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Post by martyn on Dec 25, 2009 23:55:47 GMT
Having watched some of the guitar setup videos on YouTube, it was interesting to note a couple of the 'experts' suggesting a floating system wasn't necessary nor was it to be recommended if keeping one's guitar in perfect tune was important. I've always had mine set so I can both raise and lower the arm to vibrate the notes, but their idea was to have the unit sitting flush with the body so one could only lower the arm to bend the notes downward, which would be sufficient. It was alleged that tuning difficulties usually arose only from raising the arm, thus stretching the strings, when most often the pitch wouldn't return to tune but remain slightly sharp. Having it only able to bend downwards eliminated this problem and with nowhere to go upwards, the strings would remain at a fixed tension and remain in tune. Anybody have any opinions on this? Cheers, Martyn
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 26, 2009 0:02:19 GMT
Hi Martyn, The bridge must definitely float to play Hank's style. Jimi Hendrix had it flat to the body. The advantage with having the bridge flat to the body is that you can continue to play in tune if a string breaks. I have used both ways so I know from experience. Paul Reed Smith made an interesting video some years ago about his guitars. He said if the strings go out of tune due to tremolo use, pull the arm up as far as it will go and it should correct it. This does work if the nut is well set up, and of course, if the bridge is floating. In fact I do this when tuning up before a gig, then retune and repeat until it is stable. Regards, Charlie
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Post by garystrat on Dec 26, 2009 9:02:50 GMT
Hi Martyn
I have also tried the the bridge in the flat position based on the advise of an early guitar instructor, Charlie is absolutely right and it certainly wasn't for me.
Fender Strats are designed to have 4 mm spacing under the bridge, which not only stops the arm from knocking the head on the return, but pretty much puts the tremolo arm in the right position. Charlie will perhaps confirm, but I wasn't experienced enough at the time to know if it made the intonation more difficult.
I was also surprised when tried another leading members guitar at a club event to find that he had set his even higher, I found this difficult, but it seems to work for him. Interestingly he has a modified nut with some form of metal roller bearing arrangement, which seems to be a more effective way to go, but I'm not keen on modifications that may not be reversible.
Gary
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Post by bill on Dec 26, 2009 14:35:04 GMT
Hi Martyn, I've always believed that having the 'tremolo' system on a Strat flat to the body helped it stay in tune so that is how I set mine up. It's more important to me that it stay in tune than to be able to vary the pitch up and down around the fretted note with the 'tremolo' arm. I was interested to see Charlie's response that Hendrix had his flat to the body, I knew there had to be *something* Hendrix and I had in common ;-)
On the other hand, my Burns Brian May guitar is set up to float and it stays in tune.
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 26, 2009 23:56:08 GMT
Hi Gary, The bridge saddle heights and probably the intonation as well should be adjusted to suit a new bridge position. Regards, Charlie
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Post by noelford on Dec 27, 2009 7:27:47 GMT
Am I just lucky? Six of my guitars have trems, all 'floating', and I never have tuning problems. I often use the arm quite vigorously as well as doing a lot of bending and vibrato with the left hand, too. Only one of my guitars has locking tuners.
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Post by garystrat on Dec 27, 2009 9:03:14 GMT
Hi Charlie
It seems logical to me that when doing intonation with the bridge flat, the saddles need to be adjusted forward to get the correct string length, when I first got my Mexican Strat I found that even with the bridge raised I had problems adjusting these because they were just touching the front pivot screws.
I think they must have been out at the start because now I use the measuring technique for the "E" string and work back from there, they seem further back. Interestingly, I don't seem to get many tuning problems, but I do use white guitar graphite on the nut.
Gary
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Post by asimmd on Dec 27, 2009 10:50:16 GMT
I have 3 strats,Custom Shop - Classic Player 50's and one I built myself.
All have Floating Trems and I Never Never have a problem with them going out of tune.
This applies to any guitar if it's set up properly.
There are horror stories about Strats being binned because they don't stay in tune,if the owners would just have a little patience and take time to adjust them properly they would work just fine.
Also,I don't think Fender would sell as many Strats as they do if the trem was that difficult to set up.
Alan
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Post by martyn on Dec 27, 2009 11:24:02 GMT
Six of my guitars have trems, all 'floating', and I never have tuning problems. Six - did you say six? How many do you have in total and what are they? Mind boggled Martyn
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Post by clivea on Dec 29, 2009 11:10:43 GMT
Is there a standard method of setting up a floating trem? Rgds - Clive
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 29, 2009 21:57:55 GMT
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Post by jastreet on Dec 29, 2009 23:45:38 GMT
Hi Clive, The 'standard' method is described on the Fender website, as Charlie mentioned, but I think everyone probably has their own variation on how to adjust the tremolo, based on their individual playing style and/or the tunes they play most commonly. For Shadows tunes, the tremolo must float, so that you can raise and lower the pitch of a note with movement of the tremolo arm. I have a couple of Stratocasters fitted with the American Deluxe floating tremolo system. I use 10-46 strings and three tremolo springs arranged in parallel. I don't angle the tremolo claw. I start by first tuning the guitar to concert pitch, and then adjusting the tremolo claw screws so that I can raise the note of the top E-string one semitone by lifting the tremolo arm to the limit of its upward movement. That seems to give an appropriate range for my style. Afterwards, I retune and recheck/readjust the action and intonation, as described in the Stratocaster setup guide. www.fender.com/support/stratocaster_setup_guide.php I have never had any problems with tuning stability, despite the floating bridge. Regards, James
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Post by noelford on Dec 30, 2009 8:40:32 GMT
Six of my guitars have trems, all 'floating', and I never have tuning problems. Six - did you say six? How many do you have in total and what are they? Mind boggled Martyn Well, I know a few people who have a lot more than me but as I like to keep all my guitars out of their cases and played regularly, I've kept my collection to just a dozen (if you count the Hagstrom Jumbo that's in pieces at the moment). My more recent are a Masterbuilt Strat, A Burns Apache and a Variax 700. The rest are mostly vintage, dating between the mid-sixties and eighties. and include an American Vintage Series Strat and Gibsons (335, SG Special, Barney Kessel and Firebird). As I told my wife, they're a great investment!
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Post by clivea on Dec 30, 2009 8:48:03 GMT
Thanks for the advice chaps. I've successfully reset trem which is now floating beautifully. Rgds - Clive
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Post by martyn on Dec 30, 2009 15:33:06 GMT
My more recent are a Masterbuilt Strat, A Burns Apache and a Variax 700. The rest are mostly vintage, dating between the mid-sixties and eighties. and include an American Vintage Series Strat and Gibsons (335, SG Special, Barney Kessel and Firebird). As I told my wife, they're a great investment! I tried that line with my wife too - the expression on her face said it all . . . I'd be interested to know, since you have a few to compare personally, which of your strats you feel gets closest to the sound we think we're all chasing - and why. Also if any have proved a disappointment for whatever reason. Cheers, Martyn
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Post by noelford on Dec 30, 2009 17:15:17 GMT
Well. Martyn, I love both my Strats, and the American Vintage has a great sound for non-shads instros. However, without any doubt, the Custom Shop Masterbuilt (Yuriy Shishkov with PUs wound by Abigail Ybarra), really hits the spot for Shads stuff, especially when played through my Atomic power amp via PodXTL modelling a Vox AC15, and Alesis GT with EFTP. It definitely has that percussive 'quack'. I'm sure it's totally down to Abigail!
No disappointments in my current collection. I did sell my 1963 Gretsch Chet Atkins Tennessean to help finance the Masterbuilt, but the only reason I opted for that one was that I could never get used to those odd fretboard markers, right on the edge of the board!
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Post by garystrat on Dec 30, 2009 17:37:28 GMT
Hi Martyn
I would just love to see how you get that custom shop Strat sanctioned.
Always willing to learn from a master!
Gary
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Post by peterbower on Dec 30, 2009 18:26:22 GMT
Hi Martyn Hope you don't mind my two penneth on this subject. I noticed that the question was raised as to which Strat got closest to 'that sound'. For what its worth, my 1982 Tokai Strat [copy of a 63 with rosewood vaneered fret board] comes closest to that sound in my collection. Peter
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Post by martyn on Dec 30, 2009 19:34:49 GMT
Hi Noel, Intrigued that the American Vintage doesn't give you the Shads sounds, given I imagine that's pretty much the equivalent to what Hank would have been using back around the same time I had my own US strat - wonder why that is and what's missing or lacking that doesn't create the right tones? I'd certainly expect the Masterbuilt to produce the results but am often surprised how a not very expensive body with 'average' pickups can often produce impressive results. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw sometimes and certain body woods/necks/electrics just happen to click whereas the next guitar from the same assembly line doesn't.
Hi Gary, Yes I'm going to have major issues with 'her indoors' if a custom shop strat suddenly appears from the ether unannounced. I can see the medical report now expressing wonderment at how a guitar could possibly be inserted into such a small cavity and with such apparent vigour . . .
Hi Peter, Just goes to show it doesn't have to have Fender written on it to do the job properly. Any clues as to what you think are the magic ingredients on that Tokai that produce the desired results?
Cheers all, Martyn
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Post by noelford on Dec 30, 2009 21:57:32 GMT
Martyn, the American Vintage does indeed produce a good Shads tone, it's just that the Masterbuilt is noticeably closer. I was always happy with the former for Shads stuff but now, for classic Shads, I prefer the latter. I don't just mean 'That Sound': I have never been fanatical about that particular Holy Grail, but there is no doubting the Masterbuilt sound is beautiful.
I agree that cost of a guitar doesn't necessarily mean better sound. When I was seduced back into playing, just after I was married, and having flogged my 1964 Gibson ES345 some years previously (Aghhhhh!), all I could afford was a forty quid Telecaster copy. I was playing in a dinner-dance band and the guy doing the cabaret one night was playing the genuine article, but he swore mine sounded better.
Gary, on the subject of 'sanctioning' expensive guitars, I am extremely lucky to have a wife who actually encouraged me to buy them – and not because of the 'investment' ploy! I must have been good in a previous life!
Cheers all and Happy New Year
Noel
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Post by peterbower on Dec 31, 2009 8:54:06 GMT
Hi Martyn
Re my Tokai, quite honestly, i don't think there is a 'magic' ingrediant that one could say gives it that sound. I suspect its a combination of several factors. What i have noticed is; the body is Alder and the paint finish seems quite thin as i can see the wood grain through the finish in certain lights and angles. I'm not sure what type of paint it is, but its probably not Nitro. The trem block is steel and the pickups are copies of early 60's Fender with grey fibre board base plates, staggered poles with bevelled tops and the coil wire is a deep mauve/purple colour. All the wiring including pickup wiring is the ready tinned cloth covered stuff. The switch is a direct copy of a Fender '3' position switch. The pots are 250 K and the same size as US ones. The capacitor is 0.049Mf. The neck has a vaneered rose wood board rather than a slab board and is only about 3-mm thick. The guitar has Tokai written in a spaghetti fashion on the head stock and the words Gold Star Sound. There is a production number on the heel plate which i checked out on the Tokai Registery, and it is a copy of a 63 Strat. No wonder Fender sued them. The colour is Torino red according to the Tokai info. Last but not least, it used to belong to Ray Davis of the Kinks. Peter
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Post by hubert on Dec 31, 2009 9:37:59 GMT
Hi all ;D, this is a very nice option to set up the whammy bar/tremolo, it is from Carl Verheyen on Youtube, Happy New Year for all of You, Hubert. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-F7iSIopA
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Post by kipper on Dec 31, 2009 10:31:14 GMT
thanks for putting this up hubert very intresting will give a go. peter
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Post by martyn on Dec 31, 2009 11:57:09 GMT
Makes it look so simple, doesn't he! I'll give this idea a go and see what results I get. Thanks for the link. Cheers, Martyn
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Post by Charlie Hall on Dec 31, 2009 13:13:22 GMT
He is an excellent player. I use the same basic intervals for pitch increase, concentrating mainly on the 3 semitones of the G string. Not so sure about angling the claw though. I do have my 3 springs in a V configuration to give a different tension for the outer 2 strings compared with the middle one, which is supposed to help the termolo to self centre better when returning to pitch. Regards, Charlie
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Post by Bojan Drndic on Dec 31, 2009 18:09:30 GMT
Charlie, when you say "V" configuration, in what direction does the "V" point, in other words, does the "V" converge in the claw or in the tremolo block?
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Post by kipper on Dec 31, 2009 19:51:10 GMT
i have just set my jv fender strat to float. spent a bit of time doing it, well worth the time. never floated before always flat down. floating has inproved this guitar. i have just brought a wilkinson trem wth heavy sreel block and staggered string holes pop in arm. looks a nice thing i will let you now what its like after i have fitted it to a strat i am making up. peter
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Post by Charlie Hall on Jan 1, 2010 4:02:52 GMT
Hi Bojan, The springs converge at the claw on my Strats. I think if they were to converge at the block, the bridge might tend to rock sideways with tremolo use. Regards, Charlie
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Post by john44 on Jan 1, 2010 7:33:04 GMT
Hi Charlie , Martyn and everyone I think I must be blessed with tremelo staying in tune I have heard all the stories about Bigsby systems going out of tune My Guild Starfire 3 is now 40 years old and never goes out of tune its always pitch perfect after a good session of use back in the case and comes out perfect sometimes months later. It was the same with my Maton Ibis I owend 40 plus years ago
Now about my strats I own six variations of Squires all with floating tremelo systems and never a problem with tuning I also own a handfull of Aria , and Ibenaz strats of various vintages and dont have a problem I have recently acquired 2 57ri japanese strats but I have not adjusted the tremelo to a floater as yet but I intend to soon The guitar I seem to have most tuning probles with is an Epiphone Les Paul11that constantly needs tuning and has no tremelo system at all Maybe I am just lucky but everyone seems to bag Bigsby and Floating Fender systems but I have never had a problem yet Particularly with the Bigsby after playing Shaking all over where the tremelo gets its neck wrung off constantly Cheers John44 Ps Guys I just pulled out one of my favourites an Indonsion made Squire Fat strat went into the case after a good workout six months or more ago and comes out perfectly in tune floating tremelo an all
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Post by peterbower on Jan 1, 2010 9:14:55 GMT
Just a small point re the trem springs.
Trevor Wilkinson [of Wilkinson trem fame] recommends that the trem springs should run straight and parallel rather than converge or diverge. He says running straight reduces friction to a minimum. As an engineer, I can see his point. If you read his tech notes he says that a spring that runs at an angle between the claw and the block is only about 80% efficiant, where as running straight its about 98% efficiant, bearing in mind that 100% efficiant is unobtainable. Basic physics according to Trev.
Peter
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