Meazzi and Vox echo unit information

[glyderslead]

Hello Paul,

Justin Harrison, of Denmark Street Guitars replied almost at once, which I have copied and pasted below:-

"Hope all is well and I’m afraid this was not personally owned by hank Marvin it is simply of Similar style he used , ie if it was owned by hank pricing would much higher in pricing

Keep well

Best Regards

Justin



Sent from my iPhone"

This is completely at odds to their advert.

You were completely right. You can't believe anyone.

Thank goodness I have a completely trustworthy H&CSE

Cheers

Mick

[fenderplucker]

I have been going over all the echo measurements for the tunes that used the model F Meazzi and found that they can all be covered by the A, B and F settings of the mode switch as follows:

A: heads 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5; feedback from head 4.
B: heads 1, 4 and 5; feedback from head 2 (variable and off in some cases).
F: heads 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5; feedback from head 2.

For tunes using settings A and F the levels of heads 2 and/or 3 are quite variable and in some cases are almost off.

Note that the only difference between this and the switch settings given in purple on pages 24 and 27 and attributed to Nigel Taylor's reading of the original SEP "F" schematic is that in position F the feedback is from head 2 rather than head 5. Could he have gotten it wrong or was it possibly a modification?

The changes from my earlier comments above are as follows: I had originally thought that QMS had a very low level echo from head 2, but I could not confirm that and now think that it was probably just the straight Apache echo, which would make sense since they were both recorded at the same time. With regard to The Stranger, the echo repeats can be indexed equally well with the feedback taken from either head 2 or head 5. If it is head 2 then it fits the pattern for settings B or F noted above. Gonzales and Mustang both have very low feedback and it is difficult to be sure if head 2, 4 or 5 was used. If 2 or 4 then they also fit the pattern.

Paul.

[philc]

A great discussion which takes us another few steps closer to the truth

Phil

[bernardj]

Hi Paul, Philc

''I think that it is great when open discussions such as these can lead to a better understanding of how these machines were used!

We are very happy with this appreciation because Patrice, Adp and I have worked to present a document that allows us to enrich ourselves in knowledge and questioning.

long live ''that sound'' !

Paul :

I'm sure you knew that the drums had been covered after a while of wear by a magnetic tape
Do you think it had a significant influence on the sound because the behavior and the alignment of the heads was probably not adapted to a change of support....?

Bernard

Google trad

[fenderplucker]

Hi Bernard, Patrice,

The question of which head in the Meazzi F was used for the feedback in setting F has been niggling at me and the answer has been staring in my face! I imagine that Patrice might have also had had this realization.

I mentioned above that the echo analysis for The Stranger indicated that the feedback could have come from either head 2 or head 5. The other two tunes that I think used this same setting are Frightened City and Blue Star, but in these the echo tails resulting from the feedback are largely hidden behind the following notes. What then if they could also have had feedback from head 5? So I recorded some sections of these three tunes with my TVS3 using either head 2 or head 5 for the feedback and indeed I could hardly tell the difference, particularly when immersed in a mix!

So I now think that my initial preference for feedback from head 2 was premature and it could equally be attributed to head 5.

This means that all of the Meazzi F echo settings used by Hank in the studio could be obtained as follows:

A: heads 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5; feedback from head 4.
B: heads 1, 4 and 5; feedback from head 2 (variable and off in some cases).
F: heads 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5; feedback from head 5.

This is now exactly the same as the switch settings given in purple on pages 24 and 27 and attributed to Nigel Taylor's reading of the original SEP "F" schematic is that in position F and I do not think that Hank's Meazzi F was modified. The varying amplitudes of the various heads and amount of feedback could all be explained by head issues and use of the internal trim pots.

With regard to the effect of changing from the coated drum to a tape-wound drum, it is likely that the different magnetic coating formulations would have had different optimum bias levels and so the sound of the echoes could be different, particularly in the high frequencies. The magnetic saturation and distortion characteristics might also differ. Also, as you mentioned, there might be differences due to head alignment. It is impossible to say how large all these effects might be without more information, but at least I would expect some change (small or large) in the high frequency extension of the echoes.

Paul.

[patrice]

Paul

A very big thank you for divulging all the latest informations you found about "F" models.
We return to the origins of factory possibilities…

Now and about the particular use of this Hank’s SEP « F » in Zambesi .
For my part, I can only believe you, since you are the "reference" in the matter both of the measurements but also of the reproduction of these characteristics with your TVS3.
Therefore, we cannot be completely sure of anything, as for the use, supposedly obligatory and unique, of the Echomatic 2/ vox ECHO past February 1961 with the joint recording of Frightned Ciy and Blue Star… Now?
If Hank uses (mostly!) his Echomatic 2 from the recording of Kon Tiki at the end of January 1961, the other good question is to know if he was able to use, in succession, two (mono speed) Echomatic 2 and not only one only ? Because :
Considering the number of concerts and recordings, as much Shadows alone as with Cliff, performed with this SEP during the years 1961, 62, 63 and (in theory) 1964, one can reasonably think, in terms of wear and reliability, that the use of a single machine is insufficient before it gives up the ghost or becomes unusable?
However, and relying on the "reference" of your measurements, we can also think that February 18, 1964, the date of the recording session at studio 2 of Zambesi and The High And The Mighty, (does it the same echo pattern used for this one in the same session ?) the Hank’s SEP/ Echomatic 2 has some troubles and needs to be revised, or that Hank and the Shadows decide to re-use (exceptionally but also for other contemporary titles, the Apache "F" model preserved and remained at stays in Abbey Road, to voluntarily "change" echo pattern ?
So many questions that Hank could perhaps answer, even if remembering such details, in the dense musical activity of this time, he can't logically remember…

Finally if I base myself on the magnetic transfer curve brought by a Binson magnetic drum compared to that of a tape on the Echomatic Meazzi in my possession, and with, for both, the same « SEP schematics (linear recording/ playback without pre-accentuation of the treble to recording) it is already the same thing except that it is not identical !
By adding that on the Meazzi the choice of the type of the tape is important since according to that used, the HF tension of polarization is most often insufficient (even set "thoroughly") to be able to reach the maximum performance at 1kHz as on a tape recorder, and which says lack of pre -magnetization voltage called stronger harmonic distortion and promoting treble, or rather what remains after 3000Hz…(!)
Not to mention this reverberation range and this unique echo halo, generated by a magnetic drum compared to the tape.
Even if, in the end (except to make some comparative measurements between my clone and the Echomatic 2 of Ben, and may be ?!) I do not know the difference in the tonal rendering that exists between a magnetic drum using a piece of tape against glued on the periphery, as on the SEP, and a Binson drum, become magnetic by using a wire (iron-based) wrapped in joint turns around its periphery .


Best regards and Merry Christmas to all.

Patrice

[fenderplucker]

Patrice, Bernard,

The High and Mighty was recorded on 18th Feb 1964 and is clearly Echomatic 2 with a dominant echo at 360 mSec and feedback from that head. Zambesi was recorded later on 28th Feb and was the only tune recorded at that session.

I want to offer you a huge vote of thanks for producing your document and your speculations that inspired me to go back and have a systematic look at all the echoes from the Meazzi F. As a result I think that we now have a much better understanding of how that machine was used. Will you be producing an updated version?

Best Regards and Merry Christmas,

Paul.

[fenderplucker]

Bernard,

I have sent you a Private Message on this site.

Paul.

[bernardj]

Paul 😀

it is very likely that an addendum of information in the light of the various exchanges will be added to the original document in some time.

merry christmas🎸

Bernard Coquelet
google trad

[fenderplucker]

The unanswered question now is what caused the variable levels mainly from heads 2 and 3 on the Meazzi F?

Was it intentional intervention to get a desired sound, or was it simply a mechanical defect (such as binding head mounting arm pivot posts, weak tension springs, floppy tension posts, head misalignment)?

Given that the effect of these two heads at low levels is very subtle, I tend to think that it might have been just mechanical defects. But who knows, maybe someone just fiddled with them to reduce their levels? I guess that we will never know for sure.

Paul.

[bernardj]

Hi Paul

this machine not being a model of reliability ...lol
your hypothesis Paul is very plausible.
but what remains remarkable is - as somatises happens in music - an unexpected weakness sometimes generates an interesting emergence
no doubt some details of this kind slip into the magic of « that sound » and leave us in our questions...

[philc]

Many thanks to Patrice, Bernard and Paul for their expertise and time regarding the Meazzi echo's, which are a big part of that sound, of course we all know that there is a lot more involved

Merry Christmas all.

Phil

[bernardj]

thank's Philc

Everyone

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year !!!

Bernard, Patrice, AdP