattage, also you can get ones that work on 5V instead of 12, just check out their website for more info, specs, including decibel info: www.ustoyofan.com/But, I advise you to use a "sucker" fan instead of a "blower" in the case of the Magicstomp because the primary purpose of the fan supposed to be getting rid of the hot air right at the source (which in this case are the two chips and 3 resistors above them on the left side of the MS) and the only way to do that is by sucking the hot air away from these parts so that it won't have a chance to spread inside the unit. With this method you also get a freebie, both the upper and bottom side of the entire PCB gets cooled. Using a blower, you would have to install the blower on the other side of the unit, drill holes on the left side near the hot components but there is no guarantee for the entire PCB to get cooled evenly. The hot parts would be cooled definitely if you cut or drill the exhaust holes right next to them, but not the rest of the components inside the MS. In the industry blower type fans are mostly used for directed cooling, for e.g. to cool the heat sink of a CPU inside a PC or a laptop, or in case of laser printers to keep the fuser assembly cool during the printing cycle. So, the bottom line is that since the other parts of the MS doesn't get too hot, the blower fan solution would probably work for you, but I chose the sucker type for the reasons mentioned above and because my hearing is not too sensitive. Just thought of something: the cooling fan of my laptop is louder than the fan on my Magicstomp. Let me know if you decided to do the project then I'll give you a few hints or tips on the details in order to reduce the chance of damaging the nice housing of the Magicstomp. Geza |
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Post by sheendigs on Sept 6, 2015 17:20:37 GMT
Hi Geza
Thanks for the info..I am not yet ready..I have an old magicstomp..
Perhaps I will use that..I will let you know if you still have those tips.
Sheendigs
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Post by John Collins on Sept 6, 2015 22:38:29 GMT
Hi Geza,
Ingenious solution! The LCD display in the magicstomp does seem prone to failure. I have replaced a few of them - it's a fiddly job because of the way it has been soldered.
I think the main cause of heat build up in the magicstomp is due to the insulating properties of the thick plastic case. A metal case would have allowed heat to dissipate into the atmosphere instead of trapping it inside.
John
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Post by didier on Sept 7, 2015 8:15:17 GMT
Great work ! It would have been more difficult to make a water cooled Magicstomp !  Didier |
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 7, 2015 9:30:53 GMT
Hi John,
I think, you're right about the difference that a case made of metal would have made.
I still don't like the fact that they put 95% of the components including gazillion electrolyte caps on the bottom of the PCB and not just the lack of metal case but the sealing effect of the PCB "ceiling" even assisted to trap more heat in the lower "chamber" of the Magicstomp.
How could Yamaha forget about heat dissipation, a fundamental part of any electronic equipment design when they include part of a power supply "under the hood"?
Back in 2006 I took temp measurements in the lower chamber only, I wasn't aware of the 3 large resistors in the upper chamber, but the measurements even in the lower chamber near the chips raised a red flag in me back then.
I wrote to the manufacturer about this including exact temp measurements (air, not component) taken with a remote sensor from inside the unit, I don't remember their answer exactly but it was a standard brush off answer somewhere along the line of "All of our products are designed and tested by our engineers according to the highest industry standards...". A year later they stopped manufacturing it, probably because of too many heat related problems from musicians who used it 24/7 for the living, not always in an air-conditioned room or outdoor stage.
Like if one engineer designed the outer shell first in one country, which I think is a really nice design, Pininfarina could have claimed it for himself back then (besides the total lack of gill-slits), then another engineer designed the circuit in another country and the only data that he was given at start was the dimensions of the PCB and then at the headquarters bean counters realized that the profit margin would have been too low, so the management dropped the idea of making the case out of metal based on the circuit designer's instructions, instead they opted for the lot cheaper ABS plastic and without thoroughly testing it in assembled state, they rushed to start manufacturing it in a 3rd country to make it to the deadline of the upcoming NAMM show in Vegas and sell it all over the world.
I think, the previous stomp pedals like AG Stomp or the DG Stomp and others were made out of metal, I am not sure since I only saw them on pictures, but the plastic Magicstomp indeed smells like the result of the total lack of Toyota Way (constant feedback from the factory to the R&D department) AND/OR based on financial decision.
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 7, 2015 9:59:42 GMT
Thank you Didier, indeed, water cooling solution would have been quite cumbersome. The only options I considered were these:
1. Drilling holes on the left top and side of the unit near the chips and resistors
2. cooling fan
3. Just do nothing.
I picked the 3rd one for 9 years because I didn't have time to deal with this (nor to play), but this summer I decided to do the fan version because I wanted a long term solution and considered all the electrolytic caps, so that cooler the unit runs, longer those caps last.
Geza
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Post by zvereczi on Sept 7, 2015 13:03:08 GMT
As I'm trying to replace the faulty LCD of my friend's Magicstomp (see my comments at the Display failure thread  I also had a feeling that the LCD died due to overheating, however my experience is that the R178 resistor, which is not so far from the LCD is getting quite hot (but I agree IC112 and IC113 on the bottom are also generating heat). I think this is not so normal. Anyone else experienced this? Before reading this thread, I was thinking about driving the heat from R178 and IC112,113 to the metal base plate somehow...? Nice job, Géza! That surely resolves the overheating issues. |
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 8, 2015 6:47:03 GMT
Thanks Zoltán, yes it does.
Geza
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Post by George Lewis on Sept 8, 2015 8:24:40 GMT
Hi Geza, Wow, you certainly aren't taking any chances ... you could do gigs in the Sahara !  I suspect Yamaha Engineers checked heat tolerances on all the electronic components but failed to assess the LCD display correctly. Clearly there is a reason why the LCD consistently fails after a few years and your theory about the excessive heat over a long period is highly likely. My MS (used constantly) lasted over 7 years before dying recently so out came the pristine backup unit. I had already some time ago purchased from China, 2 of the JD162A units (about $5 incl postage !) just in case. After this LCD issue was raised again I decided to do the LCD swap and incorporate one of your "heat reducing" suggestions .. ie drilling holes in the top left and bottom sides where most of the heat is generated. Hopefully 7 years with no heat ventilation will translate to lots of years with this mod. So, the backup unit is now back in it's box and MS No 1 is again fully operational. See the "Magicstomp Display Failure Thread" for details. Regards George |
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 8, 2015 9:24:44 GMT
Hi George,
I'm glad it worked for you, would you please, post a picture of the mod just for anyone interested to see it?
Regards,
Geza
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Post by Graylion on Sept 8, 2015 10:15:31 GMT
Sorry Didier - it doesn't work! I tried putting it in a bucket of water and it just fizzed!
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Post by Graylion on Sept 8, 2015 10:17:41 GMT
What size fan did you use Geza?
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 8, 2015 11:40:37 GMT
Hi Graylion,
I used a 40x40x10 mm one but you can see it on the pictures that I have linked in my first post.
Geza
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Post by George Lewis on Sept 8, 2015 21:41:42 GMT
Hi George, I'm glad it worked for you, would you please, post a picture of the mod just for anyone interested to see it? Regards, Geza Hi Geza, Here is a picture.  regards George |
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 8, 2015 23:37:41 GMT
Hi George, Thanks for posting it. I think you were a bit stingy with the holes like if they were made out of some precious material But this how I would've done it to make sure it can breathe freely with less restriction:  especially because it seems to me that two out of three resistors are still covered by plastic in your version. Zoltán has mentioned that the 3rd one is the hottest one, and that one CAN breathe in yours, which is good. I'm assuming that you also drilled holes on the bottom metal plate, in that case I would use the Magicstomp placed on a hard surface like a sheet metal or any hard sheet put between MS and the carpet so that the cool air can enter the MS through the bottom plate and leave on the bottom part of the side holes passing by the two hot chips. This way not just the top left but the bottom left portion of the MS will be able to breathe better using the chimney effect. Cheers, Geza |
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Post by George Lewis on Sept 9, 2015 6:25:30 GMT
Hi Geza, I tried to make the hole design look more artistic.  No holes in the bottom plate though I did briefly consider extending the transistor brass hex fittings to make contact with it like a big heat sink. The MS, together with amp sim, mixer and power packs is in the lid of an Aluminium case which makes transportation and setup very easy. The MS sits propped on it's socket edge on a piece of metal "top hat" so that it's an inch or so above the case floor and has good ventilation underneath. The switches are operated by hand. I would never use it as a foot pedal on carpet .. that's just asking for a frying of components. As a matter of interest there is now quite a deal of warm air venting from the top holes. Since it lasted 7 yrs without help, this mod will probably outlast my playing career ! Cheers George |
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 9, 2015 7:49:49 GMT
Gotcha. and in case it still dies before you outlasted your playing career, you just have to switch the shell with the virgin one on the backup unit and that will be it. Speaking of heat sink, I'm still considering it I just haven't got around to do it, you could screw a small 1 mm think copper sheet to each brass pole like in the size of 20x10mm since the copper is the best heat conductor among all metals. Of course I meant the size to be approximate only, whatever shape would fit in that space would do it. (if copper sheet isn't available, aluminum will do it too but not as efficiently as copper.) I recall that the Yamaha AG stomp and DG stomp did have a heat sink on the very same chips we're talking about:  I'm wondering why have they decided that it's no longer needed...I don't think this info will ever be made public. But even with heat sinks, the heat would've still got trapped inside the plastic case because of lack of vent holes, fan or both. Cheers, Geza |
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Sept 10, 2015 11:33:12 GMT
In the past few days I received several email messages from MS owners living in different parts of the World (but I guess, all of them infected by the same virus called "The Sound") asking me if I would share those tips that I mentioned in my first posting. Instead of replying to these folks individually I'm posting my tips here. I also added a few more pictures to the same folder to clarify a few issues. So, here we go: www.pumi.org/geza/temp/browseable/mstomp/Initially I just wanted to mention a few things that I thought are the more important ones to know about but as I kept writing it almost turned out to be a full blown instruction. It is far from being a complete instruction or some kind of "Cool Magicstomp for Dummies" but I think it contains all the necessary information for someone with average doityourself skills not to turn his MS into a piece of junk. Geza |
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Post by George Lewis on Dec 21, 2015 6:49:43 GMT
Hi Geza,
As a matter of interest just did a 4hr outside gig starting at 9:30 am finishing 1:30 pm. We were in a small gazebo open on all sides with just a wee bit of shade.
The shade temp was 34C when we started and 41C when we finished. I was concerned that the MS would collapse from the heat but the holes did the job. Didn't miss a beat ! The Bose L1 Compact also survived though being driven very hard.
It was a tough one.
Cheers
George
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Geza
Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Geza on Dec 22, 2015 0:30:55 GMT
Hi George,
I was glad to hear the good results of testing live your air cooled MS in scorching heat!
Cheers,
Geza
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Post by jimmyc on Apr 10, 2018 13:15:24 GMT
Hi Guys,
My magicstomp has a problem, it's making an awful noise when I put the leads into it, particularly when changing patch. The noise is so loud I can't use it.
Any ideas? Or is there someone close to London who could fix it for me?
Cheers,
Jim
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Post by godzilla on Apr 12, 2018 5:34:52 GMT
Hi Jim
Since your question is not really related to this old post, you might have more success if you open a new post in the Technical section.
Cheers
Keith
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I also had a feeling that the LCD died due to overheating, however my experience is that the R178 resistor, which is not so far from the LCD is getting quite hot (but I agree IC112 and IC113 on the bottom are also generating heat). I think this is not so normal. Anyone else experienced this?
