Meazzi and Vox echo unit information

[bernardj]

Hello

I come to this Echos thread to present a new contribution which seems important to me on the subject of Hank's echoes and particularly SEP and Vox Echo.

Like all Shadows fans, I understood that Hank Marvin's echo chambers were a big part of the magic of “That Sound”.

Everyone has in mind the names "Meazzi", "Vox Echo", "SEP", etc. but a few months ago, my friend Patrice BASTIEN, in the greatest secrecy, decided to make a real synthesis on the subject by gathering all the knowledge of the connoisseurs and experts and, by doing so, he discovered incredible things that were unknown until then!


Who would have thought that these Echoes were specially designed for Hank; that even if you owned one of these rare machines, it would be unlikely to sound like Hank's?
Who would have thought that one of the machines was in Studio 2 at Abbey Road, while the other was used on tour?
Who would have thought that very soon magnetic tapes would cover the alloy drums and so many other facts, hitherto unknown to most Shadows fans?

This document will undoubtedly be a landmark in the questioning of "That Sound".

It cannot be skimmed through because it is a document of real "knowledge" which it will be necessary to take in slowly, because all the delivered information is dense and carefully checked.

Thanks to Philip HAWTHORNE, Michel NOGRE for the translation work and Alain de Provence for P.A.O

I would like to start with this small attractive presentation YouTube in English before delivering tomorrow or the day after tomorrow the precious document, also fully translated into English
I would also like to thank Didier PAROT who welcomed me more than 3 years ago on his French forum where I was able to learn a lot of things allowing me to contribute in my turn.

see you soon for the document

Bernard from France

[bernardj]

Hello

As promised here is the download link
of the document on Hank's SEP and ECHO VOX research by Patrice BASTIEN

the document is therefore in ENGLISH.

app.box.com/s/tn3ysikabtb56f4cp2vws7zlsz2g1btp

Excellent reading taking the document because it is a document of more than 40 pages

Do not hesitate to give your feelings and your remarks to feed a nice exchange !

Thanks to Philip HAWTHORNE and Michel NOGRE for the translation work. Thanks to AdP for P.A.O

Bernard

[Hendrickx]

Thanks ! 👍

[fenderplucker]

Hi Bernard and Patrice,

Wow, congratulations, that is a monumental piece of work that provides much to think about!

After first reading a few small points come to mind:

While generally true, I am not sure that the statement that the model F was only used in the studio while the model J was used in concert is absolutely correct, since the echo timings suggest that the Model F was used on FBI on the Cliff Richard Show on 2nd March 1961, while the model J was used on some Cliff recordings. Some photos to back this up would be nice!

As indicated on the two circuit diagrams, the mic. input impedance of those machines was about 0.5 MOhm (not 1M as you indicate in the text)

You suggest that the last use of the Echomatic 2 was on The Miracle recorded in July 1964. However, I think that there is evidence of its use on some tracks of The Sound of The Shadows recorded in the first half of 1965, although these echoes are not quite so clear so maybe the machine was wearing out a bit!

One anomaly that I don't understand with Ben's Echomatic 2: I got the impression that the variable speed (via the tapered cone) is coupled directly to the pot that controls the volume of heads 1-3. However, analysis of the echoes indicates the while the levels of heads 1-3 can vary from about 8dB below head 4 (e.g. Sleepwalk) to about 1 dB below head 4 (the Miracle), there is no evidence of the echo timings (i.e. drum speed) varying in any consistent manner. Clearly Hank's machine was a single speed or did not have any such coupling (or it was disconnected). Maybe I got this wrong or Ben could clarify?

Finally, with regard to the head levels that seem to vary from what would be indicated by the schematic, in addition to the possible tweaking of internal trim pots or even circuit modifications, it should be noted that with the very small contact area between the heads and the drum (unlike tape units where the tape wraps around the head to some degree), head alignment (or mis-alignment) can also have a significant effect on echo level.

These are only small points and in no way detract from your impressive work. I'll go back and read it again to let a bit more sink in!

Best Regards,

paul.

[fenderplucker]

Just a thought, it might be a good idea to re-post this discussion under a different heading i.e. something like History of the Drum Meazzi's, but not "ESE issues" that has no bearing on the topic.

Paul.

[bernardj]

Paul, Others

Thank you very much Paul for this first reading and the judicious remarks for which Patrice will undoubtedly provide more details.

It is certain that this document can be re-read several times because it is true that it deserves reflection.

It is necessary to anticipate that this fascinating debate will perhaps be quite ''slow'' with long response times in its rhythm because we will take care to have either ''google'' translations for the exchanges if they are not too technical, or more precise translations which will be validated in good English.

I understand that it is necessary to specifically open a ''new topic'' for this discussion and I leave it to the administrator to move the subject and as he wishes.

Of course we invite - because we are well aware that there are great specialists on the subject here  - all those who wish to participate in this fascinating discussion which has the one and only purpose of removing doubts or opening up some horizons on these magic echoes !

Once again, thank you very much Paul

Bernard (and google trad..lol)

[nomick22]

Answer from Patrice Bastien,

I don't hide you that having "congratulations" from Paul Rossister (the man of the TVS3) can only make me happy...
Thanks also to Philip, the man with the Nebula Blue ! and who preceded Paul to compliment me, through Michel


To come back to Paul and if he is Australian (and therefore subject of the King of England today!) I think that he has the same perspective as me on the subject of MS.
That is to say and first of all a TECHNICAL opinion (in addition to a chronological opinion of use...)
His remark on the value of the input impedance of the microphone of the SEPs, between 0,5 M compared to 1 MOhms being anecdotal! in the sense that whatever the value of this input impedance (500KOhms or 1 MOhms = twice as much as 500K) is largely strong enough so that the single coil pickups of a Stratocaster are not under charged electrically speaking... to make them lose their brilliance.


Finally! Even though Hank may have used his "J" model when recording some of the songs he sang with Cliff in Studio 2 (which I don't deny!) I still think that his first "F" model after customization was the one used to record ALL the Shadows instrumental tracks between Apache and Frightened City /Blue Star.
The "demonstration" of the switching of the heads of this "customized" "F" model on this subject by Paul Rossiter on his site is obvious!


So if Bernard through Michel and Philip! you can post this same translated answer on the CH site thanks in advance. Because it suits me very well and it saves me from translating !!!


Regards to all
Patrice

(It's the same thing except that it's not the same)

[Charlie Hall]

Dec 12, 2022 17:00:39 GMT nomick22 said:

His remark on the value of the input impedance of the microphone of the SEPs, between 0,5 M compared to 1 MOhms being anecdotal! in the sense that whatever the value of this input impedance (500KOhms or 1 MOhms = twice as much as 500K) is largely strong enough so that the single coil pickups of a Stratocaster are not under charged electrically speaking... to make them lose their brilliance.

There will be a difference in the treble response with 500K v. 1 Meg input impedance. Just not enough difference to bother most people playing this music as it was part of the orignal sound.
Regards,
Charlie

[fenderplucker]

Finally! Even though Hank may have used his "J" model when recording some of the songs he sang with Cliff in Studio 2 (which I don't deny!) I still think that his first "F" model after customization was the one used to record ALL the Shadows instrumental tracks between Apache and Frightened City /Blue Star.

Agreed!

I had thought that Midnight might have been recorded with the model J, but analysis of the pseudo-stereo CD version showed that the echo at around 235 mSec in the mono recording (which would indicate model J) was in fact only in the right channel and probably due to the weird reverb. The guitar in the left channel only showed model F echo timings.

Paul.

[rjanuarsa]

This is very interesting. Congratulations Bernard and Patrice.
Keep talking guys. I am all ears.

Regards,
Robby

[AdP]

Hank remembers Patrice and Guitar Express store.

[bernardj]

Thank  you very much for your nice comment Robby !

Patrice, Bernard, AdP, Michel and friends

[fenderplucker]

I have had another read of the article and noticed a couple of probable typos.

On page 25 there is a table that I assume was copied from the TVS web site summarizing some of my echo measurements, but the feedback for Man of Mystery etc should be from head 4, while the heads for Frightened City etc. should be 1 + 2(low level) + 4 + 5 (i.e. head 4 instead of head 3).

Also, a note on another tune that used the model F: Giant seems to have echoes from all 5 heads but the levels of heads 2 and 3 are much lower.

So it seems to me that there are basically 3 different Model F configurations that were probably used by Hank: 1 + 4 + 5 (no feedback: Apache); 1 + 4 + 5 (feedback from head 5" The Stranger); and a bunch of tunes that used 1 + 4 + 5 with low and variable amounts from heads 2 and/or 3 and low levels of feedback possibly from heads 2 or 4 or 5). All of these would be covered by the modes A, B or F of the selector switch and either adjusting the levels of heads 2 and 3 by trim pots or simply from the misalignment of heads 2 and 3 and, in the case of Apache, simply reducing the feedback in setting B to zero. There is no evidence of any significant changes in the timing of the echoes however.

Paul.

[fenderplucker]

I just noticed that the tables on page 28 also need updating as per my note above regarding page 25 and the selector switch settings.

Also, a note on measuring echo timings and amplitudes. Some tunes with damped sections like Wonderful Land, Peace Pipe, Atlantis and The Miracle allow good estimates directly from the wave files since the echoes are well-defined and reasonable separate from the rest of the backing. However, in other cases these conditions do not apply and the echoes can be buried behind other content. Here a more detailed approach is then required. This usually involves using a spectral analysis program to separate the notes and echoes into discrete frequency channels, so that they can then be extracted from the rest of the waveform, converted back to a waveform and the analysis then performed. However, here care is still required since the various heads will most probably have different frequency responses due to wear and alignment (assuming that there are no other differences in their associated electronics). In such cases measuring the amplitudes at one frequency (say, around 1kHz) will give a different answer if they are measured at a higher frequency (say 2.5 kHz). So what is the actual meaning of head amplitude? My approach is to do as many measurements as possible and take an average.

Paul.

[garystrat]

Hi Paul,

I wondered if it might be possible to use something like the phase inversion techniques to produce an echo that’s close to the original and refine based on the differences. I recognise that the lead guitar also becomes part of the equation, but my thought is that it may cancel out/eliminate other unhelpful elements of the mix?

Regards

Gary

[fenderplucker]

Hi Gary,

There is some useful pre-processing that can be done using the spatial information of the lead guitar: e.g. if it is in the center channel and the backing split between the L and R channels then a program like Riffstation can be used to remove much of the backing. Similarly programs like Spectralayers can be used to isolate the lead as much as possible. This is what we have done to produce backings minus Hank, just the reverse. I had toyed with some cross correlation ideas but it got too complicated!

Paul.

[rjanuarsa]

Dec 14, 2022 4:18:28 GMT fenderplucker said:

I just noticed that the tables on page 28 also need updating as per my note above regarding page 25 and the selector switch settings.

Also, a note on measuring echo timings and amplitudes. Some tunes with damped sections like Wonderful Land, Peace Pipe, Atlantis and The Miracle allow good estimates directly from the wave files since the echoes are well-defined and reasonable separate from the rest of the backing. However, in other cases these conditions do not apply and the echoes can be buried behind other content. Here a more detailed approach is then required. This usually involves using a spectral analysis program to separate the notes and echoes into discrete frequency channels, so that they can then be extracted from the rest of the waveform, converted back to a waveform and the analysis then performed. However, here care is still required since the various heads will most probably have different frequency responses due to wear and alignment (assuming that there are no other differences in their associated electronics). In such cases measuring the amplitudes at one frequency (say, around 1kHz) will give a different answer if they are measured at a higher frequency (say 2.5 kHz). So what is the actual meaning of head amplitude? My approach is to do as many measurements as possible and take an average.

Paul.

Not surprisingly your approach is quite scientific Paul, hence the accurate outcomes

Robby

[garystrat]

Hi Paul,

Gosh… Riffstation, that’s a blast from the past, I tried that and similar software going way back and results tended to be variable depending on the source audio material. I know a few people have tried RIPX, reporting improved separation which is sent to audio stems (vocal and instrumental}, I would think the usual caveats applies when working with this where there are similar instrument frequencies and FX that make them difficult to separate.

They offer a free trial, so it might be worth giving it a try?

hitnmix.com

From this review it uses “combined AI machine learning with algorithmic separation software for more accurate separation/isolation”:

bedroomproducersblog.com/2021/11/12/ripx-review/

I guess that as computing power increases, the AI approach will become more advanced.

Regards

Gary

[fenderplucker]

Hi Gary,

I tried RIPX a while ago. It seemed to work quite well on tracks where there was a marked difference in the frequency range of the various components (e.g. voice, piano, drums, bass etc.) but not when there were overlapping frequencies as with rhythm and lead guitars. So I went back to Riffstation (now at version 1.6.3), though there are other programs that provide a similar function. Human intelligence still seems to trump artificial intelligence!

Paul.

[AdP]

For the Human intelligence still seems to trump artificial intelligence! Hope it lasts !

[patrice]

With a little delay (not due to SEP !)
First : Thank you all for your answers and your interest in my text..
In particular for the attention of Paul Rossiter or Charlie Hall with whom I am delighted to be able to exchange.

About the microphone input impedance on the SEPs it is (without a doubt !) 500 kOhms and not 1MOhms as I wrote (I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it, even if, in practice, it does not change much).
However, for the readers and referring to the schematics, it is the resistance wired between hot and ground of the SEP input Geloso socket, which sets this impedance. Even if the "grid current through the resistance of 4,7 MOhms = 10 times more strong than the one of 500K, comes to be connected electrically in // on that of 470k making it evolve towards a slightly lower value…
However, this resistance value of 500 kOhms (470kOhms today in standardized value) is sufficient to correctly "load" the single coil pickups of a Stratocaster in order to leave them with all their dynamics.
Conversely, I would just like to warn users of an Echorec Binson lamp since in this case, it is a 47 kOhm resistor (10 times less than that of SEPs) which is (from factory) wired between point hot and ground on each of the three input sockets of this Binson. However, with this resistance value 10 times lower, it becomes normal or not surprising, due to this insufficient electrical charge, that the natural brilliance delivered by the pickups of the Stratocaster decreases. And so that the (direct) sound becomes duller… Simple remedy to recover this natural brilliance of the SEP type: remove (cut or unsolder) this 47 kOhm resistor.

Getting to Hank:
What makes me say that his (first) "F" model was reserved for recordings at Abbey Road comes from the fact that on all known Youtube videos from the year 1960 (my friend André Duchossoir RIP had made a compilation of it) it is still his "J" model that Hank uses live... I think so (but if anyone can prove otherwise we'll have advanced) that since this Signature "J" model was easily replaceable (just in case = shock in the transport) by JMI, this is also the reason why it is this SEP "J" model that is used live.
A way also to preserve the (first) "F" model.
That said! I don't deny that this same "J" model could have been used at Abbey Road Studio 2 to record Cliff's tracks. The primary purpose of this echo chamber being to give a reverb effect of the same type as the Studio recording that can be reproduced on stage with Cliff.
And not or not yet… (?) an echo effect to the particular song from the moment when the Shadows alone will replace Cliff in the N°1 place of the charts with Apache.
And as I believe in your measurements reproduced on your site (Paul) it is and becomes obvious that for only the instrumental titles Shadows, with the model "F" (rendered after Jet Harris RIP redoubtable) "on" applies , to obtain four slightly different echo programs to allow Hank to "choose" (in the Studio...) "the" program that will best suit the tempo and the music of the recorded title.
And all this in no way prevents, since it is the "J" model which is reserved for live performances (stage or BBC) that we find this same SEP "J" model used by Hank on television in FBI the same day than their performance with Cliff...And even though for the record it was the "F" model that was used. If Hank ( trolling me in the interview ! ) could answer these questions, specifying these specific points (and now that there is a prescription!) would be even better ! (By the way say hello to my Guitar hero for me, Paul, if you meet him? It's without hard feelings !!!)

Now about Ben Van Zon's SEP/Echomatic 2.
I had myself, some difficulties to understand how these two simultaneous operations of adjusting the speed and level of the mix of the first three heads versus the fourth, was done using the Effects knob alone.
Jean Paul Caro (who has built several SEP clones) after seeing Ben's Echomatic 2 just one mouth ago, in Holland, told me the following things about how it works:
In practice, it is by pulling the axis of the Pot Effect towards you, and then turning its knob, that you mechanically adjust (by interposed cam) the speed of rotation of the drum. So by varying the positioning of the rubber roller on the conical part.
Once the "chosen" speed obtained, you have to press again on the axis of the Effect pot (the rubber drive roller remaining in place) and it is then that we adjust, by turning the "Effects" button again, the desired level of mixing.
So and in practice, you MUST first adjust the speed (if you obviously want to change it !) and then adjust the level of the mix of the first three reading heads in relation to the level of the fourth (fixed)
For my part, I think that if there was a separate mechanical adjustment to adjust ONLY the rotation speed of the drum and the Effects pot to adjust ONLY the level of the mix, no doubt that the interaction between the two would be not only easier to do and hear, but also more obvious to find...
Especially since on this SEP / Echomatic 2 model from Ben, we can only shorten the times of the four rebounds since it is on the position of its slowest speed that we obtain the echo song of the Echomatic 2 by Hank…


Finally and if I base myself on my clone (or even on the four that I have built) from a all tubes Binson PE 603 ​​to make it a SEP Echomatic 2 there is no doubt that from one lap to another of the drum, the relative playback level of each of the heads changes but also the "instantaneous" wow, leading to this "flange/chorus" effect which is difficult to reproduce since, on SEP, it varies constantly and from one completely random...


Regards
Patrice

[fenderplucker]

Hi Patrice,

Thanks for that explanation about the operation of Ben's Echomatic 2, it makes sense. I wonder if Hank's was the same or just a single speed model?

Regards,

Paul.

[AdP]

Dec 15, 2022 13:54:42 GMT fenderplucker said:

Hi Patrice,

Thanks for that explanation about the operation of Ben's Echomatic 2, it makes sense. I wonder if Hank's was the same or just a single speed model?

Paul.

See page 14.

Regards.

[glyderslead]

For those that may be interested,

I have just received an email from Denmark Street Guitars, who deal in vintage and rare guitars amps and effects, in which they advertise for sale a Meazzi Stereomatic echo. They state it was given to Hank by Dick Denny and he used it for Apache and many of his early hits.

Cheers

Mick

[glyderslead]

The details are as follows.

Denmark Street Guitars email address:- [e-mail]

The price they are asking is £3299.00

Just for the record, I am not connected to this company at all and am not in receipt of any form of payment.

[fenderplucker]

Hank never used a Stereomatic Meazzi.

[fenderplucker]

When I first analyzed the echoes on Zambesi, it appeared that they could have been from an Echomatic 2 running at a slower speed than was normal for Wonderful Land etc. This seemed possible since the Echomatic 2 was being used at the time on other tunes. However, Ben has stated that his Echomatic 2 gives the Wonderful Land timings when already set on its lowest speed, so a further reduction in speed seems unrealistic. So I went back to look at the echoes again and found that, apart from the low level echoes and dominant one at about 420 mSec, there was indeed another one at about 600 mSec. I could then get a good index of all the echo timings according to a Model F with feedback from head 4. The amplitudes of the echoes were -14dB at at 280 mSec, -20 dB at 330 mSec, 0 dB at 425 mSec, and -20 dB at 603 mSec, The echo at 120 mSec is buried in the tail of the staccato note itself and so its exact timing and amplitude is not certain. For some reason, either intentional adjustment or wear, the machine was only giving a clear echo on head 4. While the addition of the echo at 603 mSec makes little difference to the sound, its presence and correct indexing of all the other echo timings (except the one buried 120 mSec) clearly indicates that the Model F on mode setting A was used for this tune.

So it seems that Hank had dusted off the Model F to use one more time on the recording of Zambesi on 28th Feb, 1964, probably to get the longer delay time of around 420 mSec for the main echo and repeats than were available from the Echomatic 2, and that better suited the tempo of that tune.

I think that it is great when open discussions such as these can lead to a better understanding of how these machines were used!

Incidentally, while Flingel Bunt was recorded just a few days earlier on 25th Feb 1964, the Model F echo timings do not seem to match the recording at all, though curiously the Vox Long Tom does very well.

Paul.

[fenderplucker]

Patrice, are you considering a revised version of your document?


Paul.

[fenderplucker]

Dec 15, 2022 19:40:59 GMT AdP said:

Dec 15, 2022 13:54:42 GMT fenderplucker said:

Hi Patrice,

Thanks for that explanation about the operation of Ben's Echomatic 2, it makes sense. I wonder if Hank's was the same or just a single speed model?

Paul.

See page 14.

Regards.

Thanks AdP, I thought that I might have seen that comment somewhere else and forgot that it was here!

Paul.

[glyderslead]

Thank you for your reply Paul.

Clearly you do not believe this is worth looking in to.

However, I have sent a query to them asking where they got their information from.

Cheers

Mick